WF ACA vs. DCD Signature series

[orbaya]

I have been doing some research on H&A''s and am wondering if DCD''s Signature Series is the same thing as Whiteflash''s A Cut Above? I found similar stones at both places but DCD''s is $2432 cheaper. Is that because ACA is "branded"? Or is there something else that I''m missing? Here are the spec''s for each diamond. Thanks for the help!

Whiteflash:

Price: $12,775.00
Report: AGS
Shape: A Cut Above H&A
Carat: 1.580
Color: G
Clarity: SI1
Depth: 61
Table: 55
Crown Angle: 34.8
Crown %: 15.5
Pavilion Angle: 40.9
Pavilion %: 43.2
Girdle: 1.1%-1.8%FACETED
Polish: Ideal
Symmetry: Ideal
Culet: Pointed
Fluorescence: Negligible
Measurements: 7.56-7.58X4.62

DCD:

Cash Price: $10,343
Stock Number: 7034699
Shape: Signature Round
Laboratory: AGS
Carat Weight: 1.50
Color: G
Clarity: SI1
Measurements: 7.35x7.42x4.53
Depth: 61.3%
Table: 56%
Polish: Ideal
Symmetry: Ideal
Culet: Pointed
Girdle: 1.2-1.6
Fluorescence: None
Culet: Pointed

Crown Angle : 34.4°
Crown %: 14.7
Pavillion Angle : 41.0°
Pavillion %: 43.2
Lab Comments: None

 

[strmrdr]

ugh bad day

sorry I read them as both being 1.500

 

[bar01]

Nice choices. I am so bad at diamonds (ask me about Sapphires sometime) BUT -

Are you looking at this one -from DCD? DCD 1.50

And this one from WF ? WF 1.58

Both get identical HCA scores of 1.7 and are AGA 1A grades. So I am sure either one will perfrom nicely However, let me make the following unexpert observations - perhaps confusing things

The WF is 5.2% bigger. There is also a pricescope member discount of around 5% for WF diamonds. Also I believe DCD has a 2.2% cost increase to pay by credit card. DCD charges for shipping (ya - I know whats $30 bucks) Other stuff - I do not believe the DCD diamond is laser engraved with AGS number - WF is.

Lastly is the statement from DCD that "this diamond exhibts strong Hearts and Arrows patterns". The WF ACA is a true H&A. I would definetly ask DCD for that ideal scope image so you can compare to WF image.

 

[noobie]

Date: 11/9/2004 4:48:49 PM
Author: bar01

Both get identical HCA scores of 1.7 and are AGA 1A grades. So I am sure either one will perfrom nicely

However, let me make the following unexpert observations - perhaps confusing things

The WF is 5.2% bigger. There is also a pricescope member discount of around 5% for WF diamonds.

Also I believe DCD has a 2.2% cost increase to pay by credit card.

The discounted WF price of $12136 is for cash payment. On $/carat basis, the WF stone is $7681 and the DCD stone is $6895, so the WF stone is 11% more after normalizing for weight and payment type.

Now my feeling is this. If they were the same price per carat, I would buy the WF one. As storm noted the DCD stone looks just so slightly small for a 1.5 carat. The 1.50 weight looks like the cutter cut it to meet the magic 1.5 mark so they could charge more, appearing to hide a little weight in the stone.

You probably would be able to see a slight difference in the stones side by side since the WF one is bigger, but once mounted and not next to each other I doubt many would be a able to pick them apart.

So it comes down to having an ACA branded stone and any extra comfort that may bring you or the DCD stone and buying a nice pair of 1 ctw studs with the difference (or something else).

I don''t think there is a wrong answer. I may be tempted to spring for the ACA for an engagement ring for emotional reasons; my wife would take the ring and the earrings if given the choice

 

[orbaya]

Thanks for responses!

I was a little uneasy about the part about the "strong hearts and arrows pattern" myself. If I go with H&A''s I want the "real thing". I contacted DCD and they only have an 80% upgrade policy, where WF has a 100% policy. That''s important to me because I will need a good plan.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 11/9/2004 7:23:21 PM
Author: orbaya

If I go with H&A''s I want the ''real thing''

You can alwasy ask DCD for H&A viewer pics, no ?

 

[Racer811]

First thing i would do is get the ideal-scope image from DCD. Just email them and ask for it. Otherwise, I think your choices in vendors is a good one! Oh, and who cares about H&A? I personally think it''s a silly, meaningless title and would give no value at all to it. Just my 2c.

 

[orbaya]

How big of a visual difference is there between an ideal cut stone and a H&A cut stone? It seems that the Ideal cut stones are less expensive and wonder if paying the extra for a H&A is worth the price. There is so much to know about cut! YIKES!

 

[noobie]

As i said before, side by side you would be able to see the slight size differnece. However in a blind test, I doubt you would be able to pick them apart. I know I probably wouldn''t.

 

[Nicrez]

I personally prefer a faceted girdle, as well as a stone that measures closer to round, than not. The two numbers should be closer to each other, so as not to have a major variation in circumference minimum and maximum, which is what measurements are showing. the smaller number is the depth, so that doesn''t really matter in this case.

But the .08 carat difference is not what makes the stone $2K more. it''s all the little details, so it that''s important to you, that''s your decision to make, so good luck!

