Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of custom?

[TravelingGal]

Another thread got me thinking, so since I didn't want to hijack...

A couple of PSers have now said that they know of instances where a custom job is agreed upon, but the cost changes in the middle of the project and the customer is asked to pay more. I have not heard of such a thing before and was interested in how often this happens.

PSers - has this happened to you, and if so, what recourse did you have?

Vendors - is this normal for something like this to happen? Is there something, as consumers, we are not aware of? SHOULD it happen? This is assuming there are no surprises or changes on the customer's end. The design was agreed upon, the stone purchased, and no delay in the timeline of the project from the initial quote. If it does happen, what do you do as a vendor?

 

[Maisie]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

This hasn't happened to me but I wouldn't be very impressed if it did. When you ask a vendor for a quote its up to them to set the price. Its not very good to change that price halfway through. All the quotes I have received have been good for 3 days or whatever. If you decide not to take the price it could change if they recalculate it... and that's fine. But to wait till you commit then say 'well actually its gone up by $500 or $1000'... not good really.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

Great question.
Quoting jobs is an incredibly difficult - yet vital aspect of the ring business.
What people might not realize is that the nature of jewelry manufacturing means that hidden costs pop up on a rather frequent basis.
Parts that are cast may need to be remade after the first- or second- try.
If the polisher is a little too heavy with their hand, a hand forged part might be compromised, and need to be re-made. Stones can get damaged- no matter how great the setter. So many things can add cost to a project.

So, when generating a quote, the seller needs to decide what their course of action is.
One case involves spreading that risk over all their work- which means higher prices on all pieces.
Or, the seller can quote as low as possible anticipating a best case basis, and be faced with cost overruns.

Then, if the poop does hit the fan in case two, the seller is faced with this question: How much is your reputation worth?
If it's not a lot, then it's easy to go back on one's word, and change a price.

When we're faced with this issue, the value of reputation is paramount.
I suggest consumers ask this question before they buy. "What if my custom made piece does not come out as planned?"

It's also noteworthy that when people shop price, the result is a lot of sellers willing to cut corners to get to a lower price.

Last note- I realize a lot of shoppers don't understand what's involved with giving quotes- which may lead them to ask for more than they might if they knew what it took. Anyway, if a seller is not freely giving quotes, it's not always due to bad reasons. But sometimes it is.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

I've paid less for custom than I was quoted. But not more. Well, not unless I changed something that raised the price (which I've done once).

 

[TravelingGal]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

Thanks for the thoughtful post, David.

Funny, I've been on PS for years, and I really didn't ask that question: what if it doesn't turn out right? I've been lucky in that all my projects do turn out fine. Not being particularly detail oriented probably helped in my case because the results are usually good by me.

In the first part of your answer, that definitely does seem like something that should be factored in the cost of the ring and not passed to the consumer after the fact if the bench screws up.

Maybe in the industry it is common that the hidden costs pop up on a regular basis, but here on PS, it seems so far that most PSers don't get hit with an increase in price mid stream.

 

[mandasand]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

Shouldn't the seller research all the costs during the quote process, like costs for accent diamonds, metal, plus design, fabrication, etc.? It seems crazy for a jeweler to come back and charge $500-1000 more because the ring required more metal than originally quoted. I can understand if the customer is making request after request and changing the design. But, once the design is approved, costs are agreed upon, and the bench starts work, why wouldn't they just eat the cost if it required more metal or an accent stone needed to be swapped?

I think you said it has something to do with a seller's reputation.

I suggested in another thread that if I have a freelance project with a client and they go over the number of changes I stated in the quote, I often will just eat that cost, within reason. After a point, I do think it's fair to have a discussion with the customer. But, I put customer service first and foremost, always.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

You're welcome TG!

I find it acceptable if a job has unforeseen overruns that result in added value to the consumer- such as- a job that was supposed to take .50cts, and took .60cts - in such cases, a merchant can ask politely if the consumer would not mind paying for the difference.
It could be thorny if no agreement could be reached.

