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Unexpected surprise means I need help finding diamond!

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by Kayelle, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. AV_
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by AV_ » Jan 11, 2019
    Digressing,

    Does anyone allow trading in for naturals? (naive Q)

    I am not old enough to know how synthetic sapphire got to where it is today - over a hundred years. I was surprised to find bags of them - interestingly faceted, most of an elegant size - hundreds having been extracted from rings made in the late 1930, up to the war; much to be said about that scrap...
     
  2. Kayelle
    Rough_Rock

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    by Kayelle » Jan 11, 2019
    Some great responses, thank you :)

    The price of the LG I linked the cert to above is $2349. They do have an upgrade policy where you get full credit on the cost of the diamond towards an upgrade.

    As an example, just checked WF and found a 0.912 H VS2 round Ideal for $6217. I just can’t go past that sort of different in price, especially with our exchange rate factored in afterwards!

    I wasn’t aware the resale value was so poor, so thanks for pointing it out. Something to consider!

    Just wanted an opinion on that option and do appreciate your responses. Still haven’t decided to go down the LG route yet (only really just discovered then, although I have purchased some pieces from that company before for my sisters birthday). If I do I will make another thread in the lab grown area :)

    Argh these decisions are hard when it’s such a lot of money (for us) but relatively small budget compared to others!
     
  3. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Jan 11, 2019
    Regardless of your budget size -- every dollar is equally important. I understand you need to do what is best for you, and that is ultimately what I encourage.

    Earlier in post #15, I linked 3 potential stones all within the $2,200 range. Size was around 0.75ct and measured between 5.80-5.90mm in diameter. One of them is gone now, but the two remaining are I color VVS1 clarity.

    FYI, I wasn't seeking that high of clarity, but was just what popped as available. As inventory changes it may be possible to lower clarity to VS2 and bump color and maybe size a smidge for the same dollars. Just that particular combination of options wasn't available when I searched or I would have posted it.

    Looking back at the LG stone you posted, I see it's a 0.90ct H VS2 and measures slightly bigger at 6.20mm diameter. While I am not familiar with Diamond Foundry, if indeed they are a trusted and reliable lab then the diamond proportions look quite lovely:

    57 table, 61.7 depth, 34.5 crown & 40.8 pavilion
    LGF's are not reported
    Medium girdle
    No fluor

    https://certificate.diamondfoundry.com/download/201865.pdf

    I personally love that 34.5/40.8 combo myself. Many here feel the same way, and it's easy to see why as evidenced below. Of course, the quality of the cut and symmetry plays into it as well. I saw no pictures, video or additional data to help make an educated decision about the LG stone.

    While flying a little blind, the LG stone looks promising to be well cut.

    Capture2.PNG
     
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  4. Kayelle
    Rough_Rock

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    by Kayelle » Jan 11, 2019
    Sledge - I’ve been having a look in more detail at the diamonds on the FourMine site. Are you able to give an indication why these diamonds seem much cheaper than, say, WhiteFlash?
     
  5. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Jan 11, 2019
    Earlier today, I explained similar differences to someone else in a different thread. Below is a copy of the post I wrote and I think applies here.

    WF ACA's are cream of the crop in cut quality, symmetry and customer service. Unfortunately all those things cost a premium. So I am trying to find you a diamond that will perform very similar, if not identical, but within your budget constraints.

    As a friend used to say, "delivering champagne tastes on a beer budget".

    That said, here is one ACA that may do the trick. J color and slightly smaller but wowsas, look at the pretty disco ball you could plant on your finger. :love:

    0.704ct J VS2 @ $2,355 wire
    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4063423.htm

    Hands down, this would be my choice. It will allow you to meet your immediate needs, plus give you access to one of the best upgrade programs around. Literally spend $1 more and get full credit of the original stone towards your new stone. No restrictions, etc. Makes getting to 1 carat, better color, etc much easier.

    More so, this is a guaranteed performer. Not only does it have great proportions, but all those images confirm it's awesome. A true hearts & arrow (H&A) stone.

    Here was the post I was talking about. The FourMine stones would fall into the GIA 3x (w/ ideal proportions) category.

     
  6. Crystal_Dreams
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by Crystal_Dreams » Jan 11, 2019
    I’m not sure whether you are considering the preowned BGD stone, but it’s a good option. IMHO I think the seller has priced it a touch high (I just sold my BGD studs recently- maybe I priced mine too low?), but as she’s open to offers, I would consider asking. My set price on the studs was firm, and I was aware that I was going to take a loss on selling diamonds preloved- even super ideal ones.

    Then there’s no import tax to worry about at all.

