What are your thoughts on how government is handling COVID-19

[redwood66]

I like that seven of the NE states are combining forces to help with the decision when to reopen our states and how to do it.

That is fine and they should work together especially since they are all so affected. Trump has no say in that.

 

[arkieb1]

This thread has taken a turn that is giving me mixed signals. There was plenty of discussion of how states should not open on their own but now calling Trump a dictator for saying he is the only one who can open things up. No Trump cannot tell the states to open or to stayed closed. Saying so makes him look like an idiot which is how he looks whenever he opens his yap on the fly.

What do you want? Other than the obvious - Trump not as POTUS.

I don't think American has a choice, the states have leaders far far more competent at decision making than Trump is, if you had a President that could lead everyone cohesively that would be a different story. And I don't buy this B/S that the states cannot all co-operate and all set general guidelines under the watchful eye of which ever administration is in control.

In my country our leader is in video link ups with the leaders of each state several times a day, while YES they have the power in each state to do whatever they want ie they can all set different guidelines and rules, our Prime Minister or leader can also set rules that apply to every single state and every person in the country and then request the states enforce those rules as they see fit.

I would assume a logical balanced response would be states with high infection rates and ERs and ICUs not coping be locked down, have their boarders closed and states with much lower numbers that are handling the medical crisis better close their boarders to other states with higher numbers to reduce the spread but enforce less strict lock downs than states with much higher numbers.

We both know that the US has so many people infected you cannot stop the virus at this point, it's a matter of slowing down the infection rate in each state so that hospitals are not overwhelmed and less people die because of that.

 

[House Cat]

Of course I did. You couldn't gather that from my post?

Then watching him act like a dictator and calling a spade a spade is acceptable behavior in this instance.

 

[redwood66]

Then watching him act like a dictator and calling a spade a spade is acceptable behavior in this instance.

So if it was anyone else as POTUS who decided to order states locked down to prevent spread it would be ok with you? If that's what the experts said?

 

[soxfan]

CNN is gonna cause him to stroke out on live TV. OMG he is so unhinged right now....

 

[missy]

From Bloomberg prognosis.

The governors step forward

The pandemic is providing a crash course in federalism. Governors across the U.S. have taken command in responding to the virus, shutting down their economies, wrangling for medical supplies in what some have described as a Wild West marketplace, and assuming the role of calming presence for their people during a historic health calamity. In New York, Governor Andrew Cuomo has conducted daily briefings that go deep on data while also providing snippets of humanity. On Monday, he described his daughters groaning when he said that efforts to contain the pandemic could drag on another year and a half, until a vaccine is found. Some of the assertiveness appears to be chafing President Donald Trump. In a tweet Monday, Trump said that he would be in charge of determining when states reopen for business, not their governors. “A decision by me, in conjunction with the Governors and input from others, will be made shortly!” Trump said. Governor Cuomo Photographer: Eduardo Munoz Alvarez/Getty Images North America But the governors aren’t waiting for an edict from the president; Cuomo and a cluster of other states in the northeastern U.S. are working on plans to coordinate the reopening of schools and businesses. (California, Oregon and Washington plan a similar joint approach.) Pennsylvania’s Tom Wolf said the states must “restore the sense of hope that has been taken away from us.” Rhode Island’s Gina Raimondo said she doesn’t want people out of work longer than necessary. Working together makes the most sense, said Connecticut Governor Ned Lamont. Cuomo warned that states and cities going it alone would be “mayhem.” The division of powers between the U.S. government and the states dates to the country’s origins, when wariness about centralized government ran high. The 10th Amendment, part of the original Bill of Rights written by the federalist James Madison, says that powers not delegated to the federal government nor prohibited by the Constitution belong to the states and to the people. Trump’s declaration that he alone will decide when the country reopens runs counter to one of the nation’s founding documents. Of course, behind the dispute, and the decisions by the states to form their alliances, is a deeper reality—that none of the states can act effectively in isolation in the face of a global pandemic. They will need to be united. The federal government can bind them, or be left by the way.—Tim Annett

 

[voce]

It seems to me that the "right wingers" are more focused on the OFFICE of the POTUS, and the "left wingers" are more focused on the PERSON in the office of the POTUS. I'm not sure what to focus on here. I just have an observation to make.

