U.S. School cancels prom over ''lesbian date''

[HVVS]

I hope they rethink this, too. I'll bet lots of parents and young women who've already purchased their prom attire are spitting furious. Why are they bring deprived? Will the school system financially reimburse them? I personally would be outraged by a prom being canceled for the entire student body for a trivial reason like a same-sex couple might attend.

And "In a statement issued on Wednesday, the board said it hoped that "private citizens will organise an event for the juniors and seniors" instead. " -- Strikes me as just a little arrogant. What is this, expenditure reduction in disguise??? Then it becomes the private citizens' duty forever after?

 

[ksinger]

Date: 3/14/2010 10:57:24 AM
Author: DearBuddha
I was furious when I saw this on MSNBC. I''m a teacher, and actions like this would never fly at a school here in Boston. In fact, two girls went together to a prom I attended in high school and no one thought anything odd about it.

The admins were wrong to cancel prom simply because a lesbian student requested something they deem wrong; it only reinforces the perception that gays and lesbians should be apart from our own society, and therefore deserve to be treated differently and negatively. I have several gay members of my family and the idea of someone treating them differently to make a point infuriates me

Who can we complain to about this? Surely there have been others who''ve complained to the school board regarding this matter.

You mean complaining to the ACLU isn''t enough? They''ll address any legal issues involved.

Complain away. Be outraged. Write letters. But that school board will give about as much credence to complaints from Bostonians about their school policies, as your school board would give if a bunch of people from Mississippi complained about yours. Are you suggesting national control of the schools to such a level that Mississipians can dictate policies for Bostonians?

 

[ksinger]

Date: 3/14/2010 11:51:09 AM
Author: HVVS
I hope they rethink this, too. I''ll bet lots of parents and young women who''ve already purchased their prom attire are spitting furious. Why are they bring deprived? Will the school system financially reimburse them? I personally would be outraged by a prom being canceled for the entire student body for a trivial reason like a same-sex couple might attend.

And ''In a statement issued on Wednesday, the board said it hoped that ''private citizens will organise an event for the juniors and seniors'' instead. '' -- Strikes me as just a little arrogant. What is this, expenditure reduction in disguise??? Then it becomes the private citizens'' duty forever after?

Ummm...it''s called public education, so yes you (or the locals) are already paying for it.

I think the issue is stupid. Meaning, the school board shouldn''t have done this, their reasoning for doing so very likely won''t stand up in court, and they''ll probably have their collective heads handed to them legally. But people, some of this outrage is a bit uninformed. Complaining from half a continent away? I really don''t know of any school districts that look kindly on the idea of some sort of national control of their anything, not even in Boston. Accusations of expenditure reduction? Outrage at private citizens paying for extracurricular activities at public schools? The reasons for the cancellation are idiotic, but prom is a tradition not some RIGHT.

Get a grip folks.

 

[dragonfly411]

to those of you that are insulting "the south".... who''s showing low tolerance now?

I do hope they reverse the prom issue. That poor girl is going to have a hard time.... but I am thinking too that many students will blame administration... not her.

 

[galeteia]

Date: 3/14/2010 12:08:53 PM
Author: ksinger
Are you suggesting national control of the schools to such a level that Mississipians can dictate policies for Bostonians?

Are you suggesting that citizens stand idle while human rights violations are being actively perpetrated by educational institutions of the United States of America?

Would it be appropriate if the couple was interracial, instead? Would it then be grounds to complain, or would it be a matter of regional jurisdiction there too?

 

[ksinger]

Date: 3/16/2010 1:23:40 PM
Author: Galateia

Date: 3/14/2010 12:08:53 PM
Author: ksinger
Are you suggesting national control of the schools to such a level that Mississipians can dictate policies for Bostonians?

Are you suggesting that citizens stand idle while human rights violations are being actively perpetrated by educational institutions of the United States of America?

Would it be appropriate if the couple was interracial, instead? Would it then be grounds to complain, or would it be a matter of regional jurisdiction there too?

