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That''s disgusting and I hope everyone involved is punished severely. Being a police officer carries a ton of power, and unfortunately it is bound to attract a few power-seeking, macho types.

That said, the majority of cops that I''ve known have been good people. Bf works for a major city prosecuting office and he is amazed at the ridiculous amount of bs that cops put up with daily. He''s come out with a new respect for police officers.
 
while the funeral was going on, the cop walked into his official department interview with his attorney and unioin rep and tendered his resignation: he is not under arrest and is free to leave the country as no charges have been filed.

normal police procedure is to quarantine the officer and interview him/her immediately. that did not occur. his interview was scheduled for january 7 and the killing occured january 1.

i''m listening to kpfa right now and the whole show is all about this. the community does not condone the frustrated actions of a few. the community is looking for justice, pure and simple. why was the officer not interviewed by his department immediately after? why was there an attempt to confiscate all recording devices? obviously, they failed to get a few.......

the DA is now going to have to decide whether to press charges based soley on viewing tapes, without the officer''s own testimony. if the DA delays too long, i think the officer will be long gone and justice will not have been served: why? why would a department not follow basic law enforcement rules and at least attempt to make a pretense of seeking justice?

movie zombie

ps no, i do not feel safer.
 
Date: 1/8/2009 10:49:06 AM
Author: ksinger
Date: 1/8/2009 3:49:28 AM

Author:strmrdr

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKy-WSZMklc


Feel safer now?
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What''s your take on it?
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Murder pure and simple, why he did it is beyond me.
The coverup attempt is totally disgusting.
In the vid you can see the other officer get up and get in his face like he is saying WTH did you do!?!?!?!?!
It is a sad commentary on the state of things in the US that they thought they would get by with it!
The sad thing is that it happens far more than people think and they do get by with it.
At most they admit no wrong and pay a few million dollars to the family and sweep it under the rug.
Will there be justice in this case? likely not as everyone involved in the attempted coverup is just as guility as the one who murdered him.
 
I feel sick to my stomach. There are no words.
 
disgusting
 
SDL while I agree with you that there are good cops out there there is absolutely no justification in the world for shooting a handcuffed person in the back!!!!
Even if he was just almost handcuffed there was no justification.
It was an execution pure and simple and they tried to cover it up!!!!!!!!
Cops do not get by with that in my America.
When it happens and other cops protect them that will make all cops fair game eventually because you never know which one your dealing with.
The backlash one of these days is going to be uncontainable.

I have contacted my congressman asking that pressure be applied so that a federal investigation be started.
I urge everyone else to do the same!
We can not tolerate this from any police department they have got by with it far to many times.
 
good question, Storm.

movie zombie
 
Ditto to strm. It''s interesting this topic came up here because my fiance just told me about another extremely disturbing case of police brutality tonight and I didn''t mention this thread to him. A police officer in the Virginia Beach area tasered a brain damaged woman who was hula hooping. And apparently she tried to explain to him that she was disabled and had papers with her that explained her condition, but the officer wouldn''t listen.

link
 
Violence begets violence.

If the protesters went beyond civil disobedience into violence, then they are guilty as charged. I can understand being angry and hurt because one needs security and support and honesty and safey. Many people feel that didn''t occur during this shooting. But taking to the streets and vandalizing, as many people did during the riots after the Rodney King verdict, is a crime. Even the family of the shooting is pleading for the violence to stop. In order to stop violence in the physical realm, it has to stop in the mental and emotional realm.

Neither of the two initial videos are clear enough for me to see the situation as it unfolded. The third video did help piece together the incident. It appears that Mr. Grant clearly was not as easy to "cuff" as the man before him, regardless of whether or not he should have been cuffed at all. I do not want to debate whether or not they should have even been cuffing him in the first place as we do not know the verbal exchanges. However, after seeing the video footage, it is disturbing that the BART officer pulled his weapon and fired. On the third video, you can almost see the officer''s face clearly. It almost looks as though he is somewhat shocked. I don''t know why. Did the sound of the gunshot snap him back into reality from a mood of adrenaline panic? I don''t know.

