Visible Inclusions? From Side? Is this Normal

[find45di2]

I was curious to know how inclusions from the side view of a diamond are included in their rating process?
I understand that they rate a diamond based on the amount of inclusion, or as a percentage to the size of a diamond, but I am asking more on a personal note.

Typically are inclusions visible on an SI1 diamond from the side without a 10X loupe? Or should minimal inclusions be seen from the side view? I am really picky so I want to understand exactly how people take into account inclusions that may be visible from a loose diamond at a side view?

 

[belle]

diamonds are graded face up. there is no telling what you might see from the side, that is why it is important to:
a. see the diamond for yourself
b. find a reputable, trustworthy vendor that has a clear description of ''eye clean'' that can view the diamond in person.

feel free to use the search button for other questions you might have!

 

[Lorelei]

Ditto Belle!

Also read this thread for further insights on clarity grading and '' eyecleanliness.''

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/clarity-eye-clean-definition-interpretation-and-taste.30483/

 

[chrono]

Yes, diamonds are only graded from the top view. I believe a 10x loupe is used. It is up to the individual to decide how much he/she can accept seeing from the side. If you don't want to see anything from the side, then a VS1 is recommended. However, sometimes, you might get a clean side view in a VS2.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 8/7/2007 11:26:43 AM
Author: Chrono
Yes, diamonds are only graded from the top view. I believe a 10x loupe is used. It is up to the individual to decide how much he/she can accept seeing from the side. If you don''t want to see anything from the side, then a VS1 is recommended. However, sometimes, you might get a clean side view in a VS2.

There are also diamonds which are clean from the side views with SI clarities, these need to be taken on a case by case basis as SI clarities are not created equal. Also the grading lab needs to be considered too.

 

[denverappraiser]

Part of the skill of a good cutter is to orient the stone to produce maximum beauty when viewed from the top. The inclusion was in the stone when the cutter started after all and if they can they will do their best to make it only visible from the back or sides. It’s not usually anything to worry about.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[elmo]

Date: 8/7/2007 11:26:43 AM
Author: Chrono
Yes, diamonds are only graded from the top view.

Hey Neil, aren't VVS graded from the back as well? I mean, I don't think internally flawless means from the front only!

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 8/7/2007 2:24:02 PM
Author: elmo

Date: 8/7/2007 11:26:43 AM

Author: Chrono

Yes, diamonds are only graded from the top view.

Hey Neil, aren''t VVS graded from the back as well? I mean, I don''t think internally flawless means from the front only!

A stone can be VVS with inclusions visible ONLY from the pavilion side. IF can’t even have that so, yes, the pavilion view is considered in making this grade separation. There are also durability concerns that would affect the clarity grade and that may show up in a pavilion or girdle inspection.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[elmo]

Thanks! No disrespect meant to Chrono whose posts I always enjoy. But this graded-from-the-top-only thing gets mentioned so much on Pricescope that I think the real scoop almost deserves a place in FAQ.

 

[kcoursolle]

Date: 8/6/2007 11:03:43 PM
Author: belle
diamonds are graded face up. there is no telling what you might see from the side, that is why it is important to:
a. see the diamond for yourself
b. find a reputable, trustworthy vendor that has a clear description of ''eye clean'' that can view the diamond in person.

feel free to use the search button for other questions you might have!

ditto. It is fairly common to see SI2 and sometimes SI1 inclusions from the side. They can easily be covered up in most settings, but if you don''t want there to be any visible inclusions be sure to ask your vendor or view the diamond yourself to make sure it is eye clean from *all* angles.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 8/7/2007 2:54:28 PM
Author: elmo

Thanks! No disrespect meant to Chrono whose posts I always enjoy. But this graded-from-the-top-only thing gets mentioned so much on Pricescope that I think the real scoop almost deserves a place in FAQ.

The disconnect may just be the wording. It's correct to say the clarity grade reflects the face-up 10X view (not side or pavilion-visible inclusions, which is what I think Chrono/Belle are inferring). However the overall clarity & plotting process involves close examination of the entire diamond.

GIA makes a distinction between setting the clarity grade and plotting. The lab manual even instructs to "plot after setting the clarity grade." This is because plotting is so involved that it can skew perspective. A grader's instinctive first look is usually correct (in my diamond grading lab courses my classmates and I found this to be true nearly 100% of the time). Setting the grade involves a face-up 10X look to get an idea...then closer examination of the whole stone...and finally arriving at the exact grade with another face-up 10X look.

The plot is drawn after setting the grade. The stone is examined face-up, in pavilion view and from the side, rotated using the GIA 'wedge' technique to map each sector, corroborate inclusion position and ID surface features.Reflected and darkfield lighting are both used and the stone is frequently flipped, turned, zoomed & unzoomed.The focus knob is constantly in-motion, adjusting depth of field to bring layer after layer of the diamond into focus. By the time you finish with a diamond you know it well enough to have it meet your parents.

