What do you consider a 'sincere' apology?

[Gypsy]

When I was a kid my mom sat me down for my first “adult” conversation. About sincere apologies.

There are several kinds of apologies. Here are the most typical.

1. I am sorry for my behavior or words. I understand why it was wrong. And I will strive not to do it again. Please forgive me.

2. I am sorry you took offense to what I said/did. I still feel I was right to do/say what I did. But I am sorry for your reaction. Please stop being mad at me.

3. I am sorry I got caught doing something wrong. Even though it was wrong, I will probably do it again. I will just try not to get caught next time. Please stop being mad at me.


Personally, the first type is the only one I consider a “real” apology. It is the only one that results in actual behavior change. And that is the ONLY one that really is ASKING for forgiveness. Therefore it is the only one type of trespass/harm/hurt that truly, IMO, can be forgiven, because its the only where the behavior/words themselves are sincerely regretted.

IMO, nuber 2 is not a 'real' apology. The person apologizing is stating outright that they think the problem is YOU. Your reaction. They take no ownership that the problem is them, and in fact think they are justified. Their only regret is that you aren't reacting they way they think you should, and the only reason they are saying they are sorry is so that you stop being mad. To me this is insincere.

Number 3 is even worse than 2, and completely insincere. And manipulative to boot.

How about you?

 

[zoebartlett]

I think a sincere apology is when people say they're sorry for the action they took and then says what they'll do differently in the future. I think that's the same as your #1.

 

[Kaleigh]

#1. You own your actions and apologize. Anything that is well I am sorry but... Isn't any kind of an apology...

 

[Skippy123]

I think just saying "I am sorry" works.

 

[aljdewey]

I do think #2 can be a genuine apology as well; the devil is in the details. You can be sorry that someone is hurt by your actions, behaviors or words even though you wouldn't change them.

One example I can think of: we decided not to have extended family at our wedding. I know my aunt was really hurt by it, and I do feel badly that she was hurt but i still feel it was the right decision for us to make. The decision was about choosing what was right for us, and I don't regret it at all, but I do feel sorry that it hurt her feelings.

For my money, there are very few times when it's as clear-cut as "one person is right and the other is wrong". Most things I know of just aren't that black and white. I don't feel that sincerity means having to abandon one's convictions.

 

[zoebartlett]

I hadn't thought about #2, but it could count as an apology I suppose. I don't count it as sincere though if the other person wants you to admit guilt. This is one my husband and I use when we firmly believe we're right about something but we want to move on from a disagreement.

 

[mogster]

"I am sorry that I..." = apology.

"I am sorry that you..." ≠ apology.

 

[Kaleigh]

I agree, hard to say all fits one or two. But I think if you are really sorry, you just say so. And perhaps explaining why you did or said what you did is great. Just don't guilt the person into thinking how you do?

There are many times where you see one thing one way, the other sees it the other way. You can apologize and still meet the middle of the road agreeing to disagree.

Also for the person wanting the perfect apology? It doesn't happen often and you need to pick your battles. Life is short.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

In the case of the reason you were spurred to post this, #1 would be the correct answer. However, I am not holding my breath on that one.

 

[Gypsy]

I think just saying "I am sorry" works.

You are a lot easier than I am then. I always have to know "why are you sorry?" Are you sorry because you got caught? because you were wrong, or because you didn't like my reaction.




Regarding #2 apologies. I think does depend on the details. A) Was it avoidable B) Did you handle it with sensitivity and empathy? C) Would you avoid doing it again if you could.



My feeling is that if it WAS avoidable, it was NOT handled with sensitivity and you would not avoid doing it again if you could then... not sincere.

 

[madelise]

Both #1 and #2. Often, I want to apologize for hurting others, but I would not take back what I did for whatever reason. It doesn't mean that I don't wish I didn't hurt them for any reason, but am not willing to pretend I wish I didn't do or say whatever it is that I believed was right for me. I don't feel it's any less of a sincere apology. Of course, I would never word it as, "I'm sorry that YOU felt that way..", more like "I'm sorry I hurt you, that's definitely not my intention. I care about you a lot, and I am apologizing for hurting you because I never want to hurt someone I care about." I wouldn't shove my own intentions down their throat after their pain, and would focus on purely apologizing for the pain.

Thanks for this post, Gypsy. It's not something most people stop to think about.