You know how George Soros, the guy who exploited the currency market, particularly in Britain and in Asia in the 1990s, caused several economic crises? Some defenders of Soros, including people seduced by his philanthropy projects like Open Society, say that Soros did those governments a service, by making them realize how vulnerable their market regulations were, and thereafter those governments strengthened securities regulations. Do the people on the left buy this argument? In my mind, he is a criminal, because he could have stopped after making his point, instead of exploiting the markets to the maximum extent possible to make his fortune. He set back the lives of millions in the countries affected, and some people hero worship him, saying what he did was a SERVICE by exposing vulnerabilities in the currency markets.

I'm wondering if some people will some day argue that what Trump is doing right now, exposing tensions between state and federal government, loopholes in how the POTUS appoint high-level officials to the Department of Homeland Security, conflicting laws and statutes etc. as a SERVICE to the American people, in exposing the vulnerabilities of the American government, enabling Americans to strengthen government institutions in the future.

My biggest fear is that he'll tamper with the November elections somehow. Because we DO need a referendum given how divisive he has been, because I can't imagine another four years under Trump. Why survive under Trump when we have the potential to THRIVE under a different POTUS? Trump sucks at foreign policy, and will bring down American prestige with another four years in office.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Trump: I have all the authority
Also Trump: I have none of the responsibility and nothing is my fault.

Cause you know how the saying goes, with great power comes no responsibility. Oh wait...

 

[Dancing Fire]

Well he is the POTUS though whether people like it or not.

You are talking to the wrong crowd! in their mind HRC should be POTUS.

 

[House Cat]

So if it was anyone else as POTUS who decided to order states locked down to prevent spread it would be ok with you? If that's what the experts said?

Interesting question. You’re appealing to my fear. Let’s change the question. If Trump were ordering a lockdown for all of the states for another two months on the advice of the experts, how would I feel about him? I would like him a teeny bit.

 

[Dancing Fire]

CNN is gonna cause him to stroke out on live TV. OMG he is so unhinged right now....

They have been trying for 3.5 yrs now...

 

[Dancing Fire]

Interesting question. You’re appealing to my fear. Let’s change the question. If Trump were ordering a lockdown for all of the states for another two months on the advice of the experts, how would I feel about him? I would like him a teeny bit.

How about 4 more months would like him more then?

 

[Tekate]

Well Voce you're a good person I know this, but I disagree with one salient point, the economy is defined as:

Economy: What It Is, Types of Economies, Economic Indicators

An economy is a system of production and consumption activities that determine how resources are allocated among all of its participants. Learn how it works.

www.investopedia.com

An economy is the large set of inter-related production and consumption activities that aid in determining how scarce resources are allocated. The production and consumption of goods and services are used to fulfill the needs of those living and operating within the economy, which is also referred to as an economic system.

In my opinion Voce we are well on the way to the uber rich, the very rich, the rich, the wealthy and the poor. That's it. Unless our corporations bring back manufacturing and services from the the poorer in the world nothing will change.

I blame the republicans the their continued belief in believing the old style way of thinking, that which says "the rich are the job creators" no they aren't, not here anyway.

Rich Americans Aren't the Real Job Creators

A proud capitalist on what really drives economic growth -- and how the tax system can better reflect reality.

www.theatlantic.com

this man says the rich are idea creators, I'd say maybe now, not sure anymore..... But American ingenuity and ideas have been repeatedly stolen by the Chinese, they are job creators and thieves.

We should be shut down till we can ensure we will not be killing American (or Euro wherever) lives, I find it very hard to understand why people are so willing to sacrifice me for their own selves. I can choose to self isolate I suppose but that seems patently unfair.

To me you are asking people to give their lives up for the economy. The people behind the economy have never done a damn thing for me, I'm not going to ensure they are rich, but they have a lot of money so let's tax 'em to help the economy.