I do know that in American Samoa, the officers don''t even carry guns. I just discovered this on Monday. That was interesting to me. My co-worker went there over the holidays. Her husband was murdered 6 years ago after a Nelly concert in San Diego, while trying to help a friend who had been in a confrontation with the nephew of the Chief of one of our Indian Tribes who promoted the concert. The nephew fatally stabbed him. They are all Samoan.

I just read an article this week where a 4-year old shot his babysitter because he was angry that the babysitter accidently stepped on his toes. The 4-year old walked into a room, grabbed a gun...and proceeded to shoot the babysitter. The sitter didn''t die, but it just goes to illustrate that we have turned into a nation of violence. A nation of violent thoughts which result in violent actions. It''s got to stop. It just has to stop.

This is why I will be in Washington D.C. in March. Please promote peaceful and non-violent conflict resolutions, whenever and wherever you can do so.
 
This case is absolutely appalling. While obviously none of us can have *all* of the details and the video is fuzzy... well, it's not THAT fuzzy. Something obviously went very, very wrong. That they don't seem to be investigating it to through the fullest and most expedient available means is disappointing to say the least.

Thing, the link you posted is really awful as well. There have been quite a few issues with tazers over the years, including many deaths. It's incredible how many people don't realize that you can KILL someone with a tazer fairly easily in the right circumstances. Scary.

SDL, you're completely right that it's inappropriate to demonize all police officers according to incidences like this. I do hope that you're right and the investigation moves forward appropriately as I'm sure it does in many instances. Many officers and police personnel, yourself and your husband included, are wonderful, kind people helping their communities in valuable ways. I know many good police officers and a few "bad" ones as well. Just like I know many respectable bus drivers and some not so much... and many respectable waitresses... and some not so much. You know what I mean, I think. It's impossible to judge an entire huge group of people based on a handful of publicized cases, and as with everything else I don't doubt that there is a ton of publicity surrounding the things that went wrong and very little thanks for those who do good work.

All I ask for is accountability and responsibility on behalf of the people involved. I hope we see that in this case because it seems pretty darn clear that something went horribly, horribly wrong. And now a man is dead because of it, which is tragic to say the least.
 
Date: 1/8/2009 9:15:51 PM
Author: thing2of2
Ditto to strm. It''s interesting this topic came up here because my fiance just told me about another extremely disturbing case of police brutality tonight and I didn''t mention this thread to him. A police officer in the Virginia Beach area tasered a brain damaged woman who was hula hooping. And apparently she tried to explain to him that she was disabled and had papers with her that explained her condition, but the officer wouldn''t listen.


link
Click to expand...

misuse of tasers is epidemic in some areas.
I think a lot less people have been hurt or killed because tasers are available as an alternative to a firearm but they have been abused.
For example here recently a guy ran towards a cop with a knife, the cop had full justification to shot him, instead he used a taser and the guy lived to get the help he needed.
A few years ago he would have been shot as there was no other option to stop him.
 
Date: 1/8/2009 9:23:24 PM
Author: miraclesrule

This is why I will be in Washington D.C. in March. Please promote peaceful and non-violent conflict resolutions, whenever and wherever you can do so.
Click to expand...
What happens in DC in march?

btw I didn''t say some of the protesters didn''t deserve to be arrested but the murderer should be in jail with them.
 
Date: 1/8/2009 10:18:51 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 1/8/2009 9:23:24 PM
Author: miraclesrule

This is why I will be in Washington D.C. in March. Please promote peaceful and non-violent conflict resolutions, whenever and wherever you can do so.
Click to expand...
What happens in DC in march?

btw I didn''t say some of the protesters didn''t deserve to be arrested but the murderer should be in jail with them.
Click to expand...
I am so glad you asked.
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2009 Nationall Conference and Lobbying
 
Date: 1/8/2009 10:15:52 PM
Author: strmrdr
Date: 1/8/2009 9:15:51 PM

Author: thing2of2

Ditto to strm. It''s interesting this topic came up here because my fiance just told me about another extremely disturbing case of police brutality tonight and I didn''t mention this thread to him. A police officer in the Virginia Beach area tasered a brain damaged woman who was hula hooping. And apparently she tried to explain to him that she was disabled and had papers with her that explained her condition, but the officer wouldn''t listen.

link
Click to expand...

misuse of tasers is epidemic in some areas.