 

[VapidLapid]

this thread turns out to be specific, not general and hypothetic.
I remove myself from it.

 

[Rockdiamond]

It is a great discussion.
I hope I was invited in, if not please excuse my post.
Some actions- violent ones come to mind- can't be explained away under any circumstances in my book and the only "real" apology is #1
However in many other, less severe instances, such as a spirited discussion, I am with those that say that number two may be a very sincere apology.
It's important to be true to your own beliefs and morals.
Also important to note, given this venue, that different manners of speech are easy to misunderstand simply based on regional or cultural differences in language- this gets even more difficult when we look at written words.

 

[zoebartlett]

In the case of the reason you were spurred to post this, #1 would be the correct answer. However, I am not holding my breath on that one.

Annnnndddd, nope. I don't think it's coming.

 

[Gypsy]

My feeling is: Your actions speak louder than your words.

You can SAY you are sorry all you want.


I'm sorry I cheated on you.
I'm sorry I lost my temper and hit you.
I'm sorry I was verbally abusive.


Any of those. If your apology is number 2, no matter what the 'details' doesn't work. Because you aren't taking ownership that YOU are the problem. And even if it is number 1, it doesn't work if you do it again, that cancels out the apology.

To RD, since you did post. What you don't seem to realize is that your posts are actually violent, because they are verbally abusive.

There are a multitude of ways for you to convey your convictions in a manner that is non-abusive. You just chose to ignore them all justifying this abuse by placing your passion and your feelings above the security and feelings of others. This is not okay week after week. It's okay one time. It's okay two times. With a real (#1) apology. It's okay if you get help. It's okay AFTER you stop. But you don't stop, and it's been more than 20 times.

You. Are. Abusive. And I know you don't see that. And that's sad to me.

And just because your actual fists do not strike actual flesh does not make you less violent. Frankly, and I mean this sincerely, you scare me. Really and for true. I would not enter your shop, approach you at a GTG, or want to meet you personally because I am actually afraid of you. YOU, personally: David.

I really think you should be banned and I am saddened that Andrey has not done so, because by not stopping it he is condoning it. And that sends the wrong message. Not just to you, but to other vendors.

This is not a leaving PS post, but if this continues and you aren't banned PS will lose both new posters and old posters. Because I've got news for you: I'm not paid to be here. And neither is Charmy or any other victim of yours. And we will leave if they continue to let you run amok.

 

[madelise]

My feeling is: Your actions speak louder than your words.

You can SAY you are sorry all you want.


I'm sorry I cheated on you.
I'm sorry I lost my temper and hit you.
I'm sorry I was verbally abusive.


Any of those. If your apology is number 2, no matter what the 'details' doesn't work. Because you aren't taking ownership that YOU are the problem. And even if it is number 1, it doesn't work if you do it again, that cancels out the apology.

Gypsy: I know you're battling another agenda with this post, but I'm taking your OP as a surface conversational topic.. so sorry if I'm derailing this a bit.

I agree that actions speak louder than words, 100%. However, not all people interpret actions and words the same way, so sometimes the doer/apologizer is in the right, in their own way, while at the same time, the offended is also correct in their own way. A #2 apology is the best way to absolve any incongruence, and allow the two to communicate about that inconsistency, and move forward.

One of my favorite lessons from Oprah is pretty darn cheesy, but here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqbbSCw7-tI&feature=share&list=PL21CFBB28A06C9AE4

I truly do believe that coming and apologizing to people with your tail between your legs is a CAREfrontation (snort, that sounds so cheesy!), even if you do believe 100% that you are right in your own ways. Extending the olive branch is also an action, not just a word. Apologies are never easy, so I always give the benefit of the doubt when someone doesn't say "enough" when apologizing. They care enough to confront the conflict. They care enough to put themselves into someone else's shoes to attempt to understand their pain.

BUTTTTTT… back to your agenda at hand, I agree, DR has turned me off a lot with his posts. I was shocked when I read Charmy's thread. I do feel it is bullying… and am confused at his agenda. I can't wrap my head around what he feels his comments would bring other than frustration from what would have been potential clients.

 

[Haven]

We have a saying in my family: "Don't be sorry, change your behavior."

Apologies are nice, but they only seem sincere to me when they are followed up with a behavior change. (Unless we're talking about a strange accidentally stepping on my toe in public, in which case an "I'm sorry" are all it takes.)