Can we ask people's lives that have been destroyed by using their 401Ks to live would they rather be dead or destitute?

Trump is saying he's emperor, king and a despot and he only can open the economy. He's evil, sick, a Malignant Narcissist of the worst kind, no soul..

• grandiose fantasies and behavior, such as a preoccupation with thoughts of personal success, power, and attractiveness or sex appeal
• little or no empathy for other people’s emotions or feelings
• a significant need for attention, admiration, and recognition
• an inflated sense of self-importance, such as a tendency to exaggerate personal talent or achievements
• a belief in personal specialness and superiority
• a sense of entitlement
• a tendency to take advantage of others or exploit people for personal gain
• arrogant or conceited behavior and attitudes
• a tendency to envy others and believe others envy them

Malignant Narcissism: What It Actually Means

Malignant narcissism is a casual term that some experts use to refer to people who have traits associated with several different personality issues. We'll go over the possible traits, whether it's treatable, and more.

www.healthline.com

I think Trumpski appeals to people with tendencies that he has above, now that is just my humble opinion, they want this type of behavior in their prez, the people against political correctness are really good examples of worshipping at the altar of Trump.

I know you are saying we all have to weigh the options, I agree to a certain point but I lean towards closer to human lives than peoples livelihood.

One thing I know for sure, we don't need a narcissist like Trump at this time. A total bully.

And what does this mean?

Congrats, coronavirus, you just did in one fell swoop what Bernie Sanders failed to do for decades.

Sanders has never put his plan into action, we don't know, I am in the anybody but trump and that includes Bernie, a horse, anyone or thing.

I'm not going to excuse Trump for his shortsightedness and delayed response, or his unapologetic attitude. He deserves some of the heat he's taking.

However, I don't understand what you mean by black and white: economy versus people's lives. Maybe to you, the economy is an amorphous concept and abstract, therefore of lesser value, but to me, the economy is the sum total of each and every one of our lives, what we are able to do in life, our options and opportunities.

What is going to be the effect on people's lives if we extend the lockout a year, or even some intermediate and indefinite time frame?

The eradication of the American middle class, people's savings and investments, mass reduction in freedom and quality of life. Yes, the lockdown is for a good reason, to save people's lives, but it's an enormous sacrifice, not to be taken so lightly.

Without income, without sufficient government assistance, the poor will struggle to put food on the table, and the middle class will have to be living off their savings, even their retirement savings. You'll wipe out the wealth of the middle class, and at the end you'd have either poor or rich, no in-between. Goodbye, decades of social progress.

Without income, WITH sufficient government assistance, you are converting the political system en masse to a socialist one where almost everyone is dependent on food stamps and the government replacing income. Congrats, coronavirus, you just did in one fell swoop what Bernie Sanders failed to do for decades.

In my opinion--there is no obvious best right thing to do--only hard choices between a moral high ground in trying to prevent the loss of life and what is sure to be a destruction of a lot of people's way of life. When your meager life's savings gets wiped out because you've got to take money out of your investments to put food on the table, isn't that destruction of your life's goals and dreams? I think a lot of PS'ers have a high level of savings and won't have to worry about this for a while, but I personally know a lot of middle class people who are deeply affected. I think that younger people will have more years to build up a nest egg, but lots of older people nearing retirement, like my parents, find themselves in a $h!thole situation.

I just don't like it when people sit on a high horse and say, it's black and white, you're either with me, or you're an idiot (or worse). On this issue, I don't think there is an objective decided right path to take. Exactly how long to extend the lockdown, in my opinion, is a compromise, and we'll never know if what we did, do, or will do was the "better" option given that at any point in time, what we know about the virus is limited, and the economy is in many ways an unknowable beast as well.



I disagree with you on so many other things, but this is one of the things I agree with you on.

 

[redwood66]

Interesting question. You’re appealing to my fear. Let’s change the question. If Trump were ordering a lockdown for another two months on the advice of the experts, how would I feel about him? I would like him a teeny bit.

