Unheated Ruby

[LondonRuby]

Hi everyone,

I'm very interested in rubies and wondering if I did a stupid thing when I resold a ring last year...

It was a contemporary ring in white gold or platinum. I had bought it for £500 and it's not my style, as I prefer antiques. I did some due diligence, showing it to two jewellers who both refused to buy it, even for £500. The second one explained that he could easily find such stones. I was pretty sure if wasn't a Burma ruby, so then sold it to someone else who buys from me, for exactly what I'd paid. I reasoned I wouldn't get much more at auction.

Now I see that the jeweller has listed it for almost £10K! At least, it's incredibly similar to mine. It is apparently unheated, but not a Burmese ruby, and is just over 1 carat. I am really struggling to understand how it can be worth £10K. Is it just the case of a huge markup by an antique jeweller? I'm not a retailer so I'm always happy to sell for what retailers would pay at an auction, but really feel cheated, as the shop originally offered £750, then hummed and hawed until I was exhausted and sold it for less!

Any comments/advice much appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[Mrs_Strizzle]

If they got a reputable report that states it is an untreated ruby, then yes, they definitely can sell for that price tag. I'm sorry you feel ripped off. That sucks.

 

[LondonRuby]

If they got a reputable report that states it is an untreated ruby, then yes, they definitely can sell for that price tag. I'm sorry you feel ripped off. That sucks.

Oh Gosh, thanks for letting me know. I just don't understand why the first two dealers turned it down. One is an antique dealer with decades of experience, and the other a very switched-on high-end Hatton Garden guy. That's why I assumed I'd better just sell off the ring...

Would you advise getting a report before I sell any rubies from now on?

 

[Mrs_Strizzle]

Oh Gosh, thanks for letting me know. I just don't understand why the first two dealers turned it down. One is an antique dealer with decades of experience, and the other a very switched-on high-end Hatton Garden guy. That's why I assumed I'd better just sell off the ring...

Would you advise getting a report before I sell any rubies from now on?

Absolutely. Don't buy or sell any without a good lab report. The difference in synthetic, glass filled, and unheated can't really be told by the eye, and the price varies wildly.

 

[VividRed]

If anyone buys the ruby in your picture for 10k, I would love to meet them

 

[Autumn in New England]

What I will say is this... it may look similar to the one you sold. But if you are not certain of that fact, keep in mind that even slight variations in quality (color, clarity, cut) can significantly affect price. That being said, if this is indeed your exact stone, then I think it's a combination of you underselling it and them overpricing it. In future, you'll do much better selling via an online marketplace. Avoid selling to brick and mortar shops... they want to steal everything and then their prices tend to be ridiculously exorbitant.

I'm so sorry you feel cheated... many of us have been there. I sold a big chunk of my old collection to a dealer so I could fund another project. In order to get him to take everything (rather than selling it piecemeal over who knows how many years), I had to take quite a bit less than I wanted. It happens!

 

[Bron357]

A 1 carat ruby can range between $20 and $20,000 while the unaided eye might have trouble noticing any difference.
A “from the earth” ruby without a reputable certificate is a risky proposition because some treatments are difficult to detect without more specialized equipment. That’s origin aside ie Burmese origin is almost always more expensive.
Retail stores have high overheads and stock can be slow to move. Often prices also have a bit of “fat” to allow a price negotiation to occur.
If you’re wanting to sell or buy a ruby it is prudent to have a reputable lab report.
Just as you don’t want to sell a $5,000 Ruby for $50 no one wants to pay $5,000 for a $50 Ruby.

 

[LondonRuby]

What I will say is this... it may look similar to the one you sold. But if you are not certain of that fact, keep in mind that even slight variations in quality (color, clarity, cut) can significantly affect price. That being said, if this is indeed your exact stone, then I think it's a combination of you underselling it and them overpricing it. In future, you'll do much better selling via an online marketplace. Avoid selling to brick and mortar shops... they want to steal everything and then their prices tend to be ridiculously exorbitant.

I'm so sorry you feel cheated... many of us have been there. I sold a big chunk of my old collection to a dealer so I could fund another project. In order to get him to take everything (rather than selling it piecemeal over who knows how many years), I had to take quite a bit less than I wanted. It happens!