ETA: I just read your latest post Gypsy. Sorry I missed that before I posted. I don't know the back story, but my original response (above) remains the same. Apologies mean nothing if the behavior remains the same.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I can honestly say that I am proud of most of what I've written on PS- EXCEPT what I posted on Charmy's thread.
Looking back over it now, I could have found a far less confrontational way of expressing my point initially, then there were perfect chances for me to leave the discussion, yet I did not.
I feel terrible about it, sincerely.

I will redouble my efforts to express my opinion thoughtfully in a way that is respectful to all viewpoints.
I hope to add a lot more useful content to this vibrant community.

 

[Gypsy]

My feeling is: Your actions speak louder than your words.

You can SAY you are sorry all you want.


I'm sorry I cheated on you.
I'm sorry I lost my temper and hit you.
I'm sorry I was verbally abusive.


Any of those. If your apology is number 2, no matter what the 'details' doesn't work. Because you aren't taking ownership that YOU are the problem. And even if it is number 1, it doesn't work if you do it again, that cancels out the apology.

Gypsy: I know you're battling another agenda with this post, but I'm taking your OP as a surface conversational topic.. so sorry if I'm derailing this a bit.

I agree that actions speak louder than words, 100%. However, not all people interpret actions and words the same way, so sometimes the doer/apologizer is in the right, in their own way, while at the same time, the offended is also correct in their own way. A #2 apology is the best way to absolve any incongruence, and allow the two to communicate about that inconsistency, and move forward.

One of my favorite lessons from Oprah is pretty darn cheesy, but here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqbbSCw7-tI&feature=share&list=PL21CFBB28A06C9AE4

I truly do believe that coming and apologizing to people with your tail between your legs is a CAREfrontation (snort, that sounds so cheesy!), even if you do believe 100% that you are right in your own ways. Extending the olive branch is also an action, not just a word. Apologies are never easy, so I always give the benefit of the doubt when someone doesn't say "enough" when apologizing. They care enough to confront the conflict. They care enough to put themselves into someone else's shoes to attempt to understand their pain.

BUTTTTTT… back to your agenda at hand, I agree, DR has turned me off a lot with his posts. I was shocked when I read Charmy's thread. I do feel it is bullying… and am confused at his agenda. I can't wrap my head around what he feels his comments would bring other than frustration from what would have been potential clients.

Don't worry about agendas. I had more than one, and one of them is thoughtful discourse so that works.

IMO and apology IS an action. But it's a canceling one. You did something wrong, so you apologize. The actions cancel themselves out.
If you then go and do it again and again. Then you cancel out that apology and each time you do it, it's a greater wrong, because you know you are wrong, you know it hurts, and you keep doing it anyway.

So it's like this.

Bad Action. -1
Apology. +1
Same Bad Action . -2 (because you should KNOW BETTER this time)
Apology for Same Bad Action with no intent to fix what you did wrong last two times: +/- 0.
Same Bad Action. -3 (cause now you've apologized TWICE and are still doing it).
-- score--
-5

Now if you are someone I love, like a good friend or my husband, I don't keep score. But if you aren't one of those people and all I have to judge you by is your actions and words over the net: you bet you end up negative column and I end up avoiding you to say the least.



__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

RD. Then that's what you should have said. "I was wrong. I recognize that. I will not do it again." But you didn't say that. You said: "I was upset and I'm sorry you got offended by my tone." No. That's just an excuse and transferring the blame to someone else. Also abusive, for the record.

And if you think that's the first time its happened, I think that's sad too. Because it is not the first time. And the fact that you don't realize that just makes it scarier for me. Because not only are you being abusive but you are in denial about it too. I can't count the number of times the moderators have had to delete your comments because they've crossed the line in a big way. And right now I wish they didn't so I could go back and find them and post them to you so you could see what we see. Cause you clearly just do not realize how "not okay' the things you say and how you say them are. And if someone hasn't held a mirror up to your face before, out of caring for you, so that you could see what others see and fix it, then I think that's the saddest thing of all.

 

[marcy]

I think number 1 applies most of the time, but I can see some circumstances where number 2 would apply.

 

[MyDiamondSparkles]

It's only #1 for me.

Along with what Gypsy's Moms taught her, for my own children I also added:

1. When speaking, carefully choose your words.
2. Not everything you think needs to be said.
3. And finally, because some of the most heated arguments and hurtful statements take place when someone is trying to prove they are right:- and this has nothing to do with anything on this forum, it's just something I tell my children-- it's okay to know you are right and keep it to yourself. It's NOT okay to say hurtful things to others to prove how right you are-- that my dears, is just plain wrong.