I''m SUGGESTING a bit of realism and common sense tempering the moral outrage, that''s what. It has nothing to do with the WHO is being discriminated against. What I''m suggesting is that not everything you read in the newspaper is worth getting your hair on fire over unless you are affected. This is not some grand sweeping melodramatic "human rights violations are being actively perpetrated by educational institutions of the United States of America" it is ONE RURAL SCHOOL DISTRICT IN MISSISSIPI. This is NOT the end of the world. I''m not saying it''s right, but really, some perspective please. This was a cancelled prom, not a lynching.

Citizens AREN''T standing by idly. They are talking about it, those closest to the situation - ie STATE RESIDENTS - are actively supporting this girl and offering their resources to host that school''s prom. It''s a pity that it is even necessary, but people are stepping up and showing that not everyone feels like that school board. The ACLU has been called to take care of any laws that have been broken. For crying out loud, what on earth do you think to accomplish - aside from feeling morally superior - by complaining?? To WHOM? The school board? The state of Mississippi? Congress? The President himself? Do you understand that other than in cases of broken laws, that the actions of school boards and districts are NOT subject to some central authority? It''s called "local control of schools". Do you think a local school board has an out-of-state complaint line?

Who did you "complain" to when the Dover, PA ID case was happening? Who are you "complaining" to about the database of innocent citizens of color being harassed daily in NYC? (And happening right in the heart of the open-minded NORTH too, who''da thunk?) Would it have, or will it, make one iota of difference that you - maybe a thousand miles away - "complained"?

Complain away, but for all the actual effect it will have on that situation, you might as well be in an echo chamber.

 

[Rank Amateur]

The school for whom my wife was recently the couselor had some interesting rules for prom. You had to submit the name of your date to the administration. For approval, I guess.

Makes me think we should put an end to "the prom" all together.

 

[hlmr]

Date: 3/12/2010 5:20:41 PM
Author: trillionaire
what could be more ''distracting to the educational process'' than angry and disappointed classmates seething over their lost prom? Way to set an example for young people

I can''t believe this is happening in 2010.

CANNOT.

I cannot believe it either!!

Yes, a little dash of hypocrisy coupled with a fistful of hateful intolerance will undoubtedly help those students glide through the educational process, and graduate successfully into adulthood.

 

[pennquaker09]

Date: 3/16/2010 11:09:05 AM
Author: dragonfly411

to those of you that are insulting ''the south''.... who''s showing low tolerance now?


I do hope they reverse the prom issue. That poor girl is going to have a hard time.... but I am thinking too that many students will blame administration... not her.

I think for the most part, the characterization of the South is on point and it''s the fault of the region as a whole because they never do anything to change the perception. I''m from Alabama and it''s always going to be a crappy state because the morally superior want everyone to think and act like them.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 3/13/2010 3:15:35 PM
Author: trillionaire

I now live in VA, but the northern part.

Where are you, trillionaire? Were you at the get together at The Tiny Jewel Box? (If so, I will go back and look and the photo of the get together again.) I live across Route 7 from vespergirl, although I am in Connecticut now.

Deb/AGBF

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 3/16/2010 11:09:05 AM
Author: dragonfly411

to those of you that are insulting ''the south''.... who''s showing low tolerance now?

I do hope they reverse the prom issue. That poor girl is going to have a hard time.... but I am thinking too that many students will blame administration... not her.

Well, I have lived in the South for the past 11 years (FL & VA), and my husband is a born & bred rural Southerner, so I feel like I have the right to criticize.

I grew up in NY & Boston, so I can compare the difference between the two cultures, and overall, as a generalization, I found that public education policies were far more tolerant in the Northeast than they are in the South.

Of course there are many bigoted idiots living in NY & Boston, and I have met tons of lovely open-minded people in both states I have lived in the South. However, I find that overall, in the Northeast, the culture is more sensitive and open minded to people outside of the "mainstream." For goodness'' sake, my husband''s family felt discriminated against in rural southern VA for being Catholic instead of Baptist. And don''t even get me started on how they (still) treat African-Americans where he grew up.

