urgently need help deciding on a perfect diamond =)

[slammie]

This is an awesome forum, can''t believe the wealth of imformation I have gained.
However, my fiancee and I are in process of deciding on a diamond and urgently need some advice on which stone would be better to buy.
What confuses me is tht the non branded diamond scores higher on the HCA and AGA DIY. I know that there are arguements that say that H&A do not necessarily dictate better light return, fire and scintillation, but can I simply rely on the HCA and AGA to help me decide the the #1 will be more brilliant? What do you think of the pricing?

1) 1.13 (AGS triple "0")
F color
VS2
Table 57%
Crown angle 34.2
Crown Height 14.4%
Pavillion depth 43.1%
Pavillion angle 40.9{
Girdle - medium fac.
Total Depth - 60.7%
6.75-6.72X4.09
$7200.00

2) 1.14 (branded H&A)
G color
VS2
Table 55%
Crown angle 34.8
Crown Height 15.4%
Pavillion depth 43.0%
Pavillion angle 40.9
Girdle - 0.7 to 1.2% thin
Total Depth - 60.6%
6.80-6.82X4.13
$8000.00[/b]

Any advice/comments would be greatly welcomed!! Kindof under time pressure as well....

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Both are pretty perfect.
I think the deciding factor is who would you prefer to buy from?

 

[Rhino]

I'd be more partial to the first but would also like to know optical symmetry and minor facet arrangement.

 

[Rhino]

Gary, just for giggles check this out. http://www.goodoldgold.com/1_23ct_f_vs2_h%26a.htm

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Good example of a very poor looking AGS 0 proportioned stone Jonathon

It is also a good e.g. of the difference between the idealscope and firescope-Lightscope.
If you look at the stone, I doubt that you will see the darkness and contrast shown in the stars displayed on the lightscope image on your website.

Bruce Harding (Beryl) and I have had many discussions about the actual need for stones to have a goodly amount of darkness from an observer's head. I suggest you consider shrinking the hole size in your device Rhino

It makes the pohotgraphy a teeny bit toughter - but you are a master of it anyway

thanks for psoting the link Rhino

 

[slammie]

Cutnut, Rhino thanks for your two cents. BTW, they are from the same vendor. I am leaning towards the #1 as well, but I guess my heart is tugging towards #2 because it's got that "H&A". How important is the H&A? I've heard so many opinions on this. Rhino, when you say optical symmetry, do you mean data from a sarin's report or data such as from a brilliance scope.
The #2 stone again is rated lower according to the HCA and AGA. Is this because H&A doesn't necessary mean that it will be a more brilliant and better cut stone? If it is, it appears that there is a premium put on the H&A stone because of the H&A...What do you think of the pricing?

Thanks!

 

[slammie]

Cutnut, any chance you can do the diamcal thing for these?

I've seen your posts before and I've thought that is so cool!!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I have modelled them to check for cheated girdles etc - trust me - they are both great and the pics will not reveal anything

 

[Rhino]

Hey slammie,

----------------
On 9/27/2003 10:03:04 PM slammie wrote:











Cutnut, Rhino thanks for your two cents. BTW, they are from the same vendor. I am leaning towards the #1 as well, but I guess my heart is tugging towards #2 because it's got that 'H&A'.

Just how do you know this? Is it in the stores personal inventory and they have actually shown you or have you seen pictures or neither? If so, good. If not let's see the evidence. There are many stones being advertised as H&A that simply do not cut the grade. The stone I posted the link to Gary on is a diamond from a wholesalers inventory who advertises the stuff as H&A's. That is a clear reject although it is priced accordingly. Too bad as I commonly need 1.2xct F VS2's and would have happily purchased it for stock.

How important is the H&A?

We demonstrate the importance of this daily. The craftsmanship of the diamond (it's make or symmetry) is one of the greatest contributing factors to the diamonds beauty in many different light conditions. I cover all this stuff in our tutorial on cut with graphics demonstrating what I'm talking about.

I've heard so many opinions on this. Rhino, when you say optical symmetry, do you mean data from a sarin's report or data such as from a brilliance scope.

Both a Sarin and a BrillianceScope can give you an idea of optical symmetry but it is only the Isee2 that digitally quantifies that in it's analysis of a diamond (3rd column in it's report). One aspect of optical symmetry can be observed in an H&A viewer and is the primary tool for observing that natural phenomena in precision cut diamonds cut to specific sets of proportions. When you're observing the Hearts pattern... if lower girdle facets are not cut to consistent and proper length it will disrupt the Hearts pattern. So an appraiser experienced with an H&A viewer can see the consistency to which minor facets have been cut as well as major facets when they know what to look for.