 

[madelise]

What about something you CAN'T change? For instance, I do not believe in god. Apparently, that is very offensive to some people I care a lot about. I can apologize for hurting those who love me, that truly have their hearts broken over my beliefs, but I will not change. Another: I refuse to change my last name to SO's when we are married. This hurts many people, luckily not SO himself. I can apologize that I hurt them, and I am truly apologetic about their hurt, but that doesn't mean I am not 100% believing I am also right. They're not not allowed to be upset, and I'm not not allowed to keep my stance. These are two minor examples of where I can say a #2 apology is best fit. I'm sure there are a million others. We hurt/offend people around us all the time, from choices about our clothing (there was a thread just very recently on leggings), to where we choose to move away to, to beliefs, religions, politics... Everything. Currently, my whole FB feed is an electric-fist fight about gun control. People are pissing each other off, and I know of a few ladies who were very close and are now not speaking bc of how sensitive a time it is to be arguing the differences of opinions over fun control. I am in strong opinion that none of them change their stances just bc it hurts others, but that they still apologize for hurting each other while being conflicted.

 

[maccers]

I'd like my post deleted from this thread as this is not really meant to be general discussion question but a loaded question. I feel a bit foolish for posting previously when I didn't realize there was a completely different agenda.

 

[Rosebloom]

It's only #1 for me.

Along with what Gypsy's Moms taught her, for my own children I also added:

1. When speaking, carefully choose your words.
2. Not everything you think needs to be said.
3. And finally, because some of the most heated arguments and hurtful statements take place when someone is trying to prove they are right:- and this has nothing to do with anything on this forum, it's just something I tell my children-- it's okay to know you are right and keep it to yourself. It's NOT okay to say hurtful things to others to prove how right you are-- that my dears, is just plain wrong.

I'm filing this advice away. Good for my kids and for me too!

 

[madelise]

I'd like my post deleted from this thread as this is not really meant to be general discussion question but a loaded question. I feel a bit foolish for posting previously when I didn't realize there was a completely different agenda.

If you want any of your posts deleted, click on "report concern" on your post and let a Mod know. HTH

 

[kenny]

When an apology is given I judge it to be sincere, or not.
It is a sense.

I'm not psychic and I can't cut into their brain to examine their sincerity brain cells.
I may be wrong, but my judgement and sense is all I have.

 

[JewelFreak]

#1 is the only real apology. The others are excuses. #2 is acceptable if you say something along the lines of "I'm truly sorry I hurt you; I should have phrased what I said much better. I did not mean it the way it sounded." The apologizer is still taking responsibility for the action rather than putting it on the apologizee (new technical word).

Abraham Lincoln, a master of human relations & compassion, once said his philosophy was, "Apologize when you're wrong. Apologize when you're not sure if you're wrong. Apologize when you're sure you're right." He was big enough to do it. I don't think most of us are, pretty sure I'm not, although I have done the way I recommend for #2 fairly often, and meant it sincerely.

 

[Skippy123]

I'd like my post deleted from this thread as this is not really meant to be general discussion question but a loaded question. I feel a bit foolish for posting previously when I didn't realize there was a completely different agenda.

Gypsy, I hope you apologize to maccers since he is feeling hurt by how this thread went and being about apologizing and all. I actually didn't know this thread had ulterior motive, or I probably wouldn't have answered either. I have had too much drama (I knew parent in the school shooting) , so I would of stayed out of this thread (my heart has been hurting lately). . . I understand David's post was unnecessary but bringing it here is unnecessary and taking it to a different direction than originally posted. I like you and respect you, but this is was not fair.

 

[justginger]

When an apology is given I judge it to be sincere, or not.
It is a sense.

I'm not psychic and I can't cut into their brain to examine their sincerity brain cells.
I may be wrong, but my judgement and sense is all I have.

Agreed. In real life, I think it is fairly easy to ascertain who means their apologies and who does not, based on everything from eye contact to inflection. Over the internet? A whole different kettle of fish. I tend to (naively?) take people at their word.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I can see that some here who aren't on RT all the time have not seen the pattern of behavior that Gypsy and I have seen. If you haven't seen it, then you will not understand.