You should have seen the looks on some of my husband''s relatives faces when they met the black and bi-racial members of my family. Where I grew up, in the melting pot of NYC, that kind of crap didn''t fly, and no one raised an eyebrow.

When a public school in Cambridge, MA bans gay people from public high school proms, I will take back my original comment, but until then, I do believe, as someone who has lived in different parts of the country, that there are still many parts of the South that have bigoted policies, whereas other parts of the country strive to be more progressive and inclusive.

 

[jas]

What struck me when I first heard of this was that the school board was attempting to avoid the problem entirely by cancelling prom. My guess was that they were thinking that this was the lesser evil than trying to placate either side of the argument...(and potentially lose votes) and were thinking this was "better" than refusing the girl admission to prom OR allowing it.

How fascinating that in their possible attempt to avoid problems...they caused a poopstorm...

Maybe there is a lesson here.

Again, I''ve dealt with a lot of school boards...they like to avoid confrontation. They also like to hire a lot of administrators, but that''s another story for another thread.

 

[JerseyTransplant83]

As a member of the PS community, and as an out lesbian who is getting ready to propose to her girlfriend, its really amazing to see the support on here. So, in a word, thanks!

 

[AGBF]

I hope I am smart enough not to insert myself into a dispute between MZ and ksinger, two of the most astute posters on Pricescope . (Nor do I want to start engaging in political discussion in contravention of Pricescope rules.) Their conversation was interesting to me, however. I can understand both of their points of view. I can understand the idea that one region may have customs and attitudes that offend someone so that that person may not choose to live or visit there. I can also understand that great writers and social activists can emerge from a region that has been smeared because many of its residents hold certain attitudes that others do not like. The author of To Kill A Mockingbird, Harper Lee, was a southerner (from Alabama). Certainly that book was a towering indictment of racism!

At any rate, I had been reading this thread. Then as I was listening to the radio I heard an announcement on the news that a lawyer for a Muslim prisoner who had been held at Guantanamo and tortured was going making some motion on his behalf. The lawyer, it said, was a marine colonel. Suddenly the lawyer was on the air for the traditional news byte. And he sounded like a good 'ole boy! He could have come right out of central casting to play a redneck from the Deep South. He was really down home!

And all I could think was God bless America! There are really marines-and southerners who become marines-who believe in the rule of law. Good men who believe that America is above torture. No matter what part of the country they are from. Maybe there are not many of them. I want to applaud the ones that stand up and do right!

Deb/AGBF

 

[trillionaire]

Date: 3/20/2010 1:07:43 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 3/13/2010 3:15:35 PM
Author: trillionaire

I now live in VA, but the northern part.

Where are you, trillionaire? Were you at the get together at The Tiny Jewel Box? (If so, I will go back and look and the photo of the get together again.) I live across Route 7 from vespergirl, although I am in Connecticut now.

Deb/AGBF

Haven''t ventured to any GTGs yet... but the DC ones ARE tempting me... am I a wuss for being apprehensive about going??? LOL

 

[studyer83]

I''m a southerner; just a passing point.

I don''t thing any of our anecdotal evidence (I grew up in XYZ and the people were soooo QRS!!) allows us to extrapolate as to whether an incredibly diverse and quite large region is progressive/tolerant/backwards/(in)tolerant.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 3/25/2010 10:41:35 PM
Author: trillionaire

Date: 3/20/2010 1:07:43 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 3/13/2010 3:15:35 PM
Author: trillionaire

I now live in VA, but the northern part.

Where are you, trillionaire? Were you at the get together at The Tiny Jewel Box? (If so, I will go back and look and the photo of the get together again.) I live across Route 7 from vespergirl, although I am in Connecticut now.

Haven''t ventured to any GTGs yet... but the DC ones ARE tempting me... am I a wuss for being apprehensive about going??? LOL

What makes you apprehensive, trillionaire?

