urgent: Ideal-Scope and Colored Stones

[movie zombie]

besides a jeweler''s loupe, what tools do i need for a visual examination of a color gem other than a color diamond? is an Ideal-Scope overkill or even useful? is a 10x jeweler''s loupe sufficient?

i''ve posted this as urgent as i should be receiving a really nice stone to preview for purchase....

thanks for any and all help.

peace, movie zombie

 

[valeria101]

What would the IS tell you about a color stone

It doesn't help grade color, and that's the main thing that counts. Windows and extincltion can be judged without any aid.

It's hard to judge a colored stone via the IS in the usual way (color for "lickeage" & red for bright spots... etc.). I am not sure light return is all that important after all - unless you want it to be. This, if "brightness" even makes sense as a quality factor for the kind of stone you have in mind.

For now, any pricing factor I am aware of is either visible (color, finish...), or comes with a lab report (species id, enhancement status and perhaps origin). As long as there's no price associated with infinitesimal effects of optics that cannot be seen unaided, why bother ?


What do you have in mind ?

 

[movie zombie]

so, is even a 10x jeweler''s loupe even necessary? other than if i want to know where the inclusions might be?

this is coming from a very very very very good pricescoper....i''ll PM you the details.

peace, movie zombie

 

[rubydick]

The best thing for examination of any aesthetic object is the unaided human eye, backed up by Human Brain, version 1.0. No upgrades required

Seriously, don''t get hung up with the other stuff. You do not have the knowledge to use a loupe or other tools effectively; you do have the ability to decide what you like and what you don''t.

Work with a good jeweler or dealer, who can handle the other stuff (loupes, etc.) for you. That''s the best advice I can give.

 

[movie zombie]

richard,

may be true i don''t have the know-how in many ways, but what i''m wanting to do really is ''know'' my stone: inclusions, where they are, etc.

i think i did mention that i''m working with a very very very very reputable pricescoper so i''m not looking to verify this man''s word: his reputation speaks for itself.

i want to know the stone''s personality if it is to become mine and as an owner of any gem, i think i''d be remiss not to do so.

peace, movie zombie

 

[rubydick]

MV,

I've been involved with colored stones (mainly ruby & sapphire) for 25 years. Not only have I never used an Ideal Scope, I've never even heard of it.

So let me gently suggest that this tool is not essential.

When I first started in this business, I used to travel with a loupe, dichroscope, etc. etc. Now it's basically the loupe (which I often forget). Call me stupid. Or call me old. Or perhaps a better word is experienced. Wherever I go today, there's one thing I never forget. I never leave home without my eyes. And, as I said before, the gray matter that sits behind them.

But hey, I try to keep an open mind. Tell me what this "Ideal Scope" thingy does and maybe I'll be buying one.

 

[movie zombie]

Richarad,

the Ideal-Scope is out....read above in the thread. good for diamonds and light refraction which i knew already...but wanted to make sure there wasn''t a use for it with color stones. it is also useful with fancy and champagne/cognac diamonds, per garry, except for the dark cognacs. see TOOLS section here at pricescope.

i had been meaning to get a loupe...i do know how to use one...and before ordering said loupe, i wanted to see if there was anything else that a pricescoper could recommend. fortunately, the model of body i now inhabit comes with very good gray matter between the ears and good eyesight. common sense and lots of reading here at pricescope had already prepared me to use them.

peace, movie zombie

 

[valeria101]

Date: 4/4/2005 2:48:15 AM
Author: movie zombie

the Ideal-Scope is out....read above in the thread. [...] it is also useful with fancy and champagne/cognac diamonds, per garry, except for the dark cognacs

Did Garry promote his 'Scope as a tool for evaluating colored gems and colored diamonds ?

this is new...

I would understand why "top light brown" diamonds would be sorted out in the same way as whites - those are still valued for brightness not color (color being a detraction, really). But how about the rest ? If any precious stone valued for color is to be 'scoped

I might as well start considering colored CZ instead

 

[movie zombie]

no, an emphatic no, garry did not say that the ideal-scope could be used on color stones. my question to him was the ideal-scope appropriate for fancy color and champagne/cognac diamonds. his answer was yes, except for the dark cognacs.... again,

GARRY DID NOT SAY THE IDEAL-SCOPE WAS FOR USE WITH COLOR STONES.

it was just a question i threw out to pricescope to confirm that i was ordering what i needed to inspect the stone that i''ll be previewing. i like looking at stones and into stones. whatever stone i get, i want to know its personality, so to speak. a loupe will let me do that.

peace, movie zombie

 

[lonewoodminer]

Hi Movie Zombie

Whats the stone it sounds like it may be very special, cant wait to see it.
I have a little hand held led light which I find very useful for seeing inside many coloured stones without magnification, I have no idea what its called but it only cost about $12 and I find I pick it up often. Sounds to me you should get a loupe if you havent already got one because sometimes you need to get inside a stone.

