Virginia Tech

[fire&ice]

To add - an independent investigation is being organized. This is not to be a witch hunt; but, how can we do better as a community. Also, facts will emerge that aside from AJ dorm, other buildings were in lock down quite a bit before the time line that has been published.

 

[fire&ice]

The gun laws vary from State to State. Ours is very lax. That is why some other State police department have even been in the debate about VA gun laws. I''ve seen guns auctioned off in country auctions w/ little documentation. The secondary market is quite open.

It''s quite well known that the Right to Hunt in our Commonwealth''s constitution was pushed by the gun lobby as a way of protecting the right to bear arms.

 

[fire&ice]

Just another factoid that hasn''t been taken into account about notifiying students. There was so much cell phone & phone activitiy that little was going through or out. System overload. I don''t see how that can change (being that our phone lines went down last year as a result of Richmonders dialing Idol for Elliott).

The only form of communication that was able to get through on a regular basis was email.

 

[njc]

Date: 4/17/2007 10:35:48 PM
Author: Kaleigh
How can you make sense out of the senseless?? Focus should be on what. What can be done on all campuses. Texting students instead of emails perhaps.

I agree the focus should be on what can be done, and thus my desire to stop pointing fingers. Its not helping those that need to heal. What''s done is done... I dont know that another school would have handled things differently. Even if they had canceled class right away, it would have been too late for many students.

F&I - It could be completly wrong, but heard on the news last night one gun was purchased March 13th and the other April 13th. Of course in the same report I understood one reporter to say the guns were purchases illegally, and the anchor to say legal, so take that for what it is worth.

It is a time like this I wish I did know more about our gun laws. I have been living in ignorant bliss.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 4/18/2007 9:18:59 AM
Author: njc


F&I - It could be completly wrong, but heard on the news last night one gun was purchased March 13th and the other April 13th. Of course in the same report I understood one reporter to say the guns were purchases illegally, and the anchor to say legal, so take that for what it is worth.

It is a time like this I wish I did know more about our gun laws. I have been living in ignorant bliss.

I don''t know about the gun purchased at the pawn shop. I thought both in March - but I really don''t know. Odd they were a month apart exactly. I wonder if that is something that would have precluded purchase if it was 2 in one month.

Do you remember the constitutional amendment vote on the Right to Hunt. It was in Nov. 2000 I believe.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 4/18/2007 8:28:33 AM
Author: fire&ice
Well, you and I shouldn''t argue about the pros cons or lack thereof regarding gun control. With every point - there will be a counterpoint and the question that will always come up - informed by whom? That said

You are correct about the weapons. The 9mm was purchased at a Roanoke gun shop. All paper work legal. And, I did not know that a non citizen can purchase a gun in VA. (and my commentary that it''s just wrong

). Initially, the reports were that he modified the guns for semi auto. You would know more about the 22 - are they semi auto as well? Perhaps that gun was modified - something about buying the mod on the internet. His computer had sites like that & also bomb making sites. The 22 was purchased at a pawn shop in Blacksburg. Not much about that gun has been released. He purchased both the guns in March. I am at a loss as to why someone would need two semi-automatics? So, save murdering 32 innocent college kids in cold blood in a matter of minutes & rubbing off the serial numbers, he commited no crime involving the gun.

Being weird won''t get you arrested or investigated & in this case no reason to deny a gun in VA. Storm, you must know that VA has one of the most lax gun laws in the country. You may not know that the right to hunt is in our constitution (a.k.a.- right to a gun). You may be happy. I''m not & did not vote for it. I''m still waiting for MY constitutional right to SHOP.

I can tell you this. The gun debate in VA. has heated up to buring point (once again). Both sides trying to politicize it

debate all ya want its a God given right recognised by the founding fathers and codified in the 2nd amendment.
A glock 9mm is a semi-auto out of the box as opposed to a revolver.
As was the 22lr.
The dealer who sold the 9mm is a friend of a friend of mine, so knew the details hours before the media did.
As far as who needs 2 well I do.
at one time I had 11 of them.
There is one within a foot of my right hand right now fully loaded with 8 rounds.
And a few more in the safe.

Someone with a green card has the same rights as any citizen.
Too bad the school denied the students the right to self defense.

