WF vs BGD which stone is better and why?

[KirstLWA]

The WF has a lower crown angle and star facet length. I understand lower ca produces less fire but what difference is there between a 47 or say 51 Star length?

Will there be visible difference to they eye in terms of performance between these two?

WF being g vs1 is great and it faces up bigger than the BGD.

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3965440.htm

Or

https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...ls/2.541-h-vs2-round-diamond-ags-104098900014

Thanks!!!!

 

[OoohShiny]

Have a seach for the words 'star facets' being posted by the forum member JohnPollard - he has only recently confirmed the differences that star facets can produce, but I can't find it right now!

 

[KirstLWA]

Thanks @OoohShiny I’ve been searching but I don’t think it’s anything to worry about! Seems it’s well within range and it’s about hearts and arrows. A minor facet not to be hung up on from my understanding! Everyone feel free to correct me if I’m wrong!

So, which one do you like best and why? Please play!

 

[OoohShiny]

Have work to do today but will try to have a look later!

 

[the_mother_thing]

If it were me, I'd choose the BGD stone. They're both bound to be excellent performing stones. All things otherwise being pretty 'equal', and not being able to see both in person to compare them side-by-side, it gets you over the 2.5ct mark for a little less money. And I don't think the tiny face-up size difference will be noticeable to the eye, but that's just me.

The only other thing I would consider is - if you may upgrade it at some point, BGD has more criteria to it's trade-in/up policy than WF which only requires you spend $1 more than the original, so perhaps consider that possibility and review the policies as well.

 

[KirstLWA]

Thanks @the_mother_thing

So preferencing carat weight over increase in both color and clarity!

I appreciate your input! It’s a really hard choice!

 

[the_mother_thing]

Thanks @the_mother_thing

So preferencing carat weight over increase in both color and clarity!

I appreciate your input! It’s a really hard choice!

Well I know me and what details my eyes will & will not see, and I might make trade-offs or compromises that differ from someone else's. Also, I am not color sensitive nor do I 'demand' the whitest stone (I actually prefer a little body color - the diamond in my profile pic is a K color). And I am not a fan of paying for things that are not 'functionally' or visually apparent to me.

So taking color & the mm size difference off the table for comparing these two diamonds, that leaves cut (both are great), carat weight (one hits a key mark), and cost ($2k price difference).

That's why I would choose the BGD diamond.

ETA - I am not saying the BGD stone is "better" than the WF stone; rather, I am saying - for me - the BGD would be the better buy IMO. Others may opine differently.

 

[sledge]

Have you looked at this page yet?

http://www.heartsandarrows.com/hearts-arrows-diamond-ideal-cut-dna.aspx

You have a fat budget and are buying cream of the crop so I’d be very picky if I were you and get as near perfect as possible. Both are very clean and most here know I am a BGD fan. That said, if I’m being nit picky I like the fact the WF stone has no clouds (although I don’t think it matters performance wise, just a mind thing) and I like the fact it’s a G VS1. Also their upgrade policy is better should that become an issue later. With WF spend $1 more and you upgrade. With BGD you spend $1 more, plus upgrade 2 of these: color, carat or clarity.

Unless you have hyper sensitive eyes I don’t think you will ever see a color, clarity or size difference in person so that is a mind thing or bragging rights, lol, to some degree. FYI I’ve heard others say it takes .20mm difference for the naked eye to recognize size difference.

If they are willing I’d ask both to ship to a mutual trusted jeweler or other trusted source so you can see in person and then choose the one that speaks to you most.

More info on the star facets. Check out the link for the images. FYI neither of these stones are out of whack by any stretch.

Star Facet = 40-58% acceptable (45-50% optimum)
Star facet length is a little known factor in brillianteering that can impact the hearts or arrows pattern. In the heart view, the star facets round off the shoulders or lobes of the hearts, which directly relates to the size of the table. In the arrows view, each star facet contains two small pairs of triangles that are visible between the eight arrowheads. Fig B-9 Long star facet lengths will create problems in cutting the Hearts and Arrows Ideal. If the star facets are too long, they will create the negative effect called “clustering and interference figures”. This disturbs the typical pattern of the arrowhead and shaft area of the eight arrows by adding white reflections that alter the normal H&A pattern. Fig B-10

“Clustering” or interference figures can be exaggerated by a combination of long star facets >55%, lower girdle halves >77% along with steeper pavilion angles. This negative factor makes the arrows pattern unacceptable as shown in Fig B-11. The “perfect arrows view” below is much cleaner in appearance due to star facets that fall between 45%-50%. Fig B-12

 

[KirstLWA]

Yes @the_mother_thing I see your point exactly! Everyone places value on different things and I appreciate your input!