ETA:
mandasand- I'm with you 100%.
I can't speak about any seller or their practices remember.

If I was advising a friend in how to be successful in business, I'd tell them their reputation is the most valuable thing the possess- and the most important time to remember that is all the time- but especially when things don't go exactly as planned.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

There are lots of differences in the quoting practices. I know vendors that quote you straight out with one lump sum price. And others that break out the pricing by metal, diamond, and labor. And everything in between.

I do think that the best way to make sure you are not going to have problems is to spell everything out. When I do a custom quote request with someone I haven't worked with before on a project that is complicated in any way I make sure to ask (if it's not stated) the quality of the melee as well as color and clarity, the approximate carat weight, the estimated metal weight, and what the labor includes (how much give and take on the CAD, do I get a wax sent to me or just the pics?), whether final shipping is included, whether tax (if applicable) is included. I also make sure I ask for leadtime upfront OR (if it's time sensitive) give a deadline for the product to be in hand.

That's also why I favor working with vendors I have already had great experiences with. I know you had an unfortunate experience with BGD but my own experiences have been smooth and easy. I send them an email and ask for a ballpark quote. Then if I decide to move forward I do, and that's when the firm costs are put into place.

I do think that some customers ask for changes that they don't understand might lead to extra costs. And I prefer it when vendors state immediately when a change will add to the cost.

Take my halo with Steven:
I sent him pics and asked him for a quote to laser off my existing halo and replace it, using the same stones, with a new one.
He gave me a flat price. It included shipping, metal and labor.
Once he had the ring in hand we spoke and I asked him about changing my melee out for 1/2 pointers. He told me it would be an additional cost. I approved it.
Then when my ring was done he sent it to me. It cost exactly what he said it would.

 

[TravelingGal]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

wow gypsy, it's a wonder I haven't gotten screwed. I have no idea what kind of melee 23rd street used, but since they added it on as a "gift", I didn't care! Plus I couldn't see them using crap (Patrick told me yesterday it was VS clarity, so I'm fine with that.)

If you are referring to me for BGD, I was pretty lax with the work order, as it was a stock item tweaked, I think - plus I trusted they would make a fine product (and they do!). My only issues with them was timeline, and I was very clear in emails. That's where the problem arose. They certainly didn't raise the price on me or anything!

I'm doing another custom project with 23rd shortly and I'll probably just go with it as I have in the past, but it really makes me think about what to ask for bigger projects!

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

I write contracts for a living so I tend toward over precise and I have worked in Procurement with vendors for 6 years so... used to making sure I have all my bases covered. I terrified my wedding florist at first with my quote request form. She thought I was going to be a pain and to this day she's amazed at how easy I was to work with once I decided on her. I'm a tough 'interviewer' but once I hire someone I trust them to know what they are doing and pretty much just wait till I get the CADs. Call the vendor to discuss any changes. Follow up with an email that recaps the conversation. Then I give the go ahead and wait till I get my piece.

I usually just spell out what I want upfront. I'm pretty specific about my projects.

SO -- my next 'big' purchase (big for me, not for most) is going to be a seven stone band. What I will probably do is pick three vendors to send out qoute requests to and this is how I would word it IF I haven't worked with them before.

____

Hello! I am in the market for the following custom CAD and cast platinum ring. If you can please provide me with a firm quote for what this will cost me, out the door (tax, shipping, metal, labor, etc.) and breakdown the costs for me so I can understand how to are computing things, I would appreciate it. Please date the quote and let me know how long it is good for.

I want a bar set 7 stone band. I want 15 point stones in H/I color and eyeclean SI clarity for a total of 1 ctw. I want very well cut super bright melee, but do not need hearts and arrows stones. I would like the setting to be platinum with a mirror finish and I would like it to be identical in design to the one pictured in the attached pictures. Please note the A) proportion of the bars to the stones and B) the comfort fit tapering shank and C) the low profile scooped out closed gallery with the holes under each stone. These details are important to me and I want the final product to incorporate all of them.