Not appealing to your fear at all. If I answer your question it would be - Trump needs to pound sand and which states are first to file a lawsuit for his overreach. But my views on states' rights are absolute regardless of who sits behind the Resolute desk. There is no pick and choose based on what you like or agree with.

We all would like better "feelings" about how the government is handling this crisis but I don't think cooperation is possible with this POTUS in office. Whether than be out of spite or fundamental differences of opinion (on all sides).

 

[House Cat]

Not appealing to your fear at all. If I answer your question it would be - Trump needs to pound sand and which states are first to file a lawsuit for his overreach. But my views on states' rights are absolute regardless of who sits behind the Resolute desk.

We all would like better "feelings" about how the government is handling this crisis but I don't think cooperation is possible with this POTUS in office. Whether than be out of spite or fundamental differences of opinion (on all sides).

Well, I guess the only thing we have to discuss now is who will file that lawsuit first. New York seems too obvious. It actually seems the governors on the east coast want to beat Trump to the punch with reopening their states but I hope they don’t do it too soon in the process.

 

[AGBF]

I am simply awestricken by Trump's view of the role the president plays in the US government.

In my opinion it should have some correlation to how much responsibility he and the federal government took for managing the coronavirus. Had they immediately formed a huge task force; gathered up all the necessary materiél; efficiently transported and fairly distributed it (preferably by the military); and overseen all the medical care for all Americans; I might think they had a role in directing when to wind down. Not because the US Constitution made the president Very Big, but because they had run the whole show.

 

[redwood66]

Well, I guess the only thing we have to discuss now is who will file that lawsuit first. New York seems too obvious. It actually seems the governors on the east coast want to beat Trump to the punch with reopening their states but I hope they don’t do it too soon in the process.

I think he has to actually order it first. Saying he can and doing it are two different things. If he does order anything of the sort then let the lawsuits fly. Saying it just makes him sound like a dumbass.

Pressure to open up even slowly is growing all across the country.

 

[Tekate]

Do you think Trump gives a hoot what the left says? Seriously, he could care less. I don't know what the left would have said but I do know he might look much more presidential today than he does because he could say: "We stopped the virus coming in from China and Europe, our numbers are lower than China's" (pretend #s I don't care) Mr Ego Narcissist Emperor Trump would look to be the winner! Now he's just a nutcase and evil with power.

Yup, He should have had banned all European flights too, but if he did you know what the left would had said...

 

[Tekate]

Come on this is simple, experts = educated physicians, scientists, and those who have had experience in disease, pandemics, epidemics, this isn't rocket science Karl, this is listening to those who have experience whether they are in the government or not.

Which experts? the useless bureaucrats that have totally dropped the ball every time so far?

 

[Tekate]

Pressure to open up is growing? who's calling for that? Business?

I think he has to actually order it first. Saying he can and doing it are two different things. If he does order anything of the sort then let the lawsuits fly. Saying it just makes him sound like a dumbass.

Pressure to open up even slowly is growing all across the country.

 

[Dancing Fire]

We should be shut down till we can ensure we will not be killing American (or Euro wherever) lives, I find it very hard to understand why people are so willing to sacrifice me for their own selves. I can choose to self isolate I suppose but that seems patently unfair.

• T, can you imagine what is like if people can't afford to pay their bills or put foods on their table? . we would go robb/kill each other for foods to survive.

 

[redwood66]

Pressure to open up is growing? who's calling for that? Business?

There are articles about it all over Google.

 

[missy]

• T, can you imagine what is like if people can't afford to pay their bills or put foods on their table? . we would go robb/kill each other for foods to survive.

Read this @Dancing Fire and tell me how much more important jobs are right now than human lives. Including our healthcare workers who are putting themselves at great risk every single day. If we reopen this country too early, too fast without a solid plan we will undo all the good we have done with this quarantine and lose hundred of thousands more lives.