AGBF

 

[Sizzle]

Date: 3/25/2010 10:41:35 PM
Author: trillionaire

Date: 3/20/2010 1:07:43 PM
Author: AGBF

IDate: 3/13/2010 3:15:35 PM
Author: trillionaire

I now live in VA, but the northern part.

Where are you, trillionaire? Were you at the get together at The Tiny Jewel Box? (If so, I will go back and look and the photo of the get together again.) I live across Route 7 from vespergirl, although I am in Connecticut now.

Deb/AGBF

Haven''t ventured to any GTGs yet... but the DC ones ARE tempting me... am I a wuss for being apprehensive about going??? LOL

If I remember correctly you are black? Me too and I understand your apprehension, people who are not people of color may not, but there''s always an apprehension and wondering if you are truly welcome and how you will be received. There have been a few comments here and there on Pricescope that make me wonder how members would react when a black person shows up at the get together.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 3/28/2010 11:25:43 AM
Author: Sizzle

Date: 3/25/2010 10:41:35 PM
Author: trillionaire

Date: 3/20/2010 1:07:43 PM
Author: AGBF

IDate: 3/13/2010 3:15:35 PM
Author: trillionaire

I now live in VA, but the northern part.

Where are you, trillionaire? Were you at the get together at The Tiny Jewel Box? (If so, I will go back and look and the photo of the get together again.) I live across Route 7 from vespergirl, although I am in Connecticut now.

Deb/AGBF

Haven't ventured to any GTGs yet... but the DC ones ARE tempting me... am I a wuss for being apprehensive about going??? LOL

If I remember correctly you are black? Me too and I understand your apprehension, people who are not people of color may not, but there's always an apprehension and wondering if you are truly welcome and how you will be received. There have been a few comments here and there on Pricescope that make me wonder how members would react when a black person shows up at the get together.

Sizzle-

I'm a dunce! I remember that you are a social worker. I am, too, and for a social worker I seem to be particularly thick! I didn't realize that trillionaire was (or that you were) black. Some people say they are and it sticks in my head; other people say it and I forget it. I "get" the welcome thing.

Deb

 

[Pandora II]

Date: 3/28/2010 11:25:43 AM
Author: Sizzle

Date: 3/25/2010 10:41:35 PM
Author: trillionaire

Date: 3/20/2010 1:07:43 PM
Author: AGBF

IDate: 3/13/2010 3:15:35 PM
Author: trillionaire

I now live in VA, but the northern part.

Where are you, trillionaire? Were you at the get together at The Tiny Jewel Box? (If so, I will go back and look and the photo of the get together again.) I live across Route 7 from vespergirl, although I am in Connecticut now.

Deb/AGBF

Haven''t ventured to any GTGs yet... but the DC ones ARE tempting me... am I a wuss for being apprehensive about going??? LOL

If I remember correctly you are black? Me too and I understand your apprehension, people who are not people of color may not, but there''s always an apprehension and wondering if you are truly welcome and how you will be received. There have been a few comments here and there on Pricescope that make me wonder how members would react when a black person shows up at the get together.

Can someone explain this to me? Am I missing something or am I reading this correctly as it comes across: that black PSers think they might not be welcome at a PS GTG ''because'' they are black?

I''m from London, UK and I can''t see why someones skin colour would be even something people noticed? Especially with all that sparkly bling to look at!

 

[ksinger]

Date: 3/30/2010 5:52:03 AM
Author: Pandora II

Date: 3/28/2010 11:25:43 AM
Author: Sizzle

Date: 3/25/2010 10:41:35 PM
Author: trillionaire

Date: 3/20/2010 1:07:43 PM
Author: AGBF

IDate: 3/13/2010 3:15:35 PM
Author: trillionaire

I now live in VA, but the northern part.

Where are you, trillionaire? Were you at the get together at The Tiny Jewel Box? (If so, I will go back and look and the photo of the get together again.) I live across Route 7 from vespergirl, although I am in Connecticut now.