I think a lot less people have been hurt or killed because tasers are available as an alternative to a firearm but they have been abused.

For example here recently a guy ran towards a cop with a knife, the cop had full justification to shot him, instead he used a taser and the guy lived to get the help he needed.

A few years ago he would have been shot as there was no other option to stop him.
Click to expand...

True, but I wonder how often a case like that occurs. It''s really just scary the power trip some cops are on. I used to work closely with the police, and some of them were great, but plenty were power hungry a-holes.

Random cop power trip story-2 cops woke my friend up a few months ago by banging on the door of his house at 8 am. He came to the door half asleep in his underwear, and the cops proceeded to YELL at him for allegedly PETTING SOME WOMAN''S DOG. My friend lives down the street from a semi-crazy old lady who decided he was petting her scary dog. (Which he wasn''t, and especially not this particular morning since he was ASLEEP.) The cops told him they would ARREST him if he petted her dog again. He. Never. Petted. Her. Dog. It was really just insane.

I told him he should call the police station and complain to the commanding officers, but he didn''t care enough to do it. Obviously the situation is a lot less serious than getting shot or tasered, but I thought it was such a ridiculous situation I still get mad thinking about it.
 
Date: 1/9/2009 12:00:38 AM
Author: thing2of2

True, but I wonder how often a case like that occurs. It''s really just scary the power trip some cops are on. I used to work closely with the police, and some of them were great, but plenty were power hungry a-holes.


Random cop power trip story-2 cops woke my friend up a few months ago by banging on the door of his house at 8 am. He came to the door half asleep in his underwear, and the cops proceeded to YELL at him for allegedly PETTING SOME WOMAN''S DOG. My friend lives down the street from a semi-crazy old lady who decided he was petting her scary dog. (Which he wasn''t, and especially not this particular morning since he was ASLEEP.) The cops told him they would ARREST him if he petted her dog again. He. Never. Petted. Her. Dog. It was really just insane.


I told him he should call the police station and complain to the commanding officers, but he didn''t care enough to do it. Obviously the situation is a lot less serious than getting shot or tasered, but I thought it was such a ridiculous situation I still get mad thinking about it.
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That is ridicules for them to do that.

It all depends on the department leadership.
Locally one department has a lot of cops that they would find a way to use a rubber spoon to abuse and kill people much less tasers and guns.
While another department has no such problems.
Why? The officers are held accountable and it is very very hard to get hired with them they only take the best and then hold them accountable.
The payoff for the department is support for high wages(20% higher than the bad department), newest equipment, and widespread community support that attracts the best.
 
This is just so wrong.
Whats worse is that likely nobody will be punished, just like Sean Bell, and other victims, unto infinity..
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SDL, I appreciate your POV and your passion on the topic, and I don't think anyone is suggesting ppl don't appreciate police in general.
Personally, I hear what you are saying and can appreciate the mentality you are describing must be challenging on a daily basis.

However, I just don't see how one thing makes up for the other, yanno? As in, because 99% of police are well behaved, its acceptable for 1% to carry out unnecessary violence...not in my book, anyway..
The video really speaks for itself - imho, it was inexcusable.


Fortunately, the issue of police violence is not really relevant here (yet?). It is rarely police have cause to draw their guns here, and I don't remember hearing ever of someone being wrongfully shot by police in my lifetime.
Is that because citizens here don't have guns? Probably, but that is a whole 'nother discussion.!