I’m an E.R. Doctor in New York. None of Us Will Ever Be the Same. (Published 2020)

A Covid diary: This is what I saw as the pandemic engulfed our hospitals.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Dancing Fire]

Read this @Dancing Fire and tell me how much more important jobs are right now than human lives. Including our healthcare workers who are putting themselves at great risk every single day. If we reopen this country too early, too fast without a solid plan we will undo all the good we have done with this quarantine and lose hundred of thousands more lives.

I’m an E.R. Doctor in New York. None of Us Will Ever Be the Same. (Published 2020)

A Covid diary: This is what I saw as the pandemic engulfed our hospitals.

www.nytimes.com

I can't read any articles from NYT b/c I don't have an account with them. The thing is no one knows when is the correct time to reopen our country for business.

 

[AGBF]

"Governors responded scornfully Tuesday to President Trump’s insistence — widely challenged by legal scholars — that he has the authority to direct the reopening of the American economy by himself.

'We don’t have a king; we have a president,' Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo of New York said Tuesday on NBC’s 'Today.' In a separate appearance on MSNBC, he warned that if Mr. Trump tried to force an economic reopening on the states, it could lead to 'a constitutional crisis like you haven’t seen in decades, where states tell the federal government, ‘we’re not going to follow your order.' One of Mr. Cuomo’s partners in the coordinated effort to reopen the Northeast, Gov. Ned Lamont, Democrat of Connecticut, told CNN that 'verbal hand grenades' from Mr. Trump should not 'distract from a lot of other good work that’s going on.'

And Gov. Larry Hogan of Maryland, a Republican who is the chairman of the National Governors Association, pushed back after Mr. Trump opined on Twitter that the decision to reopen states rested with him, and not with governors.

'It’s not my understanding of the Constitution,' Mr. Hogan said in an interview Monday on CNN, taking pains to praise the cooperation of the federal government while making it clear that he believes the ultimate authority will lie with the states and their governors.

'Governors made decisions to take various actions in their states, based on what they thought was right for their state, based on the facts on the ground, talking with doctors and scientists,' Mr. Hogan said in the interview. 'And I think individual governors who made those decisions will have the ultimate decision about what to do with their states. 'The governors have been reacting to Mr. Trump’s signals in recent days — which culminated in an extraordinary briefing at the White House on Monday evening — that he alone had the ultimate power to make the decision of when to ease the stay-at-home orders and other restrictions that governors across the country enacted to slow the spread of the virus.In the White House briefing Mr. Trump claimed that 'numerous provisions' in the Constitution, which he did not name, gave him the authority to override the states if they wanted to remain closed. Legal experts say presidents have no such power. 'The president of the United States calls the shots,' Mr. Trump said. 'They can’t do anything without the approval of the president of the United States.'

FACT CHECK


Trump Falsely Claims ‘Ultimate Authority’ to Override States’ Virus Measures
Constitutional experts, government agencies and Republican governors all say otherwise.
April 14, 2020

Coronavirus Live Updates: Governors Push Back at Trump Over Authority to Reopen

Governors on the East and West Coasts formed alliances to coordinate future action, prompting President Trump to compare the move to a “mutiny.” The I.M.F. issued a stark warning about economic fallout.

www.nytimes.com

 

[House Cat]

I think he has to actually order it first. Saying he can and doing it are two different things. If he does order anything of the sort then let the lawsuits fly. Saying it just makes him sound like a dumbass.

Pressure to open up even slowly is growing all across the country.

He does have a talent for saying one thing and doing another. This is why nobody trusts him. He was described as a carnival show on the sidelines of this pandemic. I think of that a lot when I see him waving his arms while trying to exert his authority.

I get it. Unemployed families and suffering business owners might have a different set of priorities than I do. It’s easy to be focused on staying healthy when I’m secure at home.