@sledge it’s not easy to see the stones at a trusted appraiser as I’m in Australia! Otherwise would do it in a heartbeat!

I like both stones for varying reasons but can’t decide which one is “best” if that makes sense as one has colour and clarity on its side but the other has carat weight and price I guess!

 

[rockysalamander]

I would choose the BGD H VS2 between these two. I do personally like G and H color, so both are in that range for me. While I like high clarity, I would not pay for the VS1 over the VS2 as they are equally clean.

I like WF's more generous trade-up policy. So, how about this one? Very similar to BGD and you get the more generous tradeup.
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3978020.htm

 

[sledge]

Hey @KirstLWA, does funds allow for you to purchase both stones and then return the one you don't like? Or would it be possible to book a trip to Houston, TX where both vendors are located? Or even better if there is a trusted source on this board that could give a human evaluation of both stones side by side? While I typically wouldn't recommend this, I think the fact you are dumping $40k on a stone warrants a plane ticket if it gives you the warm fuzzies.

Looking further at the stones on my computer (instead of iPhone) I still think they are both awesome and think it's really personal preference. Playing a little to what @the_mother_thing was saying, you can breakdown pricing as follows:

WF 2.485ct
$39,750 credit = $15,995.98 per carat
$38,558 wire = $15,516.30 per carat

BGD 2.541ct
$37,625 credit = $14,807.16 per carat
$36,497 wire = $14,363.24 per carat

Having bought a BGD stone myself, I am biased in the fact I think you get a slightly better cut with them. And I will probably get slammed for saying that. It's nothing against WF or the ACA line as I also think they are superb. I just personally like the way his diamonds looks to MY EYES. If you weren't aware, Brian actually co-founded WF and then split off and started BGD. So early ACA's were his product and as you dig through his upgrade policy, you can see he actually accepts those early ACA's in the BGD trade up policy. Since then he has delved into the Blue and Black lines, where the Black is a new cutting technology he considers his current best.

FYI, I ended up buying a BGD Blue which has fluor. Ended up much smaller, but otherwise similar specs. 0.867ct H VS2 (medium fluor). Initially I had a target of D-G, VS+, 1 carat. Like you, I got down to a WF and BGD stone. In my case, the WF was a G VS2 and slightly higher carat weight but smaller spread. I chose the BGD because of the cut and value (in my case about $900 lower which was more significant as purchase prices were $4800 & $5700) and also the fact my lower weight stone sized up better than the heavier WF stone. Also since my color target was D-G, I liked the fluor and thinking it helped whiten the H a little. I've really enjoyed working with BGD and can't say enough good things about them (although others have similar experiences with WF, so that too is probably a wash).

If you'd like to save a few bucks and don't care about the upgrade policy then I can certainly see how the BGD stone would still be an excellent choice in your scenario.

 

[sledge]

Oh yeah, forgot to add this for you.

WF stone on left & BGD stone on right. This was done using EXACT measurements of the two stones you are comparing and making some assumptions on finger size, etc.

 

[KirstLWA]

Thanks @sledge yes aware of the company history etc!

I’m even luckier that my finger is a size 4 so it’ll be even bigger on me haha!

 

[PintoBean]

How about having both stones shipped to an independent appraiser like David Wolfe in NYC and getting his weigh in?

 

[KirstLWA]

Thanks @PintoBean I don't have the funds to purchase both stones so that isn't an option either.

I don't want it analysed to a high degree, I was really just interested to know what the prosumer's here would choose, based on the the information available.

I know both will be amazing stones. I think I was just after opinions to see if anyone noted anything that I didn't already know or could see something in the images that would sway the decision one way or the other.

There is value in the colour and clarity being higher but then there is also value in getting over the 2.5ct mark so really wanted to see how people felt about that.

 

[KirstLWA]

Thanks @rockysalamander I won't be upgrading this baby so those policies don't matter.

The BGD vs2 is very clean with just the 2 clouds and I presume that won't affect performance (have asked and am waiting on feedback) so I think the BGD is probably the better buy. No point paying for what you can't see and I guess should the worst happen and I have to sell it, 2.54 HVS2 will probably fetch more than 2.48 G VS1.... I think. I may be wrong.

Does anyone see anything negative about those clouds on the table?

 

[doc3]

Have you looked at many stones in person to see how color sensitive you are? That may push you one way or the other. You may find you can tell a difference between G and H, or see a tint in H but not in G.