Deb/AGBF

Haven''t ventured to any GTGs yet... but the DC ones ARE tempting me... am I a wuss for being apprehensive about going??? LOL

If I remember correctly you are black? Me too and I understand your apprehension, people who are not people of color may not, but there''s always an apprehension and wondering if you are truly welcome and how you will be received. There have been a few comments here and there on Pricescope that make me wonder how members would react when a black person shows up at the get together.

Can someone explain this to me? Am I missing something or am I reading this correctly as it comes across: that black PSers think they might not be welcome at a PS GTG ''because'' they are black?

I''m from London, UK and I can''t see why someones skin colour would be even something people noticed? Especially with all that sparkly bling to look at!

The short answer - since no one will reply, and which ought to give you a clue just how loaded your question really is here in America - is that no, you are likely not misinterpreting.

I''m not assuming you followed our last election but surely you got a distant glimpse at least, of a bit of the brouhaha about our first black president here? And how it was such a huge deal? It WAS a huge deal. That should give you a clue as to the importance still given to race here. My suggestion to you would be to read a bit of American history, from colonial times on, because it really started there, (or at least that''s a good place to start). Another would be to read some of your own history, which is also replete with racism, perhaps not so much in your lifetime, but not so long ago either. But then again, here - culled from an opinion piece - are some recent words of one of your own countrymen:

"For the best part of two centuries, we British ruled the waves, controlled two-fifths of the planet, and believed it was our responsibility to bring civilisation to those who allegedly lacked it. There is now a belief that all that is long gone, dead and buried, history forgotten in a tsunami of amnesia about our past. But these attitudes live on in new forms, constantly reproduced in each and every white citizen of this country."

At least some people in Britain seem to have an awareness that racism is not totally dead there either.

You then still might not understand it from a personal perspective, but reading history would give you a perspective on how it happened and THAT it happened, and that old attitudes don''t evaporate in a day or a decade, and have a way of growing anew in each generation. Most people who are not history freaks seem to think that what is true for them personally, is true for everyone, but it isn''t so.

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 3/31/2010 7:00:35 AM
Author: ksinger

Date: 3/30/2010 5:52:03 AM
Author: Pandora II


Can someone explain this to me? Am I missing something or am I reading this correctly as it comes across: that black PSers think they might not be welcome at a PS GTG ''because'' they are black?I''m from London, UK and I can''t see why someones skin colour would be even something people noticed? Especially with all that sparkly bling to look at!

The short answer - since no one will reply, and which ought to give you a clue just how loaded your question really is here in America - is that no, you are likely not misinterpreting.

I''m not assuming you followed our last election but surely you got a distant glimpse at least, of a bit of the brouhaha about our first black president here? And how it was such a huge deal? It WAS a huge deal. That should give you a clue as to the importance still given to race here. My suggestion to you would be to read a bit of American history, from colonial times on, because it really started there, (or at least that''s a good place to start). Another would be to read some of your own history, which is also replete with racism, perhaps not so much in your lifetime, but not so long ago either. But then again, here - culled from an opinion piece - are some recent words of one of your own countrymen:

''For the best part of two centuries, we British ruled the waves, controlled two-fifths of the planet, and believed it was our responsibility to bring civilisation to those who allegedly lacked it. There is now a belief that all that is long gone, dead and buried, history forgotten in a tsunami of amnesia about our past. But these attitudes live on in new forms, constantly reproduced in each and every white citizen of this country.''

At least some people in Britain seem to have an awareness that racism is not totally dead there either.

You then still might not understand it from a personal perspective, but reading history would give you a perspective on how it happened and THAT it happened, and that old attitudes don''t evaporate in a day or a decade, and have a way of growing anew in each generation. Most people who are not history freaks seem to think that what is true for them personally, is true for everyone, but it isn''t so.

i totally concur with ksinger''s well worded response.

mz

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 3/30/2010 5:52:03 AM
Author: Pandora II

Date: 3/28/2010 11:25:43 AM
Author: Sizzle

Date: 3/25/2010 10:41:35 PM
Author: trillionaire

Date: 3/20/2010 1:07:43 PM
Author: AGBF

IDate: 3/13/2010 3:15:35 PM
Author: trillionaire

I now live in VA, but the northern part.