Trump’s base might be desperate to go back to work. They were desolate in 2016 when they voted for him. I can’t imagine what they are going through right now. He didn’t keep many promises to them during his term. This might be his crowning moment to keep a promise and put them back to work at the menial, underemployed jobs they were working at these past three years in order to survive, definitely not the manufacturing jobs that were promised. It could be trump’s opportunity to pretend to TRY to be the hero and make all of the governors the villains. Then he will repeat over and over “I tried to fix the economy but the governors wouldn’t allow it (Never mind that i broke in the first place by not acting on this pandemic.)” and that will be HIS winning ticket into the election. His shortsighted base will make the governors the reason why they are so poor and Trump will skate by once again.

Since the beginning of this presidency, I have been saying to myself, “how bad can it really get?” And now I’m sitting in my house in the middle of a pandemic with this clown making decisions for my livelihood with people in this nation who still support him. I don’t think we will survive another term...literally.

 

[Tekate]

I always ask you this could I have a pointer to your facts?

Trump downplays need for ventilators as New York begs to differ

“I don’t believe you need 40,000 or 30,000 ventilators,” the president said. But city and state officials say they require far more than the administration is providing.

www.politico.com

Here are things doctors WISH they knew in NYC and probably CT and Jersey.

What Doctors on the Front Lines Wish They’d Known a Month Ago (Published 2020)

Ironclad emergency medical practices — about when to use ventilators, for example — have dissolved almost overnight.

www.nytimes.com

They might not have to use ventilators, but who knew when this started? If China knew - and maybe they did - they didn't say.

NYC received a floating hospital that was not for Coivid19 which was of no use, specifically it was to be used for seriously ill patients without CV19.

NYC: Trump’s floating hospital brings disappointment

New York, NY – On, April 2, the New York Times reported that the U.S. Naval Ship Comfort, the 1000-bed navy hospital, had 3 patients. T...

www.fightbacknews.org

The procedure to get admitted to the U.S.N.S Comfort is long and takes a further toll on the overworked New York hospital staff. First, an ambulance can’t take you directly to the naval ship sitting pretty on Pier 90, but must drop you off at a local hospital. Once you arrive at a local hospital, patients have to go through extensive tests to ensure that they don’t have COVID-19. Once that’s confirmed, another ambulance can then take that patient to the ship where they can get care.

So Cuomo was warned as was every governor, NO State was prepared.

I know that opinion commentator Hannity (he's not a newsperson) on Fox spews BS about Cuomo and NY but I highly suggest you read NY papers, even the Post to get more accurate information about NY.

Believe me I read, my kid lives in Brooklyn so I have a vested interest in ensuring NY info is accurate.

States and federal government should work in unison, if they aren't they need to work it out and at this time I believe our constitution no longer bears any resemblance to modern time and we need a new constitutional convention to bring the needs of Americans up to date rather than living by 1770 rules.

Why do you suspect states have become 'dependent' on the federal government? if you 'suspect' it, I'm all ears I'm ready to read all unbiased pointers.

Have YOU read the guidelines set up by Obama? Trump ignored them saying such blather as something finalized in 2017 as out of date.

The Trump administration declined to use an Obama-era pandemic preparedness playbook, Politico reports

The playbook anticipated and planned for many of the same roadblocks the Trump administration now faces in its response to the coronavirus outbreak.

www.businessinsider.com

Regulations and Laws That May Apply During a Pandemic | Pandemic Influenza (Flu) | CDC

Everything you need to know about the flu illness, including symptoms, treatment and prevention.

www.cdc.gov

States Can’t Fight Coronavirus on Their Own—And the Founding Fathers Knew It

It was a lesson they'd learned from experience

time.com

Trump holds all the blame not the states. Deep reading is needed to understand the scope of which Trump screwed up, but it's all out there. Starting with the fact that Trump downplayed the virus AND said it was a ploy by the democrats.

Here's chumphead in all his glory saying the democrats were responsible. blah blah.