    FWIW, I would also certainly talk to BGD about the upgrade policy. I may be a one off situation here, but as a pre-existing BGD customer, I did ask about upgrading a preloved stone I had bought. They were generous and informed me they would, BUT only at the purchase price that I had bought it preloved for and needed to show them a receipt to that end. I would strongly encourage you to talk to Lesley about this and see whether it would be an option for you. I love BGD’s stones and customer service.

    I’m a fellow Aussie and I agree- our dollar is terrible right now!! So I would either go with the BGD stone if she will accept an offer, or think about IDJ (who work miracles for lower budgets) :)

    And congratulation!!
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
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  7. Kayelle
    Rough_Rock

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    by Kayelle » Jan 11, 2019
    So I decided to go and check out some jewellery stores today, just to compare pricing, size my finger and see how they look actually ‘on’.

    One of the stores I went to has quoted me $20,300AUD (about $14.6kUSD) for a pave setting and 1.0ct E VS2 round :shock: :shock:. Interesting to see the prices out there. They are based in one of our big shopping centres here. Another store I visited some months ago (also has a website) has quoted $14,500 AUD for similar.
     
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  8. Kayelle
    Rough_Rock

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    by Kayelle » Jan 11, 2019
    Thanks :)

    As stunning as that BGD stone is, $8k just for the stone is out of my budget, as especially I would then obviously have to pay for the setting. It’s getting up to almost double my budget.
     
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  9. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Jan 12, 2019
    I hope you consider that WF ACA 0.704ct stone I posted earlier. It's $2,300 and let's you get into a super ideal stone with access to grow and upgrade as time and money allows. While enjoying a truly beautiful stone. I know it's a little less carat weight than you were hoping to get, but it's not a massive difference compared to the beauty you are going to get in return.
     
  10. Kayelle
    Rough_Rock

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    by Kayelle » Jan 12, 2019
    I ended up finding this document on the Diamond Foundry website... it seems to have the exact same characteristics as the one I linked from Vrai and Oro so I’m assuming it’s the same. http://images.gemfacts.com/GCALimages/Certs/201865.pdf

    I don’t even know what have that information means! This is a big learning curve.

    Definitely considering that stone and have been looking at setting last from WhiteFlash too!
     
  11. Lykame
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by Lykame » Jan 12, 2019
    If you're genuinely thinking about that stone (please please!) then please put it on hold. There are often lurkers on here who see good recommendations and the stone promptly disappears. o_O
     
  12. rockysalamander
    Ideal_Rock

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    by rockysalamander » Jan 12, 2019
    GCAL is basically useless. It does not help you.

    You asked up-thread why natural and lab-grown are so different in price. The simple answer is that all lab grown gemstones are significantly less expensive that natural (earth-mined). There is a cachet and desirability with the natural stone and, in many natural stone, the natural flaws are part of the charm. In the colored gemstone word, only cultured pearls which are caused by force-feeding an irritant to a freshwater mussel or saltwater clam, are accepted as equal to a truly natural pearl (which are near impossible to find). You can find more expensive lab-grown in the colored stone world, but that is likely due to the quality of the cut. But, its really no different than a brand set of shoes that are $300 and the knock-off version that is $50. The "real thing" is desirable to some.

    It was not always so stark. Up until about 6 months ago, lab-grown diamonds where consistently 20% less than natural. But, DeBeers introduced a lab-grown option as a much lower prices, specifically, to devalue the lab grown market and save their natural market. Lab grown are expensive because they are really expensive to make. They are technology, resource and energy intensive to grow. Then, they still have to be cut, polished and marketed. The prices you are seeing are markets response to DeBeers. But, I think that expectations and introduction of a "green" ethic may be driving the market for lab grown to remain. Folks have a lot of negative associations with diamonds, from the famed Blood Diamond, movie. People also see lab grown as more "environmental" than the natural ones (not true, but its the story people say).
     
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  13. rockysalamander
    Ideal_Rock

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    by rockysalamander » Jan 12, 2019
    I don't know many vendors that will allow an upgrade of a lab stone, but more offer some options for naturals. Not trade-in, but more upgrade. A few CS vendors will buy-back a unique or valuable stone, though at a loss to the seller.
     
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  14. Crystal_Dreams
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by Crystal_Dreams » Jan 12, 2019
    WF also does gorgeous stones.

    I would suggest if you could wait a little... BGD often does some kind of a Valentine’s Day special- keep an eye out. Also maybe email them to see if there are any BGD Blue stones (which come a little cheaper) in the works which are within your requirements.
     