 

[valeria101]

The Harts and Arrows pattern works pretty well as a mark of diamonds with nice optics, but many other are just as great for any account of brilliance and do not have the pattern showing perfectly. As long as there is some other way to determine briliance but the promise of the H&A pattern, it's use is somewhat defeated, IMO.

The optical symmetry of those perfect H&A is quite amazing - nice if you are after technical perfection, less nice if you consider this "overkill". It can go either way.

I would expect - at it's worst - that the DCD stone may not show the hart pattern by the book, even if the arrows show nicely in their picture. Too bad DCD does not use IdealScope pictures or anything. Those do not show the hart pattern either, but would help show off the stones.

I am a bit puzzled about this roundness thig

. The "superideal" cut rounds come with these diameter numbers as little as a hundredth of a milimeter apart. They could be watch parts with that kind of precision... But when does anything start to have any effects of the stone's looks or brilliance or what not aside price ? I bet the H&A pattern is destroyed by some higher tolerance level. However, once the diamonds are no longer presented and prced as H&A, what matters? Too much diameter variance would be penalized by the symmetry grade on a GIA cert, right?

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

The DCD-stone is hiding weight in the girdle. Also, the higher variation in diameter makes it very difficult for a cutter to achieve the best internal symmetry, thus the highest light performance.

It is a classic case of a stone, of which the average numbers look ideal, but of which the details are definitely not good enough to be called super-ideal. If you would see the stones side-by-side, you would definitely see the difference.

According to me, the difference in price is logical. It is up to you to decide what you prefer. The very top of light performance, or some more dollars remaining in your pocket.

Live long,

 

[bar01]

As a non -expert that bought true H&A ACA diamonds - I also considered strongly just getting AGS 0 (triple Ideal) diamonds with good HCA and AGA scores (super ideal cut). What I understood (others - please correct me if I am wrong) is that these ideal cut diamonds (like the one DCD mentions) exhibit strong H&A patterns - but not necessarily the whole perfectly formed and symetrical thing.

It is a very personal thing - but for me if it was going to "show some" H&A pattern - I wanted the complete and perfect pattern. My feeling was - it should be completly random or be a complete perfect pattern. I could not stand something that "kind of" had a H&A pattern (but not quite). As an engineer I appreciate the precision cutting and presentation of a complete pattern. But thats just me.


As mentioned in this link from NiceIce's site - excellent brillance, fire and scintialation are no longer the sole possesion of true H&A cut stones, there are other options.

NiceIce Posistion

Of course Whiteflash has some good discussions too:

whiteflash H&A 1

WhiteFlash H&A 2

 

[orbaya]

Wow! Thanks everyone for all the input. All this cut stuff is kindof intimidating! I can certainly appreciate the science of the H&A''s but it sounds like a lot of it comes down to personal preference. I am learning a lot from everyone here, and I sure am grateful!

One jewelry store around here sells Hearts on Fire which are beautiful. Another sells Ideal cut stones...they call it a "tolerance of zero" so I''m assuming they are referring to AGS0. They also claim that their stones are the same as the HOF but are less expensive because they aren''t "branded". But I think they are different cuts, not both are H&A''s.

The ideals are also beautiful...it would be nice to able to compare the HOF and AGS0 side by side. I say right now that I would happy with AGS0, but that could change once I examine them both more closely.

BTW, are the AGS0 and AGS000 the same? Are all AGS0 assumed to be triple zero? I''m so overwhelmed!

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Take a deep breath, and allow yourself the time to educate yourself.

To start, read the tutorial of Pricescope. It is the best start. After reading that, you will have some direction in your questions.

Live long,

 

[valeria101]

Date: 11/11/2004 11

4:48 AM
Author: orbaya

BTW, are the AGS0 and AGS000 the same ?

Yeah.... At some point AGS encourages the practice of calling "AGS000" diamonds that get their highest grade on cut (the first "0", really) with the excuse that AGS0 cut means three things: ideal proportions, polish and symmetry. Besides, how many AGS0 D IF (that what AGS000 was designed to mean at first) are these ?

There are lots of threads on HOF diamonds here (you may want to search) saying that this brand is expensive but not totally consistent on cut parameters. So you may definitely want to check the specs of a HOF if you get one. The H&A pattern forms on diamonds that are not of idea proportions... after all.

Surely this sounds confusing. It is! It should be... IMO, outherwise, who would pay that premium on trust (=brand) alone?

 

[orbaya]

Date: 11/11/2004 11:10:36 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Take a deep breath, and allow yourself the time to educate yourself.

To start, read the tutorial of Pricescope. It is the best start. After reading that, you will have some direction in your questions.

Live long,

I am taking my time definatly! I am looking at couple different online vendors, prices, upgrade policies and just learning so I can be fully educated before I make my first purchase. That first purchase won''t be until after the holidays (gotta buy gifts for the family and friends first)! So I have plenty of time to learn learn learn!

I am having fun with this and never had any idea all that went into buying a "rock". I already knew about color, clarity and carat weight, but was clueless on cut. And of course it turns out that is the most important of the C''s. I''ve read tutorials here, GOG and others. I''m just excited...I LOVE diamonds!