The clarity seems like a wash to me. Maybe slight favor to WF with the VS1 grade, but looking at the reports and images I don't think it tips the scales.

The BGD hits the 2.5 ct mark, but has a slightly smaller diameter. If saying you have a true "2.5 ct" diamond is important then the BGD gives you that. Don't think you'd see a size difference at all between these 2 with their similar measurements.

Both companies are reputable. Like @sledge, I had a great experience with BGD and would recommend them to anyone who is diamond shopping. They do seem like a smaller, more personal operation with great customer service and a strong reputation. To me, it seemed kinda special/unique to have a BGD diamond. Cannot speak to WF since I haven't bought from them, but have heard great things as well.

Overall I think the diamonds are similar enough that it should come down to cost and setting. Have you looked at each site's settings or do you have one in mind?

 

[sledge]

Thanks @sledge yes aware of the company history etc!

I’m even luckier that my finger is a size 4 so it’ll be even bigger on me haha!

LOL, you have tiny hands. That rock will look massive on your fingers, you are a lucky girl.

What I like about the image (despite having the incorrect ring size for you, sorry) is that using the actual dimensions of each stone, you can't really see a difference in the size. Which for you means, winner winner, chicken dinner regardless of the stone you choose.

How about having both stones shipped to an independent appraiser like David Wolfe in NYC and getting his weigh in?

You may talk to WF and BGD. With the stones going to a trusted appraiser, they may not make you purchase each stone. Instead, they may ask for a deposit and shipping costs. Or may just offer to ship if you cover the shipping fees. It may be worth asking for sure. You'd be out a little cash to have this done, but it's a good option IMO. It'd be even better if you could find someone in Houston to do the appraisal since both companies are located there, and could literally arrange to drop the stones in person. Although, that too might be a hassle as Houston is massive and it can take an hour or longer to get across town in traffic.

Thanks @rockysalamander I won't be upgrading this baby so those policies don't matter.

The BGD vs2 is very clean with just the 2 clouds and I presume that won't affect performance (have asked and am waiting on feedback) so I think the BGD is probably the better buy. No point paying for what you can't see and I guess should the worst happen and I have to sell it, 2.54 HVS2 will probably fetch more than 2.48 G VS1.... I think. I may be wrong.

Does anyone see anything negative about those clouds on the table?

Without doubt there are buyers who will "need" a 2.5+ stone for them to believe it's truly a 2.5 carat. I'm not one of those buyers. But I look for value and understand a 2.485ct should go cheaper because it's not a "magnet" size. And I think it would be cheaper if it weren't for it being a G VS1 as opposed to the H VS2.

You could make the same argument for color. Some people won't consider anything beyond an F or G. I think the clarity would be considered even less because at this level, both these stones will be clean. There was a cloud shown on the BGD cert, and also notes about additional clouds not being shown but at the VS2 level, it shouldn't be an issue really. I think people are more likely to fork over extra bucks for a larger size or better color, rather than marginal improvement between a VS1 or VS2 that they probably can't tell with the naked eye anyhow.

One thing is certain -- should push come to shove and you have to sell, you will not like the price you get in the used market for either stone. So I hope you are never forced with that situation.

Have you looked at many stones in person to see how color sensitive you are? That may push you one way or the other. You may find you can tell a difference between G and H, or see a tint in H but not in G.

The clarity seems like a wash to me. Maybe slight favor to WF with the VS1 grade, but looking at the reports and images I don't think it tips the scales.

The BGD hits the 2.5 ct mark, but has a slightly smaller diameter. If saying you have a true "2.5 ct" diamond is important then the BGD gives you that. Don't think you'd see a size difference at all between these 2 with their similar measurements.

Both companies are reputable. Like @sledge, I had a great experience with BGD and would recommend them to anyone who is diamond shopping. They do seem like a smaller, more personal operation with great customer service and a strong reputation. To me, it seemed kinda special/unique to have a BGD diamond. Cannot speak to WF since I haven't bought from them, but have heard great things as well.

Overall I think the diamonds are similar enough that it should come down to cost and setting. Have you looked at each site's settings or do you have one in mind?

Good point about the feel of BGD. It does feel smaller, more personal and a little more exclusive. Not knocking WF as I talked to them before making my final purchase and they were very attentive, but it felt like a much larger environment and not quite as exclusive to me. Still that is all very subjective but one of the reasons I did like dealing with BGD.

An even better point is the settings. It would definitely be nice to get everything done at one place. I know this from experience as I bought from BGD but having DK design/build the setting.