I would want this project completed and in my hands on or before September 2nd. And I would need a size 6.5. Also please specify the alloy of Platinum you prefer to use, if you please.

If you can provide me with a quote (if there are any deviations in color or clarity of the stones in your quote please let me know) in the next week I would appreciate it.

Thank you!
Gypsy

Here are the pictures:

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

But-- with a vendor I've worked with before? Here's what I'd send.

For example BGD:

Hi Lesley, It's me. I have picked out my B-day gift. Can you see if you can find this EXACT (I adore this particular design) setting from a casting house for me? I love the: A) proportion of the bars to the stones and B) the comfort fit tapering shank and C) the low profile scooped out closed gallery. If you CAN find it can you quote me for the band, size 6.5 in platinum with seven 15 pointers (H/I SI eyeclean is fine)?

If you can't find it can you give me a custom quote for CAD for it?

I'd want it in hand for September 2nd and am ready to move on it ASAP.

Best,
Me

 

[TravelingGal]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

Great post Gypsy!

David, I know you can't comment on practices of other vendors. I was just interested in vendors' takes on what they do, or have run into, because I had just not heard of this happening with PS vendors before.

Seems like so far though, vendors aren't interested in spilling how they do things.

In seriousness though, sometimes I do think consumers aren't educated enough when it comes to custom and what to expect (as I've said, I just think generally I've gotten lucky, but I certainly don't ask all the right questions). It would be good to give PSers something to chew on, so that they aren't surprised as the process goes on. I think someone (maybe Haven?) started a custom thread some time ago, so maybe that one would be good to look up.

But yeah, I still don't understand why a vendor who, if they care about their reputation, would raise prices midstream...I just figure there must be a good reason if it happens, otherwise the money, not service, must be the bottom line. And in business, I guess when push comes to shove, the bottom line IS the bottom line?

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

With vendors, long distance especially, it's important to understand that your emails are part of your contract with them. So for me, I make sure my emails are very precise as to what I expect.

The key words in my first email are "FIRM" quote and "out the door" and then the list of what out the door includes. That means-- I'm going to hold you to that quote and it better be a complete quote. Then it's "these detail are important to me"-- that lets the vendor that I consider those details to be "material" to the contract-- just in case my request for that "EXACT" setting is interpreted too broadly (that any bar set closed basket setting will do). The date I expect it by. And then the statement that any color or clarity changes should be listed (so they can't come back and say... well, we quoted you for H SI, but we USED F/G VS so it's gonna cost you more. No, that won't fly with me). It's my way of signaling to the vendor: speak now or forever hold your peace. And I'd flat out ask for a refund if they didn't keep to the quote-- breach of contract.

As for why more vendors aren't responding. Most of the our 'talkative vendors' don't really do much custom work. GOG does it, but is not known for it. Infinity doesn't do it so that's John and Paul, . JBEG doesn't anymore. Wink does, but doesn't post here often any more. David has responded. Gary doesn't, to my knowledge do much. Mike and Victor do-- and maybe they will respond. But Mike doesn't handle pricing himself so probably not. I don't know if Bryan from WF handles the custom side of things, but if he does-- maybe he'll respond. JA doesn't do custom any more from what I understand.

The most popular vendors on here for custom are: Victor, Leon (who doesn't post), Steven (who doesn't post), Mike (who doesn't do pricing), BGD (who doesn't post), WF so maybe Bryan might, and ERD (who doesn't post). That's pretty much it.

 

[Maisie]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

Gypsy, next time I decide to buy a piece of jewellery I am going to ask you to help me write the email! If I would be so exact in my first email I would save myself and the vendor a whole lot of time. I'm going to save that post and refer back to it in future!

 

[TravelingGal]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

With vendors, long distance especially, it's important to understand that your emails are part of your contract with them. So for me, I make sure my emails are very precise as to what I expect.