ETA: aren't these only transit police?? They're not even "proper" police right? I find it incredible that transit police even have a need to be carrying guns and taking these risks in the first place.
I'm sorry, but if a night stick, cuffs , pepper spray and taser are not enough for them to get by, I dunno whats going on..
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Let''s look at the video evidence here. Clearly the police on the scene completely mis-handled the situation entirely. Collectively it looked like they didn''t know what they were doing, but it doesn''t take a rocket scientist to see that a man on his knees holding his hands up isn''t a direct threat. But to shoot a man in the back is execution, pure and simple. The policeman who murdered this boy needs brought to task, having a gun and a badge does not give you a license to kill and justice must be served in this instance.

I do have to agree with SDL in that we take for granted what the policeforce do for us and that all the good goes un-noticed but as soon as they do wrong, everyone is on them like a ton of bricks. We can''t let 1 rotten apple spoil the barrel so those that join the force for the wrong reason need to be taken to task just like those in the community are. Its all about striking the balance.

I think Col Jessep in a Few Good Men raised some good issues, but as we know, this does not give them carte blanche and he was punished for his wrongdoings, but the point is made nonetheless.....

Son, we live in a world that has walls and those walls need to be guarded by men with guns. Who''s gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and curse the Marines; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago''s death, while tragic, probably saved lives and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don''t want the truth because deep down in places you don''t talk about at parties you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use then as the backbone of a life trying to defend something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don''t give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
 
Nothing to add, just wanted to say I agree with Storm on this one.
 
calling for bad cops to be held accountable is not cop bashing.

cop bashing would be me sharing my story about several negative cop encounters and then stating that all cops are bad....much the way that someone says they know a welfare cheater and therefore all welfare recipients are cheaters and all welfare programs should be eliminated. bashing shouldn''t be tolerated in either instance.


movie zombie
 
I think that SDL makes a valid point, but SDL please understand none of us wants to condemn all police officers. No we don''t know all of the details, but in this case we are seeing a man cuffed and shot in the back and to me that is brutal execution that was uncalled for. Part of what you as a good police officer respect is that all suspects are innocent until proven guilty. This man charged another as guilty and gave him capital punishment with nothing being proved. He shot him in the back. While he was handcuffed. To me that is shameful and cowardly. People like that give a bad name to their job and should be brought to justice. I also think that some serious mental screening needs to go on before a person is able to take the field and that there should be some kind of yearly check in to make sure that officers aren''t being overly burdened psychologically and emotionally. I do think that officers are under a heavy heavy amount of emotional and mental stress with their job. They have to see things we couldn''t even fathom, arrest criminals, hear people insult them and threaten them and worry for their own lives every single day and I firmly believe that this can take a toll on anyone at any point, and that support should be given to officers who show ANY Signs of these stresses. SDL I hope you won''t be angered by this post, as I really do believe that most officers are honorable people (I know a few officers myself) who are doing their jobs, and I think most would agree with me. We just want to see justice brought in this case because a man executed another man.
 
Date: 1/8/2009 3:19:27 PM
Author: SanDiegoLady


**eta** My response is passionate given the profession both my husband and I are involved in..

While this one officer may have made a heinous error in judgement, DON'T judge all police officers from this incident. He WILL be prosecuted once the investigation is complete. He WILL be punished for his actions. I DON'T discount what happened, but I wasn't there and I am not that officer.

Are you law enforcement, are you trained? Have you done a full investigation? Can you see every last detail of that grainy cell phone video? Could you hear every last thing that was said?

Feel safer? Are you serious?

Are you so quick to judge everyone who takes a life or is it just the police because they caught this on video?

Let me tell you a thing or ten about what I know. What I know is that on a daily basis it is your local LAW ENFORCEMENT who puts themselves in harm's way every day of the year FOR YOU and FOR THE COMMUNITY. What you DON'T see every day is the garbage picked off the street who are breaking into your vehicles, your homes, abducting your children or other family members and doing far worse. I take hundreds of calls of civilians who are more cruel to eachother beyond your wildest dreams.