Except that N.Y. did get ventilators, thousands of ventilators though not as many as requested. They got temporary hospital facilities and staff to run them. They got a huge hospital ship (thankfully most of those additional hospital facilities are largely unused at this time). Cuomo and some other governors asked for more than could be supplied. Still other governors asked for more reasonable amounts and recieved closer or all of their requests The shortage isn’t in NY or even the US...it’s global. Cuomo was warned years ago that his state was lacking ventilators and equipment to handle just this situation and he did little to remedy that situation. The federal government was similarly unprepared. I don’t know if any states were better prepared regardless of the political leadership. I suspect not as our states have become very dependent on the federal government. That may be something that changes after this, at least in respect to emergency stockpiles.

 

[voce]

Economy: What It Is, Types of Economies, Economic Indicators

An economy is a system of production and consumption activities that determine how resources are allocated among all of its participants. Learn how it works.

www.investopedia.com

An economy is the large set of inter-related production and consumption activities that aid in determining how scarce resources are allocated. The production and consumption of goods and services are used to fulfill the needs of those living and operating within the economy, which is also referred to as an economic system.

In my opinion Voce we are well on the way to the uber rich, the very rich, the rich, the wealthy and the poor. That's it. Unless our corporations bring back manufacturing and services from the the poorer in the world nothing will change.

I blame the republicans the their continued belief in believing the old style way of thinking, that which says "the rich are the job creators" no they aren't, not here anyway.

Rich Americans Aren't the Real Job Creators

A proud capitalist on what really drives economic growth -- and how the tax system can better reflect reality.

www.theatlantic.com

this man says the rich are idea creators, I'd say maybe now, not sure anymore..... But American ingenuity and ideas have been repeatedly stolen by the Chinese, they are job creators and thieves.

We should be shut down till we can ensure we will not be killing American (or Euro wherever) lives, I find it very hard to understand why people are so willing to sacrifice me for their own selves. I can choose to self isolate I suppose but that seems patently unfair.

To me you are asking people to give their lives up for the economy. The people behind the economy have never done a damn thing for me, I'm not going to ensure they are rich, but they have a lot of money so let's tax 'em to help the economy.

Can we ask people's lives that have been destroyed by using their 401Ks to live would they rather be dead or destitute?

Kate, you've quoted a very textbook definition of the economy. What are people doing in their everyday lives, if not engaging in production (work) and consumption (hobby, play, downtime) activities? It's not as though the economy does not affect people's lives. Practically speaking, every dream of mine, whether it's bling, career, or family, is inextricably dependent on a stable and functioning economy.

I would agree that the rich are idea creators. They're the ones that created and maintained our current system of economics and politics. But above all, the rich are successful. They can be heirs and heiresses who haven't done anything productive, or they can be successful disruptors, those like Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos and Warren Buffet, too.

The poor can be idea creators also, just not as successful. J. K. Rowling is rich, and I wouldn't deny her the money and success her writings have earned. The poor are like those struggling writers, actors and artists who haven't caught a break yet. They're unlucky and unsuccessful so far, but there's some that are bound to be more successful in the future.

"The people behind the economy?" Who do you think these people are? They include the farmers who grow your food, the grocery clerk at check out, plenty of people who do not deserve to have others prevent them from becoming rich despite their hard work to better themselves and better others. It's when you say stuff like this, that makes me think, you don't understand what the economy is, what it means, and therefore you are dismissive whenever anyone mentions the economy.

The coronavirus does not have a 100% kill rate, so you are asking people to give up something certain, for something which is more uncertain. And really, who are you to make that decision for them? You are taking away freedom of choice. I am not against continuing the lockdown, but I want to state that the choice of until when to extend the lockdown is NOT a black-and-white issue, like some of you have assumed.

And what does this mean?

Congrats, coronavirus, you just did in one fell swoop what Bernie Sanders failed to do for decades.

Sanders has never put his plan into action, we don't know, I am in the anybody but trump and that includes Bernie, a horse, anyone or thing.

I stated the bolded part in the context of IF we are under an extended lockdown, and IF the government provides everything from income replacement to food and medical care, to help people deal with the sustained nature of the lockdown, THEN we can become a socialist system overnight, which Bernie Sanders has not managed to over a lifelong political career.

I'm also in the "anybody but Trump" camp. I just want to point out what I see as fallacies both on the left and on the right. I myself care about accuracy and correctness, and I'm not one to jump on the bandwagon just because everybody else is on.