  15. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Jan 12, 2019

    https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/valentines-day-diamond-jewelry/

    Capture.PNG
     
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  16. Lovesparklesparle
    Shiny_Rock

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    by Lovesparklesparle » Jan 13, 2019
    Wrong if you are buying a set diamond unfortunately. Loose diaminds are exempt from the extra 5% tax from USA to Australia under the free trade agreement, and all are subject to 10% gst. So it’s 15% for a ring. You could have it sent unnounted to avoid the extra 5% but then you must pay to have it done here anyway, and you won’t be covered by the USA vendors warranty, so unlikely worth it. Customs clearance fees, brokerage and insurance all need to be considered also. These fees are non refundable (and super expensive to peruse a reimbursement IF you are even eligible, a change of mind will mean you’ll lose this money) so for this price point you pretty much NEED to be certain of the stone you get, as a do over will blow a large chunk of your budget.

    Having said that I still think you’ll have better luck buying from the USA than in Australia in terms of retail prices (australia is ridiculous!). If you buy preloved from the USA I suppose you could avoid all the taxes by underdeclaring the value of the ring, but then it’s not insured for the correct amount of something goes wrong, and it’s not the right thing to do etc etc
     
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  17. rockysalamander
    Ideal_Rock

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  18. Crystal_Dreams
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by Crystal_Dreams » Jan 13, 2019
    Actually, from memory (I haven’t done this in awhile), you are exempt from DUTY for jewellery that has been made in the US of components sourced in the US. This is the 5% part. IF you lodge all the paperwork for the AUSFTA, which fedex and customs often don’t look at and try to charge you for anyway. Plus brokerage fees.

    Regardless of whether it’s under the AUSFTA or not, you STILL have to pay 10% GST on all items coming in.

    So it’s basically either 10% GST or 15% (GST + duty). Loose diamonds don’t get charged the 5%, but if you put in the right paperwork AND chase fedex closely plus speak to the customs broker when they contact you, you can sort out the AUSFTA thing for a completed ring.

    Typically, this involves no less than 10 phone calls in my experience (they often don’t answer the phone), and emailing them an electronic copy of the AUSFTA once you get through to someone who is actually helpful. The vast majority of the people you’ll speak to are NOT.

    The super ideals are costly. If trying to maximise what you can get, I would strongly suggest contacting Yekutiel from ID jewelery for help. Their website isn’t the most inspiring, but they are REALLY helpful in maximising stats within a set budget. I helped source a stone for my brother through them and they did far better than we expected for the budget!! We were open to fluoro which helped, and they inspected the stone for us and gave an honest opinion about the different options.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
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  19. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Jan 13, 2019
    That makes about as much sense as the state I live in. When filing taxes, if Year 1 you have a state refund then in Year 2 you have to claim that refund as state income and get taxed on it a second time.

    It's the most asinine thing I've heard. Literally you are getting double taxed.

    It's had little impact to me the past couple of years. I intentionally adjust my tax witholdings so that I get as close to $0 as possible on a tax refund. Doing it this way I normally get a small federal refund that offsets the money I typically owe the state. Sometimes I end up with a few hundred bucks in my pocket. Other times I've written a check for a few hundred difference. I'm okay with this though, as I don't believe in financing government operations for 0% interest. They want to use my money, great, but I need to be making interest on it. Pretty sure they hate people like me. :lol:

    Anyhow, it seems logical that Australia has some sort of a process that allows you to do returns without double taxation. A few months back a Canadian buyer expressed there was a refund process but it was complex and frustrating so many just skipped it. In their case, the purchase was large enough to justify the headache should there be an issue. Also, I think if vendors utilize special labels, etc it may avoid some of the fees (in a refund situation).
     
  20. Lovesparklesparle
    Shiny_Rock

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    by Lovesparklesparle » Jan 13, 2019

    If you go with Fedex they will not overlook these fees, so with any carrier I wouldn’t count on it! Apologies I just looked at my invoice from when I purchased loose from LAD and she filed all the correct paperwork for AUSTFA and I was NOT charged duty by Fedex for the loose stone. However, I bought a mounted diamond from the USA from an eBay store and the and I WAS charged the duty despite it originating in the USA, so I wore these fees despite returning the ring. I believe the exemption only applies to loose, unmounted stones and jewellery (once it’s a finished product it attracts the tax?) I was considering having the stone I mounted and sent to me, but that would have voided the return so thankfully I didn’t. I was so sure this was the one for me!! So the lesson here would be buy from a reliable vendor and be prepared to loose if you take a risk.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  21. Crystal_Dreams
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by Crystal_Dreams » Jan 13, 2019
    No... I’ve definately had ‘completed’ items sent to me before from the US, which have come in under the AUSFTA and been exempt from 5% duty. You just have to apply for it (before you pay). neither fedex nor the customs brokers they pass the items to to assess it will go out of their way to help you through the claim or find the paperwork.