Have fun
Andrew Lane

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The ideal-scope is not for colored stones because they have too low an Refreactive Index RI (below 2 - diamond is 2.4) - and have so clored stones ahve shocking windows (leakage) and rarely enough head shaodow (unless the cutter read up on Bruce Hardings theories).

I have recomended the ideal-scope for champagne diamonds.

But if you want to make pink sapphires blow your mind - then be my guest

Richard if you want to find out about the ideal-scope - or you want to be sure the tiny diamonds you use with your huge coloered rocks will really sparkle like diamonds should - then check it out here www.ideal-scope.com

 

[loupe]

Movie Zombie,

Dick is right. I would even go so far to say that without the knowledge, you are wasting money on more elaborate tools.

And yes, cut is important with colored gems. So don''t fall for that old saw that all that is important is "color, color, color!" Someone mentioned extinction and windowing, those are cut issues. If the stone has wonky facets and weird proportions, light does not travel well through the material and return the color and sparkle that you want, to your eye. Look at the gem with a fully corrected 10x loupe. These little magnifiers are easy to use, portable and cheap. The darkfield loupe combines light and magnification while leaving a hand free. These are also portable, fun to use but not as cheap. If you trust your dealer, as you said you do, then all the other terms you have read thrown around on this forum, mean nothing. I find the inclusions just as fascinating as the gem''s color, but I''m a geek and I get paid to find and plot the inner worlds of colored gems. Something else that you can easily see on the surface of gemstones is tiny abrasions that occur sometimes when parcels of gems get mashed and jostled in transit, the gems rub up against each other in the same paperand beat each other up. No worries, these minor surface "features" can be polished out.

Karen

"Gold there is, and rubies in abundance, but lips that speak knowledge are a rare jewel."

 

[valeria101]

Date: 4/4/2005 10:2:7 AM
Author: loupe

So don''t fall for that old saw that all that is important is ''color, color, color!

Well, isn''t color a result of optics as well ?

Why is it considered as somethine "else" independent of cut ?

 

[loupe]

Splitting hairs is not helping. I think you know what I am talking about. With or without an emoticon.


Karen








"Gold there is, and rubies in abundance, but lips that speak knowledge are a rare jewel."

 

[valeria101]

Date: 4/4/2005 120:57 PM
Author: loupe

Splitting hairs is not helping. I think you know what I am talking about. With or without an emoticon.

I hope the previous post does not sound sarcastic or anything. Sometimes writing does not match intentions very well.

It may be that I do not understand the message either. If there is some tension between one camp that says "color matters and cut does not" and another saying "cut matters, forget color", well, I have not met either camp. Common sense hints at something in the middle. That post laced with emoticons was trying to elicit an expert opinion on what that middle ground might be.

Judging from a few unrelated posts, it may be easy to overestimate what I know.

 

[movie zombie]

oops, forgot about the tiny abrasions that can occur on the surface. thanks for the reminder! i''m going to guess that the source person for this stone has already taken care of that and kept the stone stored separate from others. its being shipped to me tuesday and won''t arrive until probably the end of the week. hopefully, the 10x loupe i ordered will arrive then also.

my real concern with this stone is whether it will be too large an oval at 8.18 carats. a little three mines .69 carat marquise is also arriving in the same shipment and i was told it has something that can be seen from the bottom side but not well from the top unless you know what you''re looking for.

one of the fascinations for me, and especially my husband, is what is inside the stone! imagine my surprise when he says to me after looking at diamonds that what he liked about them was seeing the inclusions! i told him he''s going to love color stones then!

the intention of this stone is to make either an e-ring or incorporate it into a wedding band. we were married december 30, 2003 with very very simple gold bands with the promise that we''d celebrate our 1st anniversary with something ''better''. we have no intention of not wearing our original bands, just want to supplement them. and now that the 1st anniversary has come and gone [got caught up with real estate matters in 2004], i''ve made it my goal to have the new rings in place for our 2nd anniversary.

thanks to everyone for their input. if i decide to keep the big stone, or the little one for that matter, i''ll post more info.

peace, movie zombie

 

[loupe]

Movie Zombie,

Maybe I missed it but what kind of gemstones are you buying? This sounds very exciting and I hope you grace this forum with pictures if possible, after the dust settles. If your oval is that big you may not need a loupe to see anything.