Our LightScope (red reflector analysis) not only shows us precision in optical symmetry in the face up position (only an H&A viewer can show it from the bottom or pavilion side) but also shows us how evenly the light is distributed throughout a diamond when observed in the static position. A stone with excellent optical symmetry will usually be characterized by a Sarin analysis that will show very tight variances on a facet by facet analysis too.

The #2 stone again is rated lower according to the HCA and AGA. Is this because H&A doesn't necessary mean that it will be a more brilliant and better cut stone? If it is, it appears that there is a premium put on the H&A stone because of the H&A...What do you think of the pricing?

There are many different scenarios you can have here. For example stone #1 does have excellent *average* proportions but we know nothing of it's opticaly symmetry or variances which affects it's appearance moreso in the diffuse/ambient light conditions. In direct light conditions you're virtually guaranteed a winner with the proportions of either. Stone #1 may indeed be an H&A and the dude just doesn't know (though it's unlikely) and the branded one may indeed be more bogus! I've run into that situation before where the advertised H&A had no business being called an H&A and the other which wasn't turned out to be the better stone! I'm not saying this is your case but you will never know unless you have a pro look at them both.

With regards to price on the branded stone the question you have to ask yourself is do you value the diamond and the place of business you're dealing with? Sure there are less expensive deals on the net but there is a value in face to face business and having someone there to take care of ya'll just in case. Especially if it's a local B&M who will be there to service you and the ring for years to come.

My .02c

Rhino

 

[Rhino]

I thought you'd like that Gary.

There were a couple like that. I'll use them in a future tutorial or suttin. They're great for demonstrating the points you mentioned with regards to the AGS scale and what people can potentially end up with if they don't do their homework.




All the best,


Rhino

 

[aljdewey]

Slammie: If they are both from the same vendor, I'd say view them side by side and pick the one that appeals to you visually.




A value comment, though: I think the stone #2 is overpriced. This stone should run somewhere in the neighborhood of $6175 per carat.....there are a bunch of G/VS2, H&A stones on the search here, and most of them are priced at that. That means stone #2 even as an H&A should price out at just below $7,050. Even on the high end (which was $6600 per carat), it would price out at about $7500.




Personally, I'd select #1.

 

[magna2]

Slammie,

By the description of the diamonds, both seems to be great diamonds therefore I would go with the first diamond if going with the best bang for the buck.

I agree with aljdewey that the second diamond is overpriced but then again you mentioned that it is a branded diamond - meaning that you pay a premium on something that is not necessary a better performer but some company has inscribed a trademarked logo on the diamond.

 

[afriend]

----------------
On 9/27/2003 6:53:20 PM Rhino wrote:


Gary, just for giggles check this out. http://www.goodoldgold.com/1_23ct_f_vs2_h%26a.htm
----------------

Jonathan, it would be great if you could show the ISEE2 analysis for this or a similar "dead" triple ideal stone. I can't wait to see the new section of your tutorial showing (with real examples and results from all of your gizmos) that some very good or even good stones can have better performance than a bad triple ideal.

However, I'd appreciate if you could answer this question:

If a stone is a true triple ideal H&A (not a bogus H&A), have you still seen it be a poor performer?

 

[derekinla]

I agree with aljdewey,

Ask the vendor to ship em to you or to an independent appraiser so you can view em side by side. If the visual appearance is close, go with #1 as the price seems reasonable. If #2 is clearly the better stone, maybe you can negotiate with the vendor so that it is more in line with other internet prices. Good luck!

 

[aljdewey]

Slammie: This is more than a 10% price difference....not small change.




A suggestion: call the vendor and ask to speak to Brian (the cutter) about the stones. I'm sure he'll be very helpful....and it could well be that the F stone has a beautiful pattern but is just not quite "crisp" enough to be branded. Keep in mind that the hearts are only visible when the diamond is unset, and frankly, both of these stones should exhibit awesome arrows when set.




To be honest, I'd highly doubt that the miniscule differences between these stones would be discernable to the unaided human eye. So, do you want to pay $800 to "know" that you have an H&A stone.




In my amateur opinion, I think the F is a better value and should be every bit as good a performer, and that would be my choice.

 

[slammie]

Thanks to all for your invaluable opinions! I am leaning towards the #1 too. Will try to get some analysis Rhino, but only a few vendors offer the megascope, brilliance scope, idealscope, etc! It's really amazing how deceiving a AGS triple"0" can be! I've learned so much on this forum

BTW Goodoldgold was an awesome site with really informative info...hard to navigate though! and would loved to have found a diamond there, but I found it to be a bit more pricey.