When drawing the final plot only characteristics seen at 10X will be drawn.Everything is plotted in the crown unless the characteristic touches/breaks the pavilion surface - or is only seen through the pavilion (like internal graining or pinpoints in VVS).For a stone to be IF there can be no red (inclusions) drawn anywhere on the diagram.

I hope this helps to understand. It's true that the grade indicates what the gemologist saw face-up, but the plotting process itself is very involved.

 

[elmo]

Date: 8/7/2007 4:52:08 PM
Author: JohnQuixote
It's correct to say the clarity grade reflects the face-up 10X view (not side or pavilion-visible inclusions, which is what I think Chrono/Belle are inferring). However the overall clarity & plotting process involves close examination of the entire diamond.

What you're saying and what Neil is saying are two different things. I have seen VVS stones with comments "none" where the only plotted inclusion is on the pavilion-side plot, and which under 10x show nothing face up.

Again, my understanding is that "internally flawless" means exactly that, even if the inclusion is only visible from the pavilion.

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/7/2007 4:52:08 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 8/7/2007 2:54:28 PM
Author: elmo

Thanks! No disrespect meant to Chrono whose posts I always enjoy. But this graded-from-the-top-only thing gets mentioned so much on Pricescope that I think the real scoop almost deserves a place in FAQ.

The disconnect may just be the wording. It''s correct to say the clarity grade reflects the face-up 10X view (not side or pavilion-visible inclusions, which is what I think Chrono/Belle are inferring). However the overall clarity & plotting process involves close examination of the entire diamond.

GIA makes a distinction between setting the clarity grade and plotting. The lab manual even instructs to ''plot after setting the clarity grade.'' This is because plotting is so involved that it can skew perspective. A grader''s instinctive first look is usually correct (in my diamond grading lab courses my classmates and I found this to be true nearly 100% of the time). Setting the grade involves a face-up 10X look to get an idea...then closer examination of the whole stone...and finally arriving at the exact grade with another face-up 10X look.

The plot is drawn after setting the grade. The stone is examined face-up, in pavilion view and from the side, rotated using the GIA ''wedge'' technique to map each sector, corroborate inclusion position and ID surface features.Reflected and darkfield lighting are both used and the stone is frequently flipped, turned, zoomed & unzoomed.The focus knob is constantly in-motion, adjusting depth of field to bring layer after layer of the diamond into focus. By the time you finish with a diamond you know it well enough to have it meet your parents.

When drawing the final plot only characteristics seen at 10X will be drawn.Everything is plotted in the crown unless the characteristic touches/breaks the pavilion surface - or is only seen through the pavilion (like internal graining or pinpoints in VVS).For a stone to be IF there can be no red (inclusions) drawn anywhere on the diagram.

I hope this helps to understand. It''s true that the grade indicates what the gemologist saw face-up, but the plotting process itself is very involved.

JohnQ..., just a quick question for you...

What clarity would you grade a one carat E/C (classic ratio) which has a vs1 type inclusion seen from the face up position..., when rotated for pavilion viewing..., you notice a fine feather that stretches from one pavilion corner to the other corner stretching across the main pavilion step 1 (on the narrow side of the E/C Diamond). The feather''s position is near the girdle and can''t be seen in the face-up view?

 

[JohnQuixote]

Elmo I don''t see where we''re saying different things. Sorry. Can you clarify?

 

[denverappraiser]

Elmo,

Like many things in this business, it's in the details and the rules appear differently in different places. There are differences even in different GIA publications. Quoting the current GIA lab manual from their definitions of the various grades:

“VVS diamonds contain minute inclusions that range from extremely difficult (VVS1) to very difficult (VVS2) for a skilled grader to see under 10x magnification. The inclusions in a VVS1 diamond are extremely difficult to see in the face-up position, or they might be visible only through the pavilion. In VV2, they’re very difficult to see.

Under 10x, a typical VVS1 stone might show a minute pinpoint or two. Characteristics like reflective internal graining, a bearded girdle, minor bruises, or tiny chips could set the grade at either VVS2 or VVS2, depending on how visible they are."

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 8/7/2007 5:17:54 PM
Author: denverappraiser
Elmo,

Quoting the current GIA lab manual from their definitions of the various grades:

“VVS diamonds contain minute inclusions that range from extremely difficult (VVS1) to very difficult (VVS2) for a skilled grader to see under 10x magnification. The inclusions in a VVS1 diamond are extremely difficult to see in the face-up position, or they might be visible only through the pavilion. In VV2, they’re very difficult to see.

Under 10x, a typical VVS1 stone might show a minute pinpoint or two. Characteristics like reflective internal graining, a bearded girdle, minor bruises, or tiny chips could set the grade at either VVS2 or VVS2, depending on how visible they are.:

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Thus my prior statement

Date: 8/7/2007 4:52:08 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

When drawing the final plot only characteristics seen at 10X will be drawn.Everything is plotted in the crown unless the characteristic touches/breaks the pavilion surface - or is only seen through the pavilion (like internal graining or pinpoints in VVS).For a stone to be IF there can be no red (inclusions) drawn anywhere on the diagram.

I hope we're saying the same thing about VVS. If not, I'm sure Neil has things technically correct.