Its law enforcement who respond, its law enforcement who are shot at and attacked. And I am friends with more than one who carry the bullet scars to prove it, who came very close to death in protecting this community and their partner. One of them Dan Walters used to play baseball for the Padres. A few years ago he was at a traffic stop and the violent drunk man in the vehicle ended up shooting him in the neck. Dan is in a wheelchair unable to move anything below his shoulders.

I have over and over these past several months I've seen and heard civilians breaking the law; gang members, husbands and wives, children and teens, people who are drunk, on drugs, people who are violently abusing thier families and themselves, people who lurk in wait to rape and rob people.. I have taken calls of ALL SORTS crimes involving those people. Those aren't cops, its people in the community. I find it amazing that people pick out the bad in law enforcement but there are millions of daily occurrances of civilians doing FAR WORSE to eachother than law enforcement do in a day. Do you realize how many shootings and stabbings and violent attacks happen around you every day? That's NOT law enforcement doing it, its people in your community, its neigbors and people you would never think to blame.

Half of what your law enforcement the community never sees, people have a skewed negative view of police because of parking tickets and other violations. You don't see the operations getting drugs off the street, you dont see the gang suppression teams. You dont see police trying to get teenage girls and boys off the street who post themselves on Craigs List. You don't see the domestic violence team, the child abuse team at hospitals with babies and juveniles who have been abused by their parents, you dont see them pick up runaway kids from abusive parents, you dont see the charity work they do, you don't see the cops who buy a homeless man food. People don't want to see the good in law enforcement because they have a skewed view of what they want to see after ONE COP makes a heinous error.

For all the amazing, positive things law enforcement does on a daily basis, people see what they want to see. What this job has taught me so far is that you can't make people care no matter how hard you might want it.

Tell the families of these people that their service wasn't appreciated.. http://www.odmp.org/

Here is the last law enforcement officer to be killed in California. Please tell his expectant wife and three children his service meant nothing. http://www.odmp.org/officer/19700-officer-joseph-sanders By the way, just prior to his entering the CHP, he had spent years in Iraq serving the country.

Do cops make mistakes? Yes and they are punished for it.



Do you make mistakes? Next time you want to judge someone look in the mirror first.

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I am the furthest thing from a cop basher and appreciate greatly the sacrifice that law enforcement officers and their families make for their communities on a daily basis. I cannot imagine putting my life on the line like that nor can I imagine having a loved one in law enforcement and living with the fear that something may happen to them.

This however, is disgusting. I am sick to my stomach after viewing these videos. This does not look like a mistake to me. I do make mistakes, but my mistakes have never included shooting someone who did not present a danger to me or others in the back while he is laying on the ground. Yes, the video is grainy, but this looks like pretty good evidence of murder to me. No, we cannot hear what was said, but that is not relevant, he could have said to the cop "I am going to shoot you in the head right now" but the truth of the matter is that he was in no position to do that, he did not appear to go for a gun, or any other kind of weapon that could have harmed the officers or anyone else. He didn't even appear to move before the shot was fired. Ugh....

I just had to respond to this. SDL, thank you and your husband for doing what you do and I am positive that the vast majority of law enforcement officers are honest people making a great sacrifice for their communities. On the other hand, that does not change the fact that I am beyond petrified if my BF is stopped by the police (NYPD) for even a routine traffic check on the offchance of him getting stuck with one of the few "bad" ones...it is what it is....
 
I don't know if this was mentioned already but I was reading an Oakland blogger's site about the protests and it was mentioned that the officer thought he was drawing his taser not his gun and in the heat of the moment made a very bad tragic mistake.

Now I'm not condoning what happened. It was horrific. I just though I would add that point.

ETA: I love Oakland so very much, I consider it one of my hometowns and I'm really saddened to see all of the vandalism, looting and destruction.
 
Date: 1/9/2009 8:41:29 PM
Author: violet02
I don''t know if this was mentioned already but I was reading an Oakland blogger''s site about the protests and it was mentioned that the officer thought he was drawing his taser not his gun and in the heat of the moment made a very bad tragic mistake.