 

[njc]

I mentioned circuits jamming in a previous post. Plus, cell service there (like any where) can be spotty for some carriers. I also remember Hokie Stone (the stone used in the majority of buildings on campus) being a fabulous blocker of everything. You could only get like 2 radio stations in the dorms and I dont really remember about my cell phone. Just another variable to throw out there.

I dont really remember the right to hunt vote. You know, I probably voted for it not knowing all the implications. My family hunts and they are responsible, so everyone else is too right? As I mentioned before, ignorant bliss.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 4/18/2007 9:46:14 AM
Author: fire&ice
I don't know about the gun purchased at the pawn shop. I thought both in March - but I really don't know. Odd they were a month apart exactly. I wonder if that is something that would have precluded purchase if it was 2 in one month.

Do you remember the constitutional amendment vote on the Right to Hunt. It was in Nov. 2000 I believe.

nope he could have purchased both the same day.
only rule is that 2 or more handguns from the same place in a 7 day period have to be reported to the batf on a multi-purchase form.
He passed a nationwide background check for both purchases and a 3 to 7 day waiting period.

edit: just checked VA is one of the pinko states with a one gun a month law...
shocking considering they have CCW.

 

[njc]

Strm - Again, I lack any and all knowledge to debate, but DH loves to talk about the Founding Fathers and that there will always be two ways to interpret what they wrote. That the right to bear arms was meant more for the militia, not modern day society.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 4/18/2007 10:00:14 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 4/18/2007 9:46:14 AM
Author: fire&ice
I don''t know about the gun purchased at the pawn shop. I thought both in March - but I really don''t know. Odd they were a month apart exactly. I wonder if that is something that would have precluded purchase if it was 2 in one month.

Do you remember the constitutional amendment vote on the Right to Hunt. It was in Nov. 2000 I believe.

nope he could have purchased both the same day.
only rule is that 2 or more handguns from the same place in a 7 day period have to be reported to the batf on a multi-purchase form.
He passed a nationwide background check for both purchases and a 3 to 7 day waiting period.

Thanks for the info. The news here reported that he walked out with the gun and ammo having passed the immediate background check. There is NO waiting period in VA.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 4/18/2007 10:04:28 AM
Author: njc
Strm - Again, I lack any and all knowledge to debate, but DH loves to talk about the Founding Fathers and that there will always be two ways to interpret what they wrote. That the right to bear arms was meant more for the militia, not modern day society.

Ditto - but again - goes back to informed & interpreted by whom. And, the interpretation fuzzy was the entire reason for the Right to Hunt ammendment in VA Constitution.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 4/18/2007 10:04:28 AM
Author: njc
Strm - Again, I lack any and all knowledge to debate, but DH loves to talk about the Founding Fathers and that there will always be two ways to interpret what they wrote. That the right to bear arms was meant more for the militia, not modern day society.

The militia is codified as all able bodied male citizens age 18 to 45 by the very same founding fathers.
It is very clear by the writings of Jefferson that its recognising an existing right of the people.
The revolutionary war would not have been possible without the private ownership of firearms.
There is nothing fundamentally different about society today than then.

 

[belle]

Date: 4/18/2007 9:18:59 AM
Author: njc

Date: 4/17/2007 10:35:48 PM
Author: Kaleigh
How can you make sense out of the senseless?? Focus should be on what. What can be done on all campuses. Texting students instead of emails perhaps.

I agree the focus should be on what can be done, and thus my desire to stop pointing fingers. Its not helping those that need to heal. What's done is done... I dont know that another school would have handled things differently. Even if they had canceled class right away, it would have been too late for many students.

this is my point too. what is done is done. nothing can bring back those that died and the second guessing and finger pointing only brings more hurt on those who have so tragically lost loved ones. i can't even begin to imagine what it must be like to be the president of the school. or anyone in a similar capacity and having this happen on your watch. tragic.
there are obviously plenty of coulda woulda shoulda's going around and it is terribly unproductive, not to mention hurtful, to try and figure out the 'why' of a totally senseless act. we can't change the past. it's time to move on and use this tragedy to TRY and be better prepared in the future.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 4/18/2007 10:00:14 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 4/18/2007 9:46:14 AM
Author: fire&ice
I don''t know about the gun purchased at the pawn shop. I thought both in March - but I really don''t know. Odd they were a month apart exactly. I wonder if that is something that would have precluded purchase if it was 2 in one month.