Thanks for your message. It's definitely the same ring band (same size, and I remember the hallmarks on it) but now I'm wondering if they could have changed the ruby, as theirs looks clearer than mine (all I kept of my ring were two not very good pictures so it's difficult to tell!)

So sorry to hear you sold a chunk of your collection at a loss, it's horrible when that happens. I hope you managed to make up the loss somehow later on...

 

[LondonRuby]

A 1 carat ruby can range between $20 and $20,000 while the unaided eye might have trouble noticing any difference.
A “from the earth” ruby without a reputable certificate is a risky proposition because some treatments are difficult to detect without more specialized equipment. That’s origin aside ie Burmese origin is almost always more expensive.
Retail stores have high overheads and stock can be slow to move. Often prices also have a bit of “fat” to allow a price negotiation to occur.
If you’re wanting to sell or buy a ruby it is prudent to have a reputable lab report.
Just as you don’t want to sell a $5,000 Ruby for $50 no one wants to pay $5,000 for a $50 Ruby.

Thanks, Bron357! That is very good advice.

I have more funds available now to get lab reports so will buy carefully and do this in the future...

 

[Saphir]

Hey LondonRuby
That is damn worst scenario. I would ask an lawyer if was legal buiseness from the seller. Im live in germany and here u can not buy as a seller an item from an private person and sell it atzer that for 20x price, that was cheat. I would let check it from laywer.

 

[LondonRuby]

Hey LondonRuby
That is damn worst scenario. I would ask an lawyer if was legal buiseness from the seller. Im live in germany and here u can not buy as a seller an item from an private person and sell it atzer that for 20x price, that was cheat. I would let check it from laywer.

That's interesting! I now wonder if it was the same stone, though. Also, I don't think they will ever manage to sell it at that price, it's just not nice enough...

 

[LilAlex]

Im live in germany and here u can not buy as a seller an item from an private person and sell it atzer that for 20x price, that was cheat. I would let check it from laywer.

I'm curious: How would a law like this even work? How could you confirm that it was your "thing"?

There is nothing (even remotely) like that in the US, AFAIK.

What if I bought the contents of an abandoned storage locker -- sight unseen -- for $500 (happens all the time) and found a coin collection, etc? No intent to defraud here.

 

[Avondale]

How could you confirm that it was your "thing"?

By having proper paperwork for the sale. Which, if you’re selling to a business, they’d usually be obligated to draw up. Of course, that’s most often left at the discretion of the contracting parties. The law is there to protect you but you have to make a conscious effort to make use of that protection.

There is nothing (even remotely) like that in the US, AFAIK.

To be honest things are painfully underregulated in the US. Businesses run rampant with next to no consumer protections. In most European countries there are laws that protect the parties to any contract against defrauding each other on the value of said contract. And the Germans, being a special kind of people (in the very best sense possible), have very specific and strict laws.

What if I bought the contents of an abandoned storage locker -- sight unseen -- for $500 (happens all the time) and found a coin collection, etc?

Easy. You're not allowed to simply sell off the contents freely. In most places there are legal procedures you have to follow. When you do get to selling off the contents (usually through a judge’s permission or the help of a private enforcer), you’ll be allowed to keep what is owed to you and are obligated to return any money left to the person who hired the storage locker in the first place.

 

[LilAlex]

By having proper paperwork for the sale. Which, if you’re selling to a business, they’d usually be obligated to draw up. Of course, that’s most often left at the discretion of the contracting parties.

Everyone has a receipt. How does anyone know that it's what I'm actually selling to a private party? I get it for VIN numbers and maybe serial numbers on a few high-dollar things, but the third-party resale universe is almost unimaginably large. No one regulates that, right? You're saying nobody has garage sales in Germany or sells grandpa's old toolbox without an appraisal or original receipt? No one thrifts? There are no bargains to be had in the country? Some federal third party ensures that all transactions are fair and equitable?

(I don't think that can be true since a recent and fairly inexpensive jewelry purchase I made from a German vendor was probably 1/10th of the original purchase price.)

And if all microcommerce is regulated to this degree, then all illicit trade must be driven invisibly underground. At least in the US, it's all fenced detectably (!) on eBay, Craigslist, NextDoor and the like.