Really, I think it boils down to this -- after listening to you, I believe you are drawn to the BGD stone and you seem more excited about it because of the size. For that reason, I think you will always think "what if" should you buy the WF stone. In my humble opinion, I think you really want and should buy the BGD stone.

 

[coda72]

I think I would go with the BG stone if I were you. You save a bit of money and get over the 2.5 carat mark (even though the BG one is slightly smalller). Since you’re not concerned about upgrading, that doesn’t weigh into the decision. H, VS2 are great specs. I wish my stone was that instead of J, SI1, but I wanted max size for minimum budget.

 

[MissGotRocks]

This is a tough one! I guess you have to prioritize what attribute is most important to you. Sounds like you're not hung up on the size one way or another so in that respect it's a wash. Are you particular about either color or clarity? My best advice to you is not to skimp on the one thing (if there is one) that is most important to you. Regrets are hard to live with. The good news is that you have two great contenders to choose from. I have dealt with WF twice and could not be more pleased but I've no doubt that BGD would work hard for you as well.

 

[SimoneDi]

@KirstLWA I have purchased/upgraded with BGD 3 times and have had them recut stones for me 3 times as well always with great results. They are wonderful to worth with. I have also had the pleasure of visiting WF and they have a lovely team. In this particular instance, I personally would not justify the price difference between the two. You can apply that toward the setting for example.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Oh yeah, forgot to add this for you.

WF stone on left & BGD stone on right. This was done using EXACT measurements of the two stones you are comparing and making some assumptions on finger size, etc.

This view makes it appear that the WF stone is smaller than the BG stone, and actually, the WF stone is larger. So I am not sure if there was an error typing in dimensions, or what?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I am sure everyone knows I am a WF fan as I have been a customer of theirs for 11 years at least. I believe they have the best cut, best selection, and best prices, and that's why I personally buy from them.

But of these two stones, the WF stone is definitely the better value. You have a higher color AND clarity at only about a $2k difference! That's a DEAL, and I'd choose G color alone for that small of an increase. The VS1 is just a bonus.

This stone shows that WF has the better pricing on a stone that has close to the same specs as the BG stone.

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3947617.htm

 

[ac117]

This stone shows that WF has the better pricing on a stone that has close to the same specs as the BG stone.

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3947617.htm

This is a gorgeous choice and I've been meaning to chime in. I know you said upgrading isn't a consideration, but given the great price on this WF stone I'd be inclined to get it (saving you $2k from the BG stone). In the event you aren't 100% in love with the color (bc I do remember your threads over the last few months and requiring only a G or higher), you could always send it back for the G VS1 or another similar option. I think VS1 is overkill and I'd choose crossing the 2.5 mark over getting a VS1, but I'd certainly take the better clarity if there wasn't a price premium for it, otherwise I'd take a G VS2 any day (which is what my current stone is).

 

[rockysalamander]

In terms of size in mm, they are quite similar. For a stone this size, it would be pretty hard to see any difference as that mean only about a 1% difference in surface area. The bigger the stone, the smaller the visible difference in surface area.

 

[SimoneDi]

@KirstLWA you can always ask BGD if they would price match or if they have upcoming promotions? They run pretty generous discounts from time to time.

 

[blueMA]

Between the two stones, not considering the brand/vendor service/policy, I prefer the BG stone cut in this particular case.

 

[sledge]

In terms of size in mm, they are quite similar. For a stone this size, it would be pretty hard to see any difference as that mean only about a 1% difference in surface area. The bigger the stone, the smaller the visible difference in surface area.

Thank you for confirming. I don't think I input the dimensions incorrectly earlier. I think it's a visual trick our eyes play on us sometimes. Either way, put aside the vendor and carat weight and they appear to be the same size as there just isn't enough difference in size for the naked eye to see it.

 

[KirstLWA]

Thanks all!!

@diamondseeker2006 and @ac117 that stone had an inclusion visible from the side unfortunately!

I’m leaning towards the bg stone set in the bg tiffany knife edge with some mods to make band thinner etc. the wf and bg knife edge look so similar that I might just ask for the PS mods and it should turn out the same

I released the wf stone as I saw someone else was interested in it so didn’t want to hold it when I probably wasn’t going to take it!

Feel free to talk about settings with me

 

[blueMA]

You've made a great choice. I really like the thicker, longer, and more prominent arrow patterns along with the angles of the BG stone cut, and I think the cut will give you a bit more scintillation and look more lively in person. A ring setting is such a personal choice. BG offers so many great selections so see what you like. If you end up with a few final selections, we can then chime in.