"Ultimate Diamonds" (Passion Flower & Excalibur Cut)

[GemView]

Hello,

I joined roughly two years ago shortly after I embarked on a quest to learn how to select a diamond I could love for a lifetime. I ended up with a certified 1.06-carat diamond, ideal cut, which I continue to love. (Many thanks again to the PriceScope community, and to the invaluable Holloway Cut Adviser in particular.)

What brings me back today is a curiosity question regarding whether anyone has purchased or viewed a type of square- and round-cut diamond that I ran across recently. The Web site Krikawa.com mentions these patented cuts specifically:

THE PASSION FLOWER®: The Ultimate Round Diamond®
THE EXCALIBUR®: The Ultimate Square Diamond®

Photos and diagrams are available at: http://www.krikawa.com/info/diamond-info.htm.

On a related note, has anyone heard of this jewelry designer? Apparently Lisa Krikawa has won several design awards, and her "White Mokume Wedding Band" was selected for use in the movie "Firewall" starring Harrison Ford and Virginia Madsen. My impression is that she will be a designer to watch in the coming years.

I am no longer in the market for an engagement ring diamond, but as a lifelong jewelry admirer I occasionally peruse Internet jewelry sites and this was my latest find.

Any thoughts?

 

[strmrdr]

both are decade old gemstone cuts that shouldnt be cut in diamond.
They are designed for the lower RI of other gemstones.

 

[gladyskristen]

Mmm... Not my cup of tea, at least when diamonds are concerned. I'd imagine it looking pretty messy unless the diamond is as big as the picture. Lol.

 

[gladyskristen]

...

 

[neatfreak]

They don''t do it for me. But to each their own!

 

[strmrdr]

Im waiting for someone to come out with a patented checkerboard top diamond cut
ROFL!

 

[snlee]

Date: 6/16/2007 4:51:12 PM
Author: neatfreak
They don''t do it for me. But to each their own!

Ditto.

 

[GemView]

Good afternoon strmrdr,

I recall your username from a year or two back, but I do not believe we''ve "met" as it were. Are you a diamond enthusiast or collector, or someone who works in the trade?

If I understand you correctly, these are colored gemstone cuts — cuts that are designed to play up stones that don''t have a high refractive index?

Assuming these cuts improve the look of colored gemstones that don''t have a high RI to begin with, what do they do for diamonds? Is it just that the cut is proprietary or hard to come by that is a drawback, or that the cut is unflattering to a diamond (not to be confused with being unflattering merely because it is non-traditional)? Generally speaking, ideal cut diamonds have smaller tables than found in your average non-ideal cuts, so theoretically wouldn’t it be possible to remove the table altogether — as these cuts seemingly do — and still end up with an attractive diamond? In other words, are we talking about an apples vs. oranges observation in which case whatever one prefers is perfectly okay — or would you put the Passion Flower and/or Excalibur cuts more on par with an apple vs. moldy slice of bread? (Okay, odd example but you get my drift, LOL.)

Personally, I love my traditional round diamond and would never trade it in for one of these cuts. For the sake of discussion, however, it sure would be interesting to hear from someone who owns one or has compared the two side by side in the real world, however! Consequently, I’d also love to see more photos if anyone has any!

Thanks for the reply!

 

[pricescope]

Date: 6/16/2007 4:58:02 PM
Author: strmrdr
Im waiting for someone to come out with a patented checkerboard top diamond cut
ROFL!

duh

 

[GemView]

Hi gladyskristen,

Thanks for adding the photos. Yes, I imagine that if the cut wasn''t done just perfectly it would be easy to mess up.

 

[jstarfireb]

I kinda like the Excalibur because it reminds me a little of a Flanders. I''m not really loving the Passion Flower, though. I can imagine them being good for colored gemstones as strmrdr mentioned.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/16/2007 5:05:47 PM
Author: Pricescope

Date: 6/16/2007 4:58:02 PM
Author: strmrdr
Im waiting for someone to come out with a patented checkerboard top diamond cut
ROFL!

duh

lol is it patented? they are getting patents for every other old idea... lol

 

[GemView]

Thanks for weighing in, snlee.