Now I''m not condoning what happened. It was horrific. I just though I would add that point.

ETA: I love Oakland so very much, I consider it one of my hometowns and I''m really saddened to see all of the vandalism, looting and destruction.
Click to expand...


no one knows what the officer thought: he was NEVER interviewed by anyone, not even his own agency. he was scheduled to be interviewed on the 7th but instead his lawyer and a union representative showed up to submit his resignation letter. anything about what the officer was thinking is mere speculation. no one, not the Bart Board of Directors, his superiors within the Bart agency, the DA, etc. has spoken to the officer.

re the vandalism, looting, and destruction: it was minimal. see: http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_11410237?source=email

"The lingering protests and scattered nighttime violence downtown this week surprised a lot of people, as if the bold response seemed out of sync with the shooting. But even though the victim was from Hayward, and the incident took place on BART property and involved BART police, the story line for many has moved on — to Oakland.
"It''s an accident of geography that the riots took place here and that the focus is now on Oakland," said Steven Lavoie, longtime city observer and librarian at the Oakland History Room at the main library. "The problems between law enforcement and minority communities are not unique to Oakland. But because of our large minority population, these issues come to a head here."

movie zombie




 
Date: 1/9/2009 9:24:51 PM
Author: movie zombie

Date: 1/9/2009 8:41:29 PM
Author: violet02
I don''t know if this was mentioned already but I was reading an Oakland blogger''s site about the protests and it was mentioned that the officer thought he was drawing his taser not his gun and in the heat of the moment made a very bad tragic mistake.

Now I''m not condoning what happened. It was horrific. I just though I would add that point.

ETA: I love Oakland so very much, I consider it one of my hometowns and I''m really saddened to see all of the vandalism, looting and destruction.
Click to expand...



no one knows what the officer thought: he was NEVER interviewed by anyone, not even his own agency. he was scheduled to be interviewed on the 7th but instead his lawyer and a union representative showed up to submit his resignation letter. anything about what the officer was thinking is mere speculation. no one, not the Bart Board of Directors, his superiors within the Bart agency, the DA, etc. has spoken to the officer.

re the vandalism, looting, and destruction: it was minimal. see: http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_11410237?source=email

''The lingering protests and scattered nighttime violence downtown this week surprised a lot of people, as if the bold response seemed out of sync with the shooting. But even though the victim was from Hayward, and the incident took place on BART property and involved BART police, the story line for many has moved on — to Oakland.

''It''s an accident of geography that the riots took place here and that the focus is now on Oakland,'' said Steven Lavoie, longtime city observer and librarian at the Oakland History Room at the main library. ''The problems between law enforcement and minority communities are not unique to Oakland. But because of our large minority population, these issues come to a head here.''

movie zombie




Click to expand...
I wonder if that''s truly what happened. We won''t know until he''s been addressed whenever that happens.

In re: to the looting and damage. KCBS said this morning that it will cost somewhere between 30 and 40k to replace windows and fix the damages down to the downtown area. I also watched a lot of youtube videos of people in the riots showing quite a few cars with their back windows being smashed and side windows. Also cars being lit on fire.

That may not be city-wide destruction but it''s still destruction.
 
Date: 1/9/2009 8:41:29 PM
Author: violet02
I don't know if this was mentioned already but I was reading an Oakland blogger's site about the protests and it was mentioned that the officer thought he was drawing his taser not his gun and in the heat of the moment made a very bad tragic mistake.

Now I'm not condoning what happened. It was horrific. I just though I would add that point.

ETA: I love Oakland so very much, I consider it one of my hometowns and I'm really saddened to see all of the vandalism, looting and destruction.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but this is a BS cover-up.

Would you honestly mix up a handgun with a taser? If this guy would he has No Business carrying one. Police work is all about "the heat of the moment", and he should be well trained and prepared for such a situation.
I will also ask, why would you need to even taser a guy who's face down in cuffs?


Pls tell me you don't really believe that?
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