I agree that many things are painfully underregulated in the US -- and it is now getting worse by the day. But the ability to freely buy and sell "stuff" for a profit or loss is in our DNA. (If you re-sell enough to maybe make a living off of it, you are taxed on the capital gains -- but there must be 99% under-enforcement there.)

 

[Avondale]

Everyone has a receipt. How does anyone know that it's what I'm actually selling to a private party?

Because it’s a gemstone and if you’re smart you’re going to write exactly what gemstone you’re selling on the receipt. Am I the only one who insists on stone type, weight, measurement, colour and level of treatment being explicitly written even when it comes to a PayPal invoice? That basically guarantees the ability to identify the individual stone to the millimetre.

Again, it’s up to the parties to make use of the law they have available. If one doesn’t take the necessary precautions, no law will be able to help them.

Some federal third party ensures that all transactions are fair and equitable?

Having regulations doesn’t mean having some government agency overseeing every sale. It’s simply a matter of laws and courts existing, and people having access to them in order to seek protection of their rights. Which is exactly what Saphir was suggesting - depending on where OP lives, talk to a lawyer, see about your rights, and if you have a legal case, pursue it.

And if all microcommerce is regulated to this degree, then all illicit trade must be driven invisibly underground.

Depends on whether you’re talking about a business sale or a person to person sale.

If I sell a personal item, I don’t pay tax on that sale. Because I’m an individual simply selling a personal item. So there’s no illicit trade to speak of.

A business, on the other hand, has all the accounting and tax obligations you might expect for a business. The governments have plenty of tools for cracking down on tax evasion.

ETA: Fundamentally, most of these laws make sense. Don’t defraud someone and buy something from them for 1% of the actual value - it’s logical. Doing that is fraud in most people’s eyes which is why it only happens rarely. You don’t need some all powerful overseeing agency to stop people from constantly attempting to defraud and exploit each other. The point is that when someone does try to defraud someone else in a vulnerable position, the vulnerable person has legal recourse. And that’s all that’s necessary, really.

 

[LilAlex]

Because it’s a gemstone and if you’re smart you’re going to write exactly what gemstone you’re selling on the receipt. Am I the only one who insists on stone type, weight, measurement, colour and level of treatment being explicitly written even when it comes to a PayPal invoice? That basically guarantees the ability to identify the individual stone to the millimetre.

Again, it’s up to the parties to make use of the law they have available. If one doesn’t take the necessary precautions, no law will be able to help them...

I don't see how this version is any different from the US, then. You can always sue and claim you were defrauded by the buyer. Of course, it's not possible to factor in all the variables (vis-a-vis sale price) with you as an unknown seller or buyer and the urgency of the transaction and other conditions of the sale (see pawn shops).

There must be a lot of lawsuits in Germany over lab diamonds considering that they are expensive and have no re-sale value. Lots of folks claiming they were defrauded...?

 

[Avondale]

I don't see how this version is any different from the US, then.

Don’t ask me, you’re the one who said such a thing didn’t exist in the US, I can only take your word for it.

(see pawn shops).

Since you mention pawn shops, you might find it curious to know where I live pawn shops are heavily regulated. It’s a licensed business that can only operate as a pawn shop and nothing else, which also has to follow specific rules for pawn shops. There are limits on the value of items you can buy and sell freely, with further regulations existing on higher value items. The logic is pawn shops deal with vulnerable people on a daily basis and these people need to be protected.

None of this prevents pawn shops from functioning and being successful businesses, of course.

There must be a lot of lawsuits in Germany over lab diamonds considering that they are expensive and have no re-sale value. Lots of folks claiming they were defrauded...?

I very much doubt it.

To start, lab diamonds aren’t nearly as popular in Europe. Tastes here veer significantly more towards smaller gems and so there isn’t much allure in slapping a 5ct impractical rock on your finger. The vast number of Europeans aren’t tempted by the benefits lab diamonds have to offer.

Furthermore, you’re not looking at resale value, you’re judging by fair market price. If 20 jewellery shops sell the same lab diamond for 1k euro and the 21st is selling it for 20k euro, chances are no one will buy from the 21st to begin with. But in the odd case that they do, they might actually have a case.

However, if you buy a lab stone for 1k from one of the 20 shops that sell it, where’s your ground for claiming fraud? There’s no fraud, there’s only fair market value that is clearly established in the trade by a large number of competing businesses.