    I’ve done this multiple times through vendors experienced with filing this paperwork (CVB, BGD, IDJ). Despite them putting the paperwork in the Fedex document pouch on the parcel, the customs brokers VERY RARELY/NEVER look at it. But when they call to tell you how much you have to pay, check with them re: whether the total amount includes 5% duty. If it does, I inform them that the parcel is actually coming in under the AUSFTA and all the paperwork is with the parcel. Despite this, they never seem to find it, so I always additionally ask them for an email address I can send the declaration over to. Once they get the AUSFTA paperwork from me, they call me back (or not and I have to call them about 10x) To get the revised (lower) amount I have to pay. I pay over the phone, and they release my package from customs :mrgreen2:

    Lovesparklesparle, I think you didn’t get charged 5% duty with your LAD shipment as they don’t charge duty on loose stones in general... completed items need the AUSFTA paperwork to be exempt, but unfortunately, it’s is never as simple as the sellers including it in the documents on their end. The issue in my experience, has always been to do with general incompetence and unwillingness to LOOK at the AUSFTA paperwork unless specifically prompted and helped along by the buyer. Your eBay vendor might’ve put it in, but unless you follow them up on it, they won’t take it into account.

    ETA:
    I just pulled out all of my Fedex invoices from the last few years and can confirm that all of them have NO customs duty charges as I have always filed for the AUSFTA on arrival (they are all completed pieces).

    The breakdown is as follows:
    Customs duty: $0 (under the AUSFTA) or 5%
    Import air charge for goods valued under $10,000: $50
    GST: 10%
    Entry Charges: $33

    So $50 + $33 = $83 are the standard charges for a package coming in. GST is 10% the cost of your parcel, and Duty is 5% unless you make sure they take into account the AUSFTA. Hope that helps!
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
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  22. Lovesparklesparle
    Shiny_Rock

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    by Lovesparklesparle » Jan 13, 2019
    Well didn’t I get stitched up then lol!

    Customs and Fedex both told me that the eBay seller had to submit the exemption paperwork in order for it to be valid in the USA. I could not complete it, it had to be them. The seller had agreed they would complete the correct forms before shipment, but then ignored my request once my item was a customs and they needed it resubmitted. Infuriating.

    The only thing I could do was apply for the refund here, which for my relatively low value item was not worth it, as it was around the same cost to lodge as it was for the duty. So I gave up on it all lol

    Minefield for the unprepared. When buying abroad, stick to the recommended vendors to be safe.
     
  23. Dandi
    Ideal_Rock

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    by Dandi » Jan 13, 2019
    Oh Lovesparklesparkle that's a shame. I've purchased several finished pieces (including rings) from the US and have never paid duty, just GST.
     
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  24. Kayelle
    Rough_Rock

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    by Kayelle » Jan 14, 2019
    Thanks for those posts!! So do I need to submit the paperwork or does the seller do that? I’ve looked on the DFAT website but struggled to find the paperwork.
     
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  25. Crystal_Dreams
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by Crystal_Dreams » Jan 14, 2019
    not sure if this fits the bill, but saw it and thought of you! It is an OEC rather than an MRB!! I would wonder whether the seller could send it back to Caysie to resize/polish to look like new before asking Caysie to forward it over. Caysie is an absolute doll and would be able to do the paperwork whereas a private seller probably can’t.

    https://loupetroop.com/listings/rings-natural-diamond-center/0-dot-68-carat-oec-est-h-vs-from-cvb


    Re: AUSFTA paperwork, the seller must provide it. However, I have found it most useful when they send you an electronic copy in addition to putting into the Fedex document pouch so that when customs assess it (and no doubt don’t bother to look at the AUSFTA stuff), you can firstly redirect them to said document and secondly when they insist they don’t have it, email it to them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
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  26. Lovesparklesparle
    Shiny_Rock

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    by Lovesparklesparle » Jan 14, 2019
    Are you interested in a oec? I’ve still not advertised my 1ct J Si2...I’ve been happy to hoard so far but I really should make moves.

    Places like Bluenile, Whiteflash, LAD, JBG, OWD, GOG etc can be trusted with the paperwork as they do it every day. The private seller, well if they send the item without the paperwork, you either reject the package and wear the costs so far, have them resend it and pay again, or accept it and wear the costs plus duty. Bit of a thread jack but importing and returning goods can be mind boggling task trolling through all the legislation etc.

    Anyway, paying the 5% wouldn’t be ideal but if you find the stone you want, it’s totally worth doing.
     
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