One drawback of these alternative round and square cuts would be the seeming loss of the distinctive hearts & arrows pattern/appearance. (I love your ring photo by the way.)

But yes, to each his or her own! Old mine cuts, for example, still have a following of sorts. And while Mrs. Krikawa offers the Passion Flower and Excalibur cuts on her Web site, I also noticed that most of her photos contain traditional cuts. You know artists though… innovation is their bread & butter!

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/16/2007 5:03:38 PM
Author: GemView
Good afternoon strmrdr,

I recall your username from a year or two back, but I do not believe we''ve ''met'' as it were. Are you a diamond enthusiast or collector, or someone who works in the trade?

If I understand you correctly, these are colored gemstone cuts — cuts that are designed to play up stones that don''t have a high refractive index?

Assuming these cuts improve the look of colored gemstones that don''t have a high RI to begin with, what do they do for diamonds? Is it just that the cut is proprietary or hard to come by that is a drawback, or that the cut is unflattering to a diamond (not to be confused with being unflattering merely because it is non-traditional)? Generally speaking, ideal cut diamonds have smaller tables than found in your average non-ideal cuts, so theoretically wouldn’t it be possible to remove the table altogether — as these cuts seemingly do — and still end up with an attractive diamond? In other words, are we talking about an apples vs. oranges observation in which case whatever one prefers is perfectly okay — or would you put the Passion Flower and/or Excalibur cuts more on par with an apple vs. moldy slice of bread? (Okay, odd example but you get my drift, LOL.)

Personally, I love my traditional round diamond and would never trade it in for one of these cuts. For the sake of discussion, however, it sure would be interesting to hear from someone who owns one or has compared the two side by side in the real world, however! Consequently, I’d also love to see more photos if anyone has any!

Thanks for the reply!

diamond/gemstone enthusiast who started out learning about cut from a gemstone cutter.
Yes they are old gemstone cuts from at least the 50s if not earlier.
A lot of companies have been cutting these old designs in diamond then applying for patents on them, the patents wont stand up to any challenge.
Even with the angles adapted for diamonds I doubt they would be that great.
A fancy crown and a simple pavilion is used to create sparkle in low RI stones where the RI of diamonds is mostly used too do that.
The light gets bounced around a lot in these designs picking up color just what you dont want for high colored diamonds.
A lot of the sparkle comes from surface reflections they are not designed for in and out light return like a proper diamond cut should be.

 

[kcoursolle]

I tend to like traditional cuts over proprietary cuts. They are broader and more beautiful sparkles and have been done so many times they have it down better.

 

[GemView]

Hi strmrdr,

Thanks for introducing yourself! (The pendant picture you posted is scary, by the way.)

Your explanation makes a lot of sense. And, yes my immediate thought was how someone could patent these cuts if they''ve been around so long (in the public domain as it were). Checkerboard cuts, for example, aren''t patented to my knowledge. Consequently, it would seem there would have to be something new/different about these cuts to qualify for a patent. I''m no expert at this but perhaps a cut patent might work something like a US brand-name prescription, of which a generic drug generally becomes available after a brand name drug patent expires (after a maximum of 15 years worth of renewals, if memory serves).

So the problem, if I understand correctly, is that these particular patented cuts throw off the delicate balance between brilliance, fire and scintillation. So what one gains in fire one loses in light return — that is light that might otherwise enter through the table on a traditional cut — which in turn reduces color perception (the bright whiteness of a colorless stone or the natural color of a rare fancy stone). That being said, however, the Passion Flower (round) and Excalibur (square) cut may appeal to someone who wishes to maximize fire/scintillation providing they do not mind losing some of the brilliance to achieve this goal. Okay… I think I get it!

 

[strmrdr]

If your interested go here and download DataVue2 then snag the update.
Just copy the update files into the DataVue2 directory.
There are almost 700 designs just for rounds.
You will find several old designs that have been copied and patented in recent years.
That is only 3000 of more than 150000(est.) designs thought to exist already.
http://www.gemcutter.com/dv_prg.htm

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 6/16/2007 4:58:02 PM
Author: strmrdr
Im waiting for someone to come out with a patented checkerboard top diamond cut

ROFL!