The key words in my first email are "FIRM" quote and "out the door" and then the list of what out the door includes. That means-- I'm going to hold you to that quote and it better be a complete quote. Then it's "these detail are important to me"-- that lets the vendor that I consider those details to be "material" to the contract-- just in case my request for that "EXACT" setting is interpreted too broadly (that any bar set closed basket setting will do). The date I expect it by. And then the statement that any color or clarity changes should be listed (so they can't come back and say... well, we quoted you for H SI, but we USED F/G VS so it's gonna cost you more. No, that won't fly with me). It's my way of signaling to the vendor: speak now or forever hold your peace. And I'd flat out ask for a refund if they didn't keep to the quote-- breach of contract.

As for why more vendors aren't responding. Most of the our 'talkative vendors' don't really do much custom work. GOG does it, but is not known for it. Infinity doesn't do it so that's John and Paul, . JBEG doesn't anymore. Wink does, but doesn't post here often any more. David has responded. Gary doesn't, to my knowledge do much. Mike and Victor do-- and maybe they will respond. But Mike doesn't handle pricing himself so probably not. I don't know if Bryan from WF handles the custom side of things, but if he does-- maybe he'll respond. JA doesn't do custom any more from what I understand.

The most popular vendors on here for custom are: Victor, Leon (who doesn't post), Steven (who doesn't post), Mike (who doesn't do pricing), BGD (who doesn't post), WF so maybe Bryan might, and ERD (who doesn't post). That's pretty much it.

Ah got it, makes sense! JBEG has done plenty of custom though, so they could certainly put in their two cents. I'd be interested in hearing from WF too, but I guess you're right, those two would sort of be it from the "talkative" vendors, and Bryan doesn't even chat that much on here!

Personally, I can understand why vendors don't touch custom!

 

[canuk-gal]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

HI:

I have never done custom long distance and wouldn't. I do not tend to need control over every detail--but I want to see my sketches and waxes F2F since i am not interested in remakes.

I have great success with the work I have done--most everything I do is custom. BTW, I don't get surprises--only receive bonuses like extra diamonds and discounts. The work is top notch--and that keeps me going back; but I won't lie, the little extras are great.

cheers--Sharon

 

[DiamondBrokersofFlorida]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

Sometimes, the cost to the vendor will change in the middle of the job and I think that might be what is happening. Sometimes a designer won't quote for a change until the order is placed, or even sometimes it is after the piece is even picked up and gone. So in answer to the post title, it is probably being passed on from the supplier. It happens to the vendor as well many times. Also if your ordering process takes a lengthy time, things can change like the gold market, diamond prices, etc. Sometimes clients take months or even years to finalize a project.

 

[m-2-b]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

From my personal experience, I've actually gotten a refund from VC when the actual total carat weight used for diamond melee was less than what was originally quoted for the custom piece. So this was a definite plus!

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

Sometimes, the cost to the vendor will change in the middle of the job and I think that might be what is happening. Sometimes a designer won't quote for a change until the order is placed, or even sometimes it is after the piece is even picked up and gone. So in answer to the post title, it is probably being passed on from the supplier. It happens to the vendor as well many times. Also if your ordering process takes a lengthy time, things can change like the gold market, diamond prices, etc. Sometimes clients take months or even years to finalize a project.

That's one of the reasons I prefer to work with companies that do all the work in house. In they have their own designers, CAD experts, casting onsite it means less surprises. That's one of the things that I appreciate about BGD and one of the reasons why I think there are less bad 'suprises' with handforged, the person you are directly contracting with has more control over the process. Whenever there are subcontractors for work, in just about any field, there is more uncertainty. Plus, I prefer having "one throat to choke" as it were. I have no patience for finger pointing and someone saying: It's not MY fault, my subcontractor changed their rates and I'm just passing it on, OR It's not my fault, the casting company did it-- or whatever. Nope. Not for me. And I AM willing to pay more for a company that has the ability to do it all in house, rather than subcontract out, because I recognize that there is a HUGE investment in having all of that under one roof, that it benefits me, and is worth the extra expenditure on my part.