Where are you, trillionaire? Were you at the get together at The Tiny Jewel Box? (If so, I will go back and look and the photo of the get together again.) I live across Route 7 from vespergirl, although I am in Connecticut now.

Deb/AGBF

Haven''t ventured to any GTGs yet... but the DC ones ARE tempting me... am I a wuss for being apprehensive about going??? LOL

If I remember correctly you are black? Me too and I understand your apprehension, people who are not people of color may not, but there''s always an apprehension and wondering if you are truly welcome and how you will be received. There have been a few comments here and there on Pricescope that make me wonder how members would react when a black person shows up at the get together.

Can someone explain this to me? Am I missing something or am I reading this correctly as it comes across: that black PSers think they might not be welcome at a PS GTG ''because'' they are black?

I''m from London, UK and I can''t see why someones skin colour would be even something people noticed? Especially with all that sparkly bling to look at!

I just saw the direction that this thread started to head in, and I just wanted to say, as Deb/AGBF''s & Trillionaire''s neighbor here in northern VA, that it totally sucks if black members of PS feel that they are unwelcome at regional GTGs. I would love to meet anyone else from PS who has the same weird jewelry fixation as myself. Sizzle, if there''s any poster on PS who''s made you feel unwelcome, you should totally report them to the admins. Yuck.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 3/31/2010 4:17:16 PM
Author: vespergirl

I just saw the direction that this thread started to head in, and I just wanted to say, as Deb/AGBF's &Trillionaire's neighbor here in northern VA, that it totally sucks if black members of PS feel that they are unwelcome at regional GTGs. I would love to meet anyone else from PS who has the same weird jewelry fixation as myself. Sizzle, if there's any poster on PS who's made you feel unwelcome, you should totally report them to the admins. Yuck.

I love you, vespergirl . I'm glad you're my neighbor!

I'm going to try to wade into these waters that ksinger so wisely approached carefullly and hope I don't drown myself.

I went to a new neurologist a few years ago. When I first met her I thought she was unfriendly. Since I needed her expertise, I treated her as I would treat any physician and I soon found that I had been mistaken in my initial assessment of her. She was a very friendly woman. I thought about it. I decided that it was likely that she had seemed unfriendly to me upon our initial meeting because she was African-American and that she was tense about meeting new patients, wondering how the new, primarily white patients in the practice she had bought were going to react to her. When she saw that she was met with warmth, she responded with warmth.

I could be wrong, but I think that some people of color are used to being met with coolness by white people and guard against it.

I am retreating for shore. I am sorry if I have offended anyone.

Deb/AGBF

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 3/31/2010 5:13:53 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 3/31/2010 4:17:16 PM
Author: vespergirl

I just saw the direction that this thread started to head in, and I just wanted to say, as Deb/AGBF''s &Trillionaire''s neighbor here in northern VA, that it totally sucks if black members of PS feel that they are unwelcome at regional GTGs. I would love to meet anyone else from PS who has the same weird jewelry fixation as myself. Sizzle, if there''s any poster on PS who''s made you feel unwelcome, you should totally report them to the admins. Yuck.

I love you, vespergirl . I''m glad you''re my neighbor!

I''m going to try to wade into these waters that ksinger so wisely approached carefullly and hope I don''t drown myself.

I went to a new neurologist a few years ago. When I first met her I thought she was unfriendly. Since I needed her expertise, I treated her as I would treat any physician and I soon found that I had been mistaken in my initial assessment of her. She was a very friendly woman. I thought about it. I decided that it was likely that she had seemed unfriendly to me upon our initial meeting because she was African-American and that she was tense about meeting new patients, wondering how the new, primarily white patients in the practice she had bought were going to react to her. When she saw that she was met with warmth, she responded with warmth.