Back when I was doing bench work, I had a customer summon me out of the shop to complain about a stone that I had set. This was not a common scenario so I came out along with the showroom manager to see what was the trouble. She was quite upset. The ring didn’t look at all like she expected and she had chosen the stone (purchased elsewhere) with great deal of effort for a particular astrological affect that she wanted. It turns out that she wanted it set with the culet side up! It had never occurred to me or the sales person to ask this particular question so I suppose she was right, I had not done what was required. Fortunately for me, it was not a difficult stone to remove and reset the ‘correct’ way and all was well in the end.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[kcoursolle]

Date: 6/16/2007 7:18:10 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 6/16/2007 4:58:02 PM
Author: strmrdr
Im waiting for someone to come out with a patented checkerboard top diamond cut

ROFL!

Back when I was doing bench work, I had a customer summon me out of the shop to complain about a stone that I had set. This was not a common scenario so I came out along with the showroom manager to see what was the trouble. She was quite upset. The ring didn’t look at all like she expected and she had chosen the stone (purchased elsewhere) with great deal of effort for a particular astrological affect that she wanted. It turns out that she wanted it set with the culet side up! It had never occurred to me or the sales person to ask this particular question so I suppose she was right, I had not done what was required. Fortunately for me, it was not a difficult stone to remove and reset the ‘correct’ way and all was well in the end.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

What an interesting story! I''d be worried about scratching people with it set like that. Pavilions are a pretty part of the diamond though and in general I like settings where it shows the pavillion...I wouldn''t want to miss out on the entire top side though LOL.

 

[snlee]

GemView, thanks! Glad you like my avatar!

Neil, what an interesting story! How odd. The thought of having a diamond set with the cutlet side up has never crossed my mind! I've never seen it set like that before. Any chance you took a picture of her ring? That would be interesting to see.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 6/16/2007 8:25:53 PM
Author: snlee
Any chance you took a picture of her ring? That would be interesting to see.

No, this was way before it was fast and easy to take pictures of everything. Actually, it''s still pretty difficult to get good pictures and most jewelers don''t go through the trouble of doing it unless it''s something they''re selling.

Rose cuts, which don''t have a central table facet, used to be fairly common, especially in smaller stones. It gives a certain antique look to the piece and setting a Euro upside down does a decent job of creating the look. With a modern brilliant set this way it creates something of a ''pyramid'' sort of look although I''ve only had the one customer request it. I''m told that gang-bangers will occasionally do this because they can then use the culet to scratch graffiti on windows and similar vandalism. I''m pretty sure my customer was looking for the former and had no criminal intentions with her new ring.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[widget]

Author: snlee

The thought of having a diamond set with the cutlet side up has never crossed my mind! I've never seen it set like that before. Any chance you took a picture of her ring? That would be interesting to see.

Here's a picture of a little teeny one...on the stem of my watch!

"I'm told that gang-bangers will occasionally do this because they can then use the culet to scratch graffiti on windows and similar vandalism."

Now there's an idea! A use for my watch other than telling time!

widget

 

[GemView]

Date: 6/16/2007 6:57:12 PM
Author: strmrdr
If your interested go here and download DataVue2 then snag the update.

Just copy the update files into the DataVue2 directory.

There are almost 700 designs just for rounds.

You will find several old designs that have been copied and patented in recent years.

That is only 3000 of more than 150000(est.) designs thought to exist already.

http://www.gemcutter.com/dv_prg.htm

Thanks! Will do!

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/17/2007 5:06:23 PM
Author: GemView

Date: 6/16/2007 6:57:12 PM
Author: strmrdr
If your interested go here and download DataVue2 then snag the update.

Just copy the update files into the DataVue2 directory.

There are almost 700 designs just for rounds.

You will find several old designs that have been copied and patented in recent years.

That is only 3000 of more than 150000(est.) designs thought to exist already.

http://www.gemcutter.com/dv_prg.htm

Thanks! Will do!

If that isnt enough for ya then google "gemstone cutting diagrams" and you will find several thousand more.

another kicken link..
http://www.faceters.com/beginners.shtml