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Uncertified diamonds in Hatton Garden

Katlo

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
25
Hi Everyone,

Please help! I am wondering if you might be able to lend me your thoughts. I have been lusting over a diamond halo pendant at what I believe is a good price, however I am a novice to diamond buying. They have various carat sizes and clarities available in the necklace.

I went back today to view the pendants again and just as I was leaving, I spotted an identical pendant (slightly larger) in the window and asked the price. The sales person explained that that particular pendant would be much more expensive because it was certified. I then asked if the pendants I was just looking at were certified and they said no! Do reputable jewellers really sell diamonds that are un certified? I was under the impression that all jewellers in Hatton Garden would be reputable and sell certified diamonds only. The different pendants I looked at ranged from VS-SI and various carat weights and colours. They all looked lovely to me but how can I be sure one particular pendant is a VS diamond without a GIA certificate to prove it? Id solely be going by the jewellers word and insurance valuation.

What do you think?
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
2,175
Do reputable jewellers really sell diamonds that are un certified?
-Yes. Tiffany is a great example, although their internal grading lab is considered very reliable. De Beers sell diamonds under 1.0c that are not graded by a third party lab. Many Pricescope vendors sell diamonds that are not graded by a third party lab. There is nothing wrong with it.

They all looked lovely to me but how can I be sure one particular pendant is a VS diamond without a GIA certificate to prove it?
-You cannot be sure. That's why a grading report from a reputable third party lab is important. You can take the pendant to an apparaiser. But for the most accurate appraisal, the stone needs to be examined unmounted.
 

mrfat

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 15, 2015
Messages
19
If the diamond is well cut and of good quality then why wouldn't they have it appraised at an accredited lab? It will significantly increase the value of the diamond so it makes no sense why the cutter or distributor would lose all that money. How is that a GIA or AGS certified diamond can sell for double what the ungraded diamond or diamond evaluated by a 'GIA gemologist' goes for?
 

Katlo

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
25
Mrfat,


That's what I thought. The pendant in questions I apparently made by them. When they said they could have it certified, I asked if it would be at any extra cost to me and they said no. So if its at no extra cost, why wouldn't they have them all certified in the first place? Alternatively he said he could remove the diamond and replace with a certified one.

It just doesn't make sense to me! But I love the necklace and the light return to me seems wonderful however I wouldn't want to assume I am getting a bargain when in reality it isn't worth as much as I'd pay. I'm thinking about purchasing through James Allen, although pricier, I know they are certified.
 

Katlo

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
25
Mrfat,


That's what I thought. The pendant in question is apparently made by them. When they said they could have it certified, I asked if it would be at any extra cost to me and they said no. So if its at no extra cost, why wouldn't they have them all certified in the first place? Alternatively he said he could remove the diamond and replace with a certified one.

It just doesn't make sense to me! But I love the necklace and the light return to me seems wonderful however I wouldn't want to assume I am getting a bargain when in reality it isn't worth as much as I'd pay. I'm thinking about purchasing through James Allen, although pricier, I know they are certified.
 

partgypsy

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Messages
6,350
Katlo|1482320857|4108745 said:
Mrfat,


That's what I thought. The pendant in questions I apparently made by them. When they said they could have it certified, I asked if it would be at any extra cost to me and they said no. So if its at no extra cost, why wouldn't they have them all certified in the first place? Alternatively he said he could remove the diamond and replace with a certified one.

It just doesn't make sense to me! But I love the necklace and the light return to me seems wonderful however I wouldn't want to assume I am getting a bargain when in reality it isn't worth as much as I'd pay. I'm thinking about purchasing through James Allen, although pricier, I know they are certified.
For the diamond pendant, if they say it is no extra cost, why don't you have them independently certify/get a grading report on the center diamond? Then you will get the pendant you like at a cost you like, with the peace of mind of a grading report? I'm sure they cannot make you purchase/keep the diamond if it is not as described (differs from the certificate).
 

ChristineRose

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
926
Since they make these pendants, they probably don't think of it the same way we do.

If you will only buy it with a certificate, they will get you one and eat the cost. But if they can sell it uncertified, they might as well. Also, unless it's a GIA or AGS or one of the handful of decent smaller labs, it's just a piece of paper and they might even be printing them up in the back room...

Artists pick stones to use based on a bunch of things that the PS crowd probably wouldn't consider to be top priority, including price and a good size to price ratio (big but dull).

When they tell you a certified stone is more expensive, that's not really true. The cost of certificates (including a hassle cost) is pretty low. What's they really mean is that the stones are lower quality. But if you are judging something as a complete work of art, then it may not matter.
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
2,175
Katlo|1482320906|4108746 said:
Mrfat,


That's what I thought. The pendant in question is apparently made by them. When they said they could have it certified, I asked if it would be at any extra cost to me and they said no. So if its at no extra cost, why wouldn't they have them all certified in the first place? Alternatively he said he could remove the diamond and replace with a certified one.

It just doesn't make sense to me! But I love the necklace and the light return to me seems wonderful however I wouldn't want to assume I am getting a bargain when in reality it isn't worth as much as I'd pay. I'm thinking about purchasing through James Allen, although pricier, I know they are certified.
There could be many reasons why vendors don't send some stones for grading: fee, cost, branding issue, etc..

Say, you are a jeweler and have a good looking stone that is potentially GIA J/K SI1.
Now, you have two options. One is to send to GIA and have it graded J/K SI1. Two is just sell it as I VS2 with an appraisal paper.
I bet uncertified I VS2 is a faster mover.

In short, a diamond grade report can be a good marketing tool for vendors. However, sometimes, it may also reveals a bit too much information and flaws that vendors don't want their customers to know.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
28,174
Buyer beware.

I can cherry pick two diamonds of the same size and cut that look identical to the public, but one is worth $10,000 and the other $40,000.
How? Why?
Color and clarity grades have a huge effect on price, but sometimes not on appearance.
GIA graded one D IF and the other I SI2.
That's how little you should be trusting your eyes and the claims of a diamond vendor.

If you don't want to overpay, only consider diamonds that were graded by a reputable independent lab like GIA or AGS.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
8,175
Many good points have been raised.
The term "certified" is misleading.
The best lab reports are just that, a report identifying a diamond.
Nothing on the report is "certified"- the term implies some sort of government oversight.
Over many years, GIA and AGSL have earned reputations as labs that issue accurate reports.
EGL has a terrible reputation for the same reason.

A diamond is not made inherently more expensive due to having a report. But educated buyers of diamonds that are expensive to begin with won;t accpet any report other than GIA or AGSL for the reason presented by Kenny, for example.
In many cases consumers that are being told what you have been are presented with a "certificate" that's not really worth the paper it's printed on.

Although there's surely some reputable sellers in Hatton Gardens, there are definitely others with lesser reputations located there- just having the address does not indicate reliability.
 

Katlo

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
25
Thank you all, and thanks Kenny for the simplified way of looking at things. I am a complete novice.

The jeweller said he would put a certified stone into the pendant if I wanted but I still feel something isn't right.

I think ill steer clear!
 
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