Sometimes consumers come here wondering if a VS or SI stone can have side-visible inclusions. This is when some people comment about grading pertaining to the face-up view. Those people are trying to help, and in such situations (SI and VS calls) they do help set proper expectations for the average layman wondering about the side of a diamond. In very high and very low grades, or with an example like DG put forward, there is more to it. By explaining the procedure I hoped to build a bridge, but maybe these waters are too troubled?

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 8/7/2007 5:16:06 PM
Author: DiaGem

JohnQ..., just a quick question for you...

What clarity would you grade a one carat E/C (classic ratio) which has a vs1 type inclusion seen from the face up position..., when rotated for pavilion viewing..., you notice a fine feather that stretches from one pavilion corner to the other corner stretching across the main pavilion step 1 (on the narrow side of the E/C Diamond). The feather's position is near the girdle and can't be seen in the face-up view?

Easy DG. I'd walk it to the course instructor, since all the stones I've fully graded have been in lab classes

or while sitting with Rockdoc (mhrip). I trust a significant durability issue would knock it way down. Depending on severity it could be as low as I2.

 

[elmo]

Everyone here is in sync now. I hope I didn''t take Chrono''s statement out of context. I do believe there''s been a tendency for consumers to misunderstand this with respect to VVS clarity.

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/7/2007 5:53:00 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 8/7/2007 5:16:06 PM
Author: DiaGem

JohnQ..., just a quick question for you...

What clarity would you grade a one carat E/C (classic ratio) which has a vs1 type inclusion seen from the face up position..., when rotated for pavilion viewing..., you notice a fine feather that stretches from one pavilion corner to the other corner stretching across the main pavilion step 1 (on the narrow side of the E/C Diamond). The feather's position is near the girdle and can't be seen in the face-up view?

Easy DG. I'd walk it to the course instructor, since all the stones I've fully graded have been in lab classes

or while sitting with Rockdoc (mhrip). I trust a significant durability issue would knock it way down. Depending on severity it could be as low as I2.

Not quite...
Usually small feathers in most positions don't threat a Diamonds durability

In the example I gave the feather has to be small/thin for it not to be seen from the face-up position...
But would you really be that search and EVEN go as low as I2?

What I am trying to relay is: There is a difference in grading methods between labs..., but there is a huge differences in methods between Labs and the practical everyday grading of the industry members...

A lab has to grade in a systematic manner (for the purpose of consistent results..., like you mentioned above..., some sort of system!
Members of this industry have developed their own individual methods of grading... many different methods that are circulating for thousands of years.
I never was educated by a Gemological school/institute..., never even earned my GG..., and I always grade all my clarity grades based on inspecting the entire Diamond and using my experience to base my grade.

BTW... the Diamond I discribet to you wasw graded by GIA a VS2 clarity...

 

[JohnQuixote]

DG you tricksy hobbit. You conjured up a far more severe feather in my brain.

Besides, as rumor has it, even the teeniest little wafer-thin feather will cause a diamond to explode! Right??

Date: 8/7/2007 6:34:37 PM
Author: DiaGem

What I am trying to relay is: There is a difference in grading methods between labs..., but there is a huge differences in methods between Labs and the practical everyday grading of the industry members...

...which is why threads like this are cool - everyone gains and (hopefully) can reach common ground.

 

[find45di2]

So grading from the side is obviously a wacky topic, but one many agree on in many ways.

I will try to be less picky since I am definitely not trying to spend more money for a diamond with better clarity, only for it to be covered up.

Do SI1''s typically show inclusions from the side without a 10x loupe? The reason why I ask is that I''ve seen some that show badly, and others that do not. My guess is that it is just the range between the SI1 scale, and the leniency of grading.

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/7/2007 11:35:13 PM
Author: find45di2
So grading from the side is obviously a wacky topic, but one many agree on in many ways.

I will try to be less picky since I am definitely not trying to spend more money for a diamond with better clarity, only for it to be covered up.

Do SI1''s typically show inclusions from the side without a 10x loupe? The reason why I ask is that I''ve seen some that show badly, and others that do not. My guess is that it is just the range between the SI1 scale, and the leniency of grading.

It depends on quite a few factors...,size and color/type of inclusion, position, and type of faceting on the Diamond.
When looking through the pavilion of a brilliant type cut..., you will see a single inclusion reflected numerous times because of the pavilion facet structure...
If you tilt the diamond so you can also see the table facet through pavilion..., it doubles all the reflected inclusions!!!


As JohnQ stated above: "...By explaining the procedure I hoped to build a bridge, but maybe these waters are too troubled? "

Grading Diamonds is not as simple as it sometimes seems.

There is another issue this thread makes me think of..., but I guess it deserves its own title......

 

[chrono]

Date: 8/7/2007 2:54:28 PM
Author: elmo
Thanks! No disrespect meant to Chrono whose posts I always enjoy. But this graded-from-the-top-only thing gets mentioned so much on Pricescope that I think the real scoop almost deserves a place in FAQ.

That''s okay.

Does it mean I''ll get a special mention in the FAQ?