I could be wrong, but I think that some people of color are used to being met with coolness by white people and guard against it.

I am retreating for shore. I am sorry if I have offended anyone.

Deb/AGBF

Aww, right back at you Deb!

 

[ksinger]

Well I had gotten wind of it in other threads over time, but this thread specifically has certainly been an eye-opener to me I can tell you. As a resident of one of the states that is almost always considered part of the south (certainly grouped there for voting purposes, and culture to a great extent, and certainly in poverty level) - if not deep south - I''ve just encountered a big dose of the contempt that I had always heard the northeast had for us, and of the judgemental arrogance I''d heard about, but had never actually encountered. I have now officially been generalized about and "grouped", and it does feel pretty crappy. In fact, I''ve even heard comments before from northerners who wish they could kick states like mine out of the union. Nice. When the hate word came out, it became clear to me at least, that rational discussion had pretty much ceased in here. It also just hammers home to me what I''ve always suspected, that people just really really need a group to feel superior to. It''s like it''s wired into our brains. Gotta define Us. Them. Skin color is the most obvious, but when that goes out of vogue, regional differences will suffice. "Well there ARE nice southerners - as individuals, but they ARE the exception after all, I mean the vast majority of them down there are (insert derogatory blanket character trait of choice)..." And when that goes out, people will find something else. So, regardless of where it might be, I think I and my accent would avoid any PS confab too. Ok...gotta go off and iron the wifebeater now ''for I go to work.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 4/1/2010 7:53:15 AM
Author: ksinger



Well I had gotten wind of it in other threads over time, but this thread specifically has certainly been an eye-opener to me I can tell you. As a resident of one of the states that is almost always considered part of the south (certainly grouped there for voting purposes, and culture to a great extent, and certainly in poverty level) - if not deep south - I've just encountered a big dose of the contempt that I had always heard the northeast had for us, and of the judgemental arrogance I'd heard about, but had never actually encountered. I have now officially been generalized about and 'grouped', and it does feel pretty crappy. In fact, I've even heard comments before from northerners who wish they could kick states like mine out of the union. Nice. When the hate word came out, it became clear to me at least, that rational discussion had pretty much ceased in here. It also just hammers home to me what I've always suspected, that people just really really need a group to feel superior to. It's like it's wired into our brains. Gotta define Us. Them. Skin color is the most obvious, but when that goes out of vogue, regional differences will suffice. 'Well there ARE nice southerners - as individuals, but they ARE the exception after all, I mean the vast majority of them down there are (insert derogatory blanket character trait of choice)...' And when that goes out, people will find something else. So, regardless of where it might be, I think I and my accent would avoid any PS confab too. Ok...gotta go off and iron the wifebeater now 'for I go to work.

ksinger-You may not be quite as old as I am, but perhaps you remember the Phil Ochs song, "Here's to the State of Mississippi"? In it, Mr. Ochs did advocate that the Mississippi of the 1960's "find another country to be part of". I do not know why you have chosen the stand that you are the South and the South is you. It reminds me of the stand people used to take during the Vietnam War in the United States when they said, "my country right or wrong". There has been plenty wrong in the southern United States in my own memory. I do not hold the entire south in contempt. If I hear a southern man's voice saying liberal things in amazement it is because it is a rarity to hear, not because I decided that only a few southerners were "good ones".

AGBF

 

[ksinger]

Date: 4/1/2010 9:20:57 AM
Author: AGBF

Date: 4/1/2010 7:53:15 AM
Author: ksinger




Well I had gotten wind of it in other threads over time, but this thread specifically has certainly been an eye-opener to me I can tell you. As a resident of one of the states that is almost always considered part of the south (certainly grouped there for voting purposes, and culture to a great extent, and certainly in poverty level) - if not deep south - I''ve just encountered a big dose of the contempt that I had always heard the northeast had for us, and of the judgemental arrogance I''d heard about, but had never actually encountered. I have now officially been generalized about and