 

[Tekate]

Basically what I WANT is Trump to NOT BE PRESIDENT EVER AGAIN, my belief is this: If an informed person really understands what Trump has done and is doing then they wouldn't vote for him.

To imply that democrats etc simple want to 'redo the 2016 election' is as to saying that republicans wanted to 'redo the 2008 or 16 election' God knows that how Obama was treated by right wing press, groups, Russian interference in Trumps favor (and yes they occasionally did a favor to Clinton), is the same as Trump has been treated by the left, that's politics, but it's much louder today because of the web.

 

[Tekate]

Voce I believe you are right on much you say below.. the economy is us mostly.

you said this:

the coronavirus does not have a 100% kill rate, so you are asking people to give up something certain, for something which is more uncertain. And really, who are you to make that decision for them? You are taking away freedom of choice. I am not against continuing the lockdown, but I want to state that the choice of until when to extend the lockdown is NOT a black-and-white issue, like some of you have assumed.

Who am I to say this? I'm a 67 yr old American, with a 1 yr old granddaughter 32 and 28 year old sons, former smoker with high blood pressure and nominal high cholesterol (borderline), I am a person who I think would probably die from the virus. This is who I am and I'm not ready or willing to sacrifice my life for the 'group' and yes it is my choice, and if Trumpski can and does open up for business carte blanche I am sure my husband and I will still quarantine ourselves. Now the 30 yr old cop that dies of it? or the teacher, or young mom, or baby, they don't die as much but they are dying also. Not only do I care about ME I care about them and everyone. I do not care about businesses they are not people, even tho republicans and conservatives place business before people.

I do not want to see people to die because of lack of food, money for rent, mortgages so I therefore think there should be a very detailed and thought out plan with scientists and physicians on the team.

Republicans have shown for fully 3 years they do not care about the national debt so we should continue to help.

We will have to wait to see what Chumps nepotistic team of business people can come up with I am not optimistic any of these people care about anyone but themselves.

Kate, you've quoted a very textbook definition of the economy. What are people doing in their everyday lives, if not engaging in production (work) and consumption (hobby, play, downtime) activities? It's not as though the economy does not affect people's lives. Practically speaking, every dream of mine, whether it's bling, career, or family, is inextricably dependent on a stable and functioning economy.

I would agree that the rich are idea creators. They're the ones that created and maintained our current system of economics and politics. But above all, the rich are successful. They can be heirs and heiresses who haven't done anything productive, or they can be successful disruptors, those like Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos and Warren Buffet, too.

The poor can be idea creators also, just not as successful. J. K. Rowling is rich, and I wouldn't deny her the money and success her writings have earned. The poor are like those struggling writers, actors and artists who haven't caught a break yet. They're unlucky and unsuccessful so far, but there's some that are bound to be more successful in the future.

"The people behind the economy?" Who do you think these people are? They include the farmers who grow your food, the grocery clerk at check out, plenty of people who do not deserve to have others prevent them from becoming rich despite their hard work to better themselves and better others. It's when you say stuff like this, that makes me think, you don't understand what the economy is, what it means, and therefore you are dismissive whenever anyone mentions the economy.

The coronavirus does not have a 100% kill rate, so you are asking people to give up something certain, for something which is more uncertain. And really, who are you to make that decision for them? You are taking away freedom of choice. I am not against continuing the lockdown, but I want to state that the choice of until when to extend the lockdown is NOT a black-and-white issue, like some of you have assumed.


I stated the bolded part in the context of IF we are under an extended lockdown, and IF the government provides everything from income replacement to food and medical care, to help people deal with the sustained nature of the lockdown, THEN we can become a socialist system overnight, which Bernie Sanders has not managed to over a lifelong political career.

I'm also in the "anybody but Trump" camp. I just want to point out what I see as fallacies both on the left and on the right. I myself care about accuracy and correctness, and I'm not one to jump on the bandwagon just because everybody else is on.