 

[Andelain]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

...........WF so maybe Bryan might, and ERD (who doesn't post). That's pretty much it.

I can speak from my own experience with WF on this subject. When they quoted my pendant, the price was EXTREMELY reasonable, especially for a completely custom job. I was very pleasantly surprised, and paid it gladly. I found out months later when inquiring about another project that the person who'd estimated the gold weight from my original drawing underestimated the gold weight by a fair margin. WF ate their mistake, and I'd have never even known of it if I hadn't asked why a smaller project came back with a higher quote.

 

[Mike R]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

Like Gypsy said, I personally do not do the quoting for my work, I leave that upto my Father so that I can concentrate on the creative side of things, but I do understand how our system works.

Quoting for us is extremely diffacult, all of my pieces are handmade and I have no stock designs, every piece is very different to the next.
We always quote a maximum price, in that price there will always be a fudge factor for things that may take longer to make than we originally thought or incase the piece needed more gems or metal.
This means that the final price a client pays is nearly always less than the price quoted.

Occasionally we do not allow a big enough fudge factor in the quote, but we would never pass those costs on, we learn from our under estimation and move on.

Ball park estimates are different, they are normally very loose estimates that are done before a design is agreed appon, they can vary a lot depending on where the final design ends up.

I would just also like to add that I'm not accepting anymore new projects for the rest of this year, unless I have a cancelation my time is booked out until early next year, just incase anyone is looking for a quote

 

[VRBeauty]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

This is a great topic - thanks T-gal! Professor Gypsy - I too am "taking notes."

ETA and Mike R - who are you? for next year?

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

I would just also like to add that I'm not accepting anymore new projects for the rest of this year, unless I have a cancelation my time is booked out until early next year, just incase anyone is looking for a quote

Random aside, but congrats on this.. Is this a typical level of custom for you or has PS exposure increased your bookings? Just curious!

 

[Mike R]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

I would just also like to add that I'm not accepting anymore new projects for the rest of this year, unless I have a cancelation my time is booked out until early next year, just incase anyone is looking for a quote

Random aside, but congrats on this.. Is this a typical level of custom for you or has PS exposure increased your bookings? Just curious!

Thanks Dreamer, I'm always kept very busy, when I'm working with a client I do everything myself personally (emails, design, handmake and set stones) so this only lets me make about 50 original pieces a year.

 

[Mike R]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

This is a great topic - thanks T-gal! Professor Gypsy - I too am "taking notes."

ETA and Mike R - who are you? for next year?

Do you mean how am I for next year? At the moment I have about five pieces penciled in for next year.

 

[ericad]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

We've never changed a price quote after starting a project unless the customer asked for a material change mid-stream. Quoting is moderately complex, but if a vendor is in the business of making settings they need to be an expert at this or suffer the consequences of misquoting, IMO. Of course, it's important to note your vendor's policies - for example, how long will they honor a quote (for us it was 14 days)? But once you've signed off on the work order and paid your deposit and started the project I feel the price should be locked down unless the customer decides on a costly change.

There have been a handful of times when I've under quoted because I didn't anticipate that a particular design was more complex, or I've underestimated the amount of metal, etc. In these instances we've honored the price and eaten the extra cost and the customer is none the wiser. On occasion I've needed to check with our jeweler before finalizing a quote, but in this case I let the customer know that pricing is tentative, pending verification with the jeweler, etc.

As for what happens if the piece doesn't turn out the way the customer expected - this gets very tricky. Custom is typically non refundable, but it depends on whether you mean the customer just didn't like the style, the piece didn't turn out like the CAD, or if there are quality concerns. Again, it's important to understand the policies of the vendor you're using and, if the policies aren't crystal clear, ask for clarification in writing before embarking on the project.

Communication is the key to a successful project, on both sides. But every vendor will differ in how they run their setting business.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

This is an important topic. Really good communication is the key, especially if you are working remotely with the vendor. Gypsy’s advice about specifying the details and having a written record of those details is a great practice. And treating it as a contract is the definitely the proper mindset to have.