Do you remember the constitutional amendment vote on the Right to Hunt. It was in Nov. 2000 I believe.

nope he could have purchased both the same day.
only rule is that 2 or more handguns from the same place in a 7 day period have to be reported to the batf on a multi-purchase form.
He passed a nationwide background check for both purchases and a 3 to 7 day waiting period.

hmmm VA has passed a one handgun a month law that was news too me.
The state police also do a seperate background check.

 

[fire&ice]

Well, this one is clear. Cho certainly knew the VA gun laws/requirements better than any one of us. Even though another background check may be done - there is NO waiting period. Goes to issue of state of mind that he waited exactly 1 month. odd & quite planned out.

 

[njc]

strm - So he did have to wait a month to purchase the second gun?

Hasnt the militia been replaced by our modern day armed forces?

 

[fire&ice]

Another thing - wouldn''t being committed to a Mental Health Facility after two stalking incidents show up on the background check & raise a flag gun wise. Is this a person who should own a gun - two no less - semiautos?

 

[TheDoctor]

It is unfortunate that the killer''s right to bear arms was identical to everyone else''s.
The universality of this right didn''t save any lives in this case, and likely wouldn''t in any other school shooting. God-given?
Don''t invoke God in this one, its too ludicrous to fathom.

As for the business of arms and dealers, I pity the poor person who sold these particular guns. I pity those dealers who have sold the assault rifles and handguns that ended lives in other mass shootings. My pity, however, won''t end the shrugging of the firearms lobbyists. There are billions to be made in small-arms trade, and paranoia is the biggest sales tool implemented by the retailers of arms.

In Canada, we have had gun control for several decades, and our gun owners, including myself, aren''t packing anything besides lunch when we leave the house.

I pray for America.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 4/18/2007 10:39:50 AM
Author: njc
strm - So he did have to wait a month to purchase the second gun?

Hasnt the militia been replaced by our modern day armed forces?

looks like he had to wait the month but he could have got them on the black market had he wanted too.

No the militia has not been replaced.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 4/18/2007 10:42:48 AM
Author: fire&ice
Another thing - wouldn''t being committed to a Mental Health Facility after two stalking incidents show up on the background check & raise a flag gun wise. Is this a person who should own a gun - two no less - semiautos?

only if it was involuntary committal, if he agreed to go then it will not show up.
In IL it will show up on the state background check but not on the federal.

 

[njc]

Doc - I dont pack anything but my lunch either... ever.

Strm - Hmm... okay. So a quick look on wikipedia leads me to the militia act of 1792 and this statement, "each and every free able-bodied white male citizen" can/will be sworn into the militia by a comanding officer (paraphrasing). Have you been sworn in?

Also, if its only white males, our man Cho was not able to bear arms. Please know I am doing this more for entertainment than anything.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 4/18/2007 10:57:50 AM
Author: njc
Doc - I dont pack anything but my lunch either... ever.

Strm - Hmm... okay. So a quick look on wikipedia leads me to the militia act of 1792 and this statement, ''each and every free able-bodied white male citizen'' can/will be sworn into the militia by a comanding officer (paraphrasing). Have you been sworn in?

Also, if its only white males, our man Cho was not able to bear arms. Please know I am doing this more for entertainment than anything.

Don''t need to be, sworn in is what is done when called up.
Don''t have to be called up too be a member, its a birthright.

 

[fire&ice]

Are you sure about the committed vs voluntary involving Mental Health Facility? Because he did receive a temporary detention order. I guess it''s the difference of whether you walk in or go kicking and screaming.

Still believe given that fact, he should have been denied a gun. Honestly, where is the wisdom to allowing purchase of two semiautomatics to this person? Seriously Storm, you can prance all you want about his right - but are you safer knowing a person like this (extremely unstable in many venues) to have TWO semiautomatics w/o batting an eye? He walked out with the glock in 15 minutes. And, I''m not going to buy your argument that you *do* feel safer because of your arsenal.

This is about the population.

 

[diamondfan]

I know the police were called to his dorm, according to his roommates, because he stalked three women in person and via email. Someone Giovanni (a woman) his poetry teacher, disturbed by his writing, told someone she would resign if he were not removed from her class. This was in 2005. He was, and a lady named Lucinda Roy taught him one on one. Calls to police AND mental health on campus were made. He had a history of mental illness as well. Did the police make a formal report after dealing with him in the dorm? Would a campus mental health facility document his visit or the concerns about him in a manner that could be checked later by a gun store owner? I have no idea about the procedures or how VA deals with gun purchases. He was on the radar, for sure, but things slipped through the cracks.

 

[fire&ice]

In the stalking incident, no charges were pressed; hence, no action. Second one - again annoying and not threating - again a warning. He also chose to go off campus for his couseling and subsequent detention due a student reporting him suicidal. Because of patient confidentiality, VT knew of none of the findings - only where he was sent (again a private facility). On the record exists two stalking incidents. Since Dec. 2005, NO incidents were on the record. He seemed to morph himself to fall more under the radar. None of his offenses were actionable in the University system.

Regarding the gun issue, the law is clear that if one goes voluntarily to a treatment center it is not on the radar. I didn't make the law. Just that the law was followed. Storm is correct. And, answers the question whether he went voluntarily or not as confirmed by our local news.

 

[njc]

Yes, Nikki Giovanni (a VERY accomplished poet and long-time professor) taught him one semester. I have not heard she threatened to resign, but students stopped coming to class because of Chos behavoir and let Giovanni know that. She asked that he be removed from the class, and so the then-head of the department taught him one-on-one (but not the woman you mentioned, although I believe she did some one-on-one as well). Giovanni commented she never felt threatned by him, but she is an old woman, and respected the feelings of her students.

I doubt his student records (health or otherwise) would have been available to a gun shop owner or anyone doing a background check. Those are personal. Every time I went to the student health center I was asked to sign a waiver saying if MY PARENTS were allowed to obtain copies of my records. I assume HIPPA comes into play here.

I know nothing about police reports or what the police did or didnt do about previous incidents.

 

[fire&ice]

the information I posted regarding his actions may be on their website by now. All the information came to light in the 10:30 press conference w/ a time line. Pretty straight forward stuff. And, Storm was right about the vol. vs commited and the gun check. And, yes they kept mentioning HIPPA. They had no information b/c of it & no incident report since 2005.

On a Hokie pride note, hubby''s in box is full of the Friday Hokie color wearing.

He even forwarded me a few. Though I knew from you beforehand.

The community is really taking care of itself.

 

[njc]

They have a press release up about the recent conference and information about the police reports. I am happy to see that so many people tried to help this poor young man. I think it would be even more tainted if all this had gone unnoticed. Just goes to show with any problem (mental, alcohol, gambling, drinking, whatever) you can truly only save those who are ready to be saved. It scares me to think he could have "cleaned up his record" just for this.

F&I, my in-box as well, Hokie or not. Many friends and family have been asking about us in general and sending what they get. My first thought of comfort for everyone, especially those most closely affected, was that I knew we had a strong community and that it would come shining through once the dust settled. For some it shown through in the midst, like Professor Librescu. My mother went to Bluefield College and she has recieved emails from them. Never knew this, but Tech and Bluefield have had a long standing arrangement for engineers to finish their undergrad at Tech. The current campus police chief is an alumn as well.

 

[njc]

Seems we may find out what Cho was doing between the shootings... NBC has apparently received a package containing various things from Cho.

 

[fire&ice]

Yes, and at the press conference (4:30) the State Police guy thanked NBC profusely. They handed the information over to the FBI instead of keeping it proprietary. You learn lots of things in tradegies like this about people. One such thing is NBC doing the right thing. They will, however, be talking about it on tonights NBC 6;30 news. I hope they don''t publish any of the crap. Doesn''t help anyone. I am truly touched by the heroism that has been confirmed on campus. You never know what you would do in a situation like that. Blame doesn''t help anyone either - just contributes to the fervor & drama. I *do* blame one person. The person that commited these horrible cold blooded murders. A coward terrorist. He''s created his own judgement.