I am really glad to know that there are consumers of precious stones are curious to the point of magnification! I feel that an informed buyer is a happy buyer.

Have fun!

Karen



"Gold there is, and rubies in abundance, but lips that speak knowledge are a rare jewel."

 

[movie zombie]

loupe,

i may have not mentioned what type stone:

spessartite! lovely orange spessartite! 8.18 hunk a hunk a hunk a spessartite!
]
[spessartite! lovely orange spessartite! 8.18 hunk a hunk a hunk a spessartite!

also arriving with the above is a .69 carat marquise little three mine spessartite.

think i''m getting excited!!!!

i''ll definitely post more particulars once i''ve previewed it/them and make sure to post more.

just hoping it won''t be tooooooo big! i want to be able to wear it 24/7...except when gardening, of course. it would break my heart to love the 8.18 and have to send it back......

peace, movie zombie

 

[rubydick]

Date: 4/4/2005 7:50:31 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
The ideal-scope is not for colored stones because they have too low an Refreactive Index RI (below 2 - diamond is 2.4) - and have so clored stones ahve shocking windows (leakage) and rarely enough head shaodow (unless the cutter read up on Bruce Hardings theories).

In reference to refractive index, it is a common misconception that  the higher the RI, the more beautiful the gem.  Unfortunately, when it comes to colored stones, that is certainly not the case.

While a high refractive index certainly allows greater internal brilliance (more light return from inside the gem), it also creates more first-surface reflection.

So what does this mean?  It means that gems with high refractive indices have more metallic lusters and do not permit as much light to enter.

The high luster masks color. And if less light enters, then again there is less light available to contribute to a gem's color.

This goes a long way towards explaining why the color of colored diamonds and other high RI gems is generally insipid. The high RI hinders, rather than helps.

And it explains why the diamond grading model simply does not apply to the judgement of colored stones.

Which brings me back to my original post. The best thing for examination of any aesthetic object is the unaided human eye, backed up by a decent brain.

Gems are aesthetic objects. By definition, aesthetic beauty is a matter of opinion. As such, gems should be judged with a combination of eye/brain. Put away the loupes, put away the Ideal Scopes, put away the dichroscopes. And when it comes to colored stones, please throw away your diamond-grading texts. Diamonds  are from Venus, colored stones are from galaxies far far distant.

Hope that is of some help.

 

[JUNGLE JIM]

Thank you all gentlemen for the jaw-jaw about color and clarity. It all sounded to me like one big intellectual forum. I did not undrstand a thing. And I was disappointed we were not talking about diamonds. Well, am going back to the jungle. That''s where I belong.

JJ

 

[chrono]

JJ,

This sub-forum is about coloured gemstones. Colour plays a huge part in this and clarity to some extent as well. Coloured gemstones are very beautiful and learning how to pick your favourite or "best" is another whole new learning curve. It is very different from diamonds (and I think more complicated too). Do stick around here as well. I can't afford several diamonds a year but I sure can with coloured gemstones. Plus good quality gemstones have colours are are drool worthy too.

Of course we hardly get THIS technical too.

 

[movie zombie]

JJ,
i originally was lurking around pricescope because i was going to get a diamond....then i realized that i think they''re nice but for me [gasp] rather boring... and like richard hughs has stated, i found i''d opened up another can of worms that is entirely more complicated than the world of diamonds. but the same rule applies: if the stone talks to you, then its meant to be.

chrono,
i''m with you here... $5K can buy an absolutely awesome color stone but may only net one a so-so diamond.

peace, movie zombie

ps having said the above, i''ve already told hubby that if he should decide to get me a nice pair of diamond studs, i wouldn''t turn them down!

 

[valeria101]

Date: 4/5/2005 3:16:59 PM
Author: movie zombie
...
i found i'd opened up another can of worms that is entirely more complicated than the world of diamonds

Maybe, maybe not. Richard posts are very colorful

Why would color be more complicated ?

 

[movie zombie]

color i find more difficult because unlike diamonds, there are no clear %''s or numbers or industry standards to use as guides. as richard said, its all in the eye and the brain. some stones should have ''feathers'' to be worth the $$ being asked for and others shouldn''t. diamond buying can be objective as well as subjective....color stone buying seems so much more subjective.

peace, movie zombie