Different companies approach all kinds of issues in many different ways. This is certainly true of custom work. Again, the advice already given in this thread is excellent – understand the company you are dealing with, their policies and practices. When in doubt over-communicate!

I will say that custom work is possibly the most challenging part of the jewelry business. In many ways it is also the most satisfying (provided the customer is happy). But many companies just don’t have the expertise or bandwidth to do it properly. Even though we have virtually everything under one roof, it is quite challenging for us and we restrict ourselves much more today in order to avoid taking on projects that we don’t have a high degree of confidence will turn out well for the customer.

Our practice is to gather as much information as possible from the customer and return a FIRM quote. We want to avoid ever having to increase a price- that just does NOT feel right from a customer’s perspective. I believe that in any cases where we have had to adjust quotes upwards, there have been clear extenuating circumstances such as substantive changes on the customer’s part during the process.

I will reiterate that it is a good idea to specify all details that are of significance in writing. Our quote form is based upon the information we receive but does not necessarily restate all those details. That is, our customer receives a quote form for approval that specifies a final FIRM price for the project in 14, 18, plat containing x carats of mellee with quality specified. Therefore anything discussed with a sales consultant verbally and not specified in writing could leave open some opportunity for misunderstanding or miscommunication between the sales and production.

We do our best to over-deliver, and we believe in paying for our own mistakes. We try to impart an understanding to our customer of the importance of providing solid information on the front end. What makes this a challenging proposition is that there is always some differential between expectation and reality. Many times the reality actually exceeds the expectation and then all is well with the world.

 

[distracts]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

It's very interesting to hear from the vendors on this. Thanks for your replies. And Gypsy, for your incredibly detailed reply - I have bookmarked this thread as a reference!

Of the two custom jobs I have had done, both were firm quotes and that was the amount paid. One I paid half ahead of time and half when the item was completed, and the other I paid at time of completion after affirming I did indeed want the item (it was made by a friend). Of the semi-custom thing I've had done (my e-ring, which was an alteration of a setting they already made), the price quote was firm. On the other hand, the local jeweler that I use gives a range, from his "best case scenario lowest price" to "dear god what happened, it is actually way more expensive." Once he actually starts working on the piece he calls to give us a more accurate price. So far the final price has always been the lowest one. If he finds something that he could repair that wasn't in the initial estimate or that he could repair but would be safe to leave as-is, he calls to ask what we want done and what the price difference would be. I have friends who have had custom work done by him and he is the same way for custom, and for them it has also been near the lower end of his estimate range.

 

[TravelingGal]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

Thanks to all the vendors who responded so thoughtfully. Seems this generally shouldn't happen, especially if communication is good!

 

[Christina...]

Re: Vendors and Customers -Price change in the middle of cus

I haven't done a custom project yet, but I'm one of the very lucky people getting ready to do a project with Mike and I can say that the process with him is super easy! We sent a number of emails back and forth, and once it was determined that the project could be completed within my budget, he explained that the final quote would be given when we agreed on the final design and explained just as he did here that any savings would be passed back to me. Piece of cake! I also just wanted to mention that Mike has been extremely attentive and encourages strong open communication, I've felt from the moment he emailed me that he understood what I was hoping to achieve with this project, that, more than anything else is what made me realize that he was the person I wanted to work with.

T-Gal, I think it was a great idea that you started this thread. It seems that each vendor has their own process for custom work. As someone who has never done a custom piece, I was intimidated, having no clue where to start, what questions to ask, who to ask, blah blah. I was lucky and Mike made it really simple for me. But I think that there is a lot of valuable information in this thread. It seems that even veterans to the custom process find that working with vendors is different one to the next. I think that Gypsy gives excellent advice as to how to protect yourself and ensure that both the vendor and the consumer have the same expectations and happy experience. This thread should definitely be linked in the helpful threads archive!!