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Video w/ VS2 with "Clarity grade is based on clouds that are not shown"?

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Aug 4, 2008
Messages
14,634
In my opinion I would probably pass because of the inclusions but there is another issue when a vendor claims super ideal, the next thing to do is say prove it.
If they do not provide proof, h&a images and a light performance image then it is not super-ideal and in my opinion I would take a dim view of that.
Since its not industry defined wording its legal to call what ever you want super-ideal but its still not right in my opinion.
 

mikey2781

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 24, 2021
Messages
16
In my opinion I would probably pass because of the inclusions but there is another issue when a vendor claims super ideal, the next thing to do is say prove it.
If they do not provide proof, h&a images and a light performance image then it is not super-ideal and in my opinion I would take a dim view of that.
Since its not industry defined wording its legal to call what ever you want super-ideal but its still not right in my opinion.

Aside from the super-ideal label, is there noticeable clouding in the video?
I wasn't aiming for a super-ideal and this is not priced as one, but it hits all the ideal angles/length/proportions on paper.

There really isn't a better option for me out there unless I downsize to ~1.35
 

crbl999

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
562
I wouldn't take a chance on this stone due to the grade setting clouds. These need to be evaluated carefully (in different lighting environments) as the clouds can cause transparency issues; even in a VS2.
 

Diamond_Enthusiast

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Aug 28, 2021
Messages
356
I see haze too.

GIA clearly states "clarity grade is based on clouds that are not shown". The plot looks so clean and yet it is VS2, what does that tell you about the clouds?

Cloud as an inclusion is ok but when it is the reason for the clarity grade, I would pass.
 

Diamond_Enthusiast

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Aug 28, 2021
Messages
356
I have it reserved for now while I browse for other ones. Definitely having trouble finding something within my budget of ~11k with some leeway.

In case you will consider other vendors/options, here is a suggestion that is a true super ideal with ASET and H&A images to prove it. Face up spread is a bit smaller than the current stone you've reserved (7.29 x 7.25 vs 7.42x7.37) but cut is top notch and no transparency issues.


Currently BGD has a 8% discount for diamond + setting combo with code "BLKWEEK213" until 11/26 11:59 PM CST.
 

mikey2781

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 24, 2021
Messages
16
Thanks for the suggestion, will put that on my list. Good thing I'm not in a rush as our vacation is in March, had no idea diamonds were THIS complicated.

The merchant insists that it's eyeclean or clean to the naked eye when I asked about the haziness.

I've compared haziness between many different diamonds online and this one does seem a lot less hazy. Like a 10-15%% haze compared to the 50-60% hazes I'm seeing.

What are the chances that this could be eyeclean?
 

crbl999

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
562
Thanks for the suggestion, will put that on my list. Good thing I'm not in a rush as our vacation is in March, had no idea diamonds were THIS complicated.

The merchant insists that it's eyeclean or clean to the naked eye when I asked about the haziness.

I've compared haziness between many different diamonds online and this one does seem a lot less hazy. Like a 10-15%% haze compared to the 50-60% hazes I'm seeing.

What are the chances that this could be eyeclean?

The stone looks hazy in the video. The diamond should be crisp in the video. 10-15% haze is 10-15% too much haze. Chances that this stone won't have transparency issues doesn't look good IMO.

I would be cautious with the merchants opinion on eye clean and haziness. In their opinion this stone is a super ideal make. I agree with Karl's post earlier in regards to this. It's a play on words and is deceptive marketing.

Here is a stone that looks good to the untrained eye but has transparency issues under spot lighting. This stone was carefully screened by WF and was excluded from their top ACA line because of this issue.

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4189819.htm?a_aid=PS
 
Last edited:
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In case you would be open to considering other options (I went with the stated budget of ~11k):

If you’re willing to go down to J instead of I, there’s this 1.607 ACA (creme de la creme) from Whiteflash at $10,808 wire:

Other options (all of which are either AGS0 or GIA3Ex with HCA<2):

this 1.52 I VS1 from JA:
which has all Ex except for VG for scintillation on the HCA. I think it’s the same stone as this one here from B2C but the B2C link doesn’t have actual images. Still, if it seems promising to you, ask JA for the cert number to make sure that it is the same stone and then you can buy from either (it’s about $500 cheaper on B2C.)
This stone seems a bit biased away from fire and closer to the white light / brightness side of things, with a rather shallow crown, so I’m not sure if others will approve it, but worth a look.


Another JA and B2C similar inventory situation:
This 1.53ct I VS2 from JA with imo safer angles (33/40.8. ) though leaning towards a 60-60 look which I personally like but others might not. I’ve posted the B2C link which seems to be the same diamond as well.
 

crbl999

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
562
In case you would be open to considering other options (I went with the stated budget of ~11k):

If you’re willing to go down to J instead of I, there’s this 1.607 ACA (creme de la creme) from Whiteflash at $10,808 wire:

Other options (all of which are either AGS0 or GIA3Ex with HCA<2):

this 1.52 I VS1 from JA:
which has all Ex except for VG for scintillation on the HCA. I think it’s the same stone as this one here from B2C but the B2C link doesn’t have actual images. Still, if it seems promising to you, ask JA for the cert number to make sure that it is the same stone and then you can buy from either (it’s about $500 cheaper on B2C.)
This stone seems a bit biased away from fire and closer to the white light / brightness side of things, with a rather shallow crown, so I’m not sure if others will approve it, but worth a look.


Another JA and B2C similar inventory situation:
This 1.53ct I VS2 from JA with imo safer angles (33/40.8. ) though leaning towards a 60-60 look which I personally like but others might not. I’ve posted the B2C link which seems to be the same diamond as well.

After searching around I didn't find any options above 1.5 ct I VS2 and under $11k that I personally would buy.

I like the J VS2 ACA.

Here is another option from JA. I would request the report and Idealscope image.

 
Joined
Apr 22, 2020
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After searching around I didn't find any options above 1.5 ct I VS2 and under $11k that I personally would buy.

I like the J VS2 ACA.

Here is another option from JA. I would request the report and Idealscope image.


That stone looks promising! I didn’t check for stones under I at any vendors except WF, but if you’re willing to go down to a J I think the JA one looks good too.
 

Diamond_Enthusiast

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Aug 28, 2021
Messages
356
The merchant insists that it's eyeclean or clean to the naked eye when I asked about the haziness.

I've compared haziness between many different diamonds online and this one does seem a lot less hazy. Like a 10-15%% haze compared to the 50-60% hazes I'm seeing.

What are the chances that this could be eyeclean?

I personally would take it with a grain of salt if the confirmation is coming from a vendor's SA talking about a virtual inventory diamond (not in-house where the vendor has physically examined it). The signature lines of diamonds of vendors like BGD and WF are in-house vetted and so I would be comfortable with their confirmation. Eye clean does not necessarily mean it will be transparent and not hazy IMO. Though it seems that Brilliance has a 30 day return policy you can fall back on.

Transparency doesn't get graded as an item by GIA/AGS but the comment about clarity grade based on clouds that are not shown raises red flags IMO. There are enough diamonds with no transparency issues available that you shouldn't have to rank their haziness level as part of your decision.

Haziness/cloudiness can happen when excessive/dense clouds, twinning wisps and/or internal graining are present. Some will argue that fluorescence can cause haziness too, however it actually seems that fluor isn't the cause by rather it occurs when the stone has transparency issues to begin with.

As for suggestions to go to J color, I personally would not recommend this unless you know the receiver is not color sensitive or you have both seen/discussed diamonds around that size in J. Lowest I'd go for a surprise vacation proposal is H/I if you are unsure of color sensitivity. If something had to be compromised, IMO you are better off with a well cut eye-clean SI1 in H/I.

One more thing you may account for is future upgrade potential. If you might upgrade, go with WF or BGD because their upgrade policies are more generous. At JA, you need to spend double the original. Not sure about Brilliance.
 

chumbawumba

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 1, 2023
Messages
17
Rather than start a new thread, asking the question here as it is still relevant:


This stone cert contains the note "clarity grade is based on clouds not shown".

From the magnified video, it doesn't seem to be an issue. Is this something that 100% needs to be reviewed in person to confirm?
 

Kim N

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 6, 2005
Messages
6,388
Rather than start a new thread, asking the question here as it is still relevant:


This stone cert contains the note "clarity grade is based on clouds not shown".

From the magnified video, it doesn't seem to be an issue. Is this something that 100% needs to be reviewed in person to confirm?

This stone actually does look less clear/crisp than other stones without clarity issues. I'm also not a big fan of the cut quality. Check this one out.


Or this super ideal cut, which comes with a much better upgrade policy.

 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
18,029
Good deal or avoid?

GIA link : https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=7408731026#main-content

Thanks in advance

Definitely avoid this one. The vendor has a clear agenda in telking you it's not hazy. It will be hazy, and the other options attached are much better
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
5,791
Don’t walk but run from that nasty note of “clarity is based on clouds not shown”.

If you look close you can see it’s hazy and not crisp like other stones. Additionally it’s too deep at 62.7. Look at the dimensions, 7.56 x 7.61 @ 1.70 carats.

The 1.60 carat WF stone measures 7.52 x 7.54, a difference so negligible your naked eye will never see it. The WF is proportioned properly with angles, depths, etc. So near identical size but less carats.

The 1.70 is not proportioned properly and is hiding weight in the depth making it appear small for its carat weight.
 

chumbawumba

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 1, 2023
Messages
17
What % "better" would you consider the 1.6 WF stone? 10-20%?

The 1.7 is within my budget, but I realize there are NO DEALS IN A COMMODITY MARKET.

Just shouting for those in the back.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Apr 23, 2018
Messages
5,791
What % "better" would you consider the 1.6 WF stone? 10-20%?

The 1.7 is within my budget, but I realize there are NO DEALS IN A COMMODITY MARKET.

Just shouting for those in the back.

For me, the clarity/hazy issues of the JA 1.70 stone is a deal breaker and puts that stone in the “I won’t buy or recommend category”, period. So in that regards it’s 100% better.

Aside from that aspect, the WF is a true hearts & arrow stone and has all the images to prove it’s a solid performer. We know that because of the precision cut of a true super ideal stone like the 1.60 ACA stone that additional time is spent on production and that efficiency of diamond rough is sacrificed to provide the best cut and most beauty. So while they may cost a little more, they also have a higher cost to produce. It’s not purely additional markup as some may believe.

Lastly there is indirect value in the trade policy differences. JA requires you spend 2X the cost of the original price each time you upgrade. So todays $20k diamond requires a $40k diamond upgrade that may negate or limit future upgrades. Which then makes you question if it’s really an upgrade program at all. Imagine 2 upgrades…that’s $80k!

With the WF upgrade program you can trade for a stone of equal or greater value with no other restrictions. This can be very strategic in the fact maybe you are okay with size but want better color. You may be able to do a small upgrade to get that color bump. Or maybe you decide color is less important and size is more desirable. You can flip flop as you like without worry about spending a boatload. Plus WF has a deep inventory which means greater availability. And you’re trading a H&A for another H&A stone.

Overall, it’s easily worth an extra 10-20% in my opinion. But I’m also of the mindset that good value doesn’t always mean lowest dollar. And I’d rather spend 100% of my budget and love the purchase then spend 80% and always question or dislike what I bought. To me that is wasting 80% of my money.

I faced a similar decision a few years back. I decided to buy a new truck. I narrowed down to a 4wd crew cab. The GMC AT4 was my favorite but I didn’t like the price, $65k+. My wife knows me and told me a year before I bought to just get what I wanted. Nope I had to do research and talk myself into it, lol. Short version is I looked at other stuff and got to the conclusion I could save $15k+ buying a different model. I just didn’t like it as well. Eventually I bought an AT4. I didn’t enjoy spending the money but I love the truck and there is zero doubts that saving $15k would have really been a $50k mistake.
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
18,029
What % "better" would you consider the 1.6 WF stone? 10-20%?

The 1.7 is within my budget, but I realize there are NO DEALS IN A COMMODITY MARKET.

Just shouting for those in the back.

Is the WF stone in your budget?
 

chumbawumba

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 1, 2023
Messages
17
No - this isn't even my thread originally. Was just using it as a place to restart a convo regarding clarity based on clouds not shown.

However, I am comparing some JA options with a Whiteflash ACA.

I'm struggling to decide if the lower color ACA option is worth a premium over a higher color, very close to ACA dimensions, choice from JA.

Some of that Whiteflash ACA premium exists because they enable trade ups. Among other things, you're paying for some portion of their cost to offer that service upfront. If you never intend to trade up due to sentimental value of the original stone for example, the premium looks less appealing.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Apr 23, 2018
Messages
5,791
Putting aside the trade program differences, the most fair comparison you will get is comparing a JA True Hearts (TH) against a WF A Cut Above (ACA). And I say that with a grain of salt as many ACA’s are more tightly cut than TH’s.

Other things that come to mind.

1.. Make sure you are comparing at least a GIA 3X stone.

2. “Close to ACA proportions” may or may not be good. Very small differences in proportions can make large impacts. And because all the proportions work in unison with each other you have to ensure they ALL work and not most of them work. Every stone needs to be analyzed on a case by case basis.

3. Comparing proportions on lab reports is a preliminary step to shortlisting stones but is a risky game as those are averaged & rounded values and the nuances of cut details may show actual individual values that don’t work. The easiest way to verify this is with am ASET, idealscope and hearts image where you can verify symmetry and light performance.

4. Unless you look at JA TH stones you won’t get hearts images on their stones. And some of their normal stones an idealscope image can be provided upon request but no ASET (unless fancy shapes).

5. The above 4 things are easily verified on ACA stones. They aren’t as easy with JA stones because less information is provided to the buyer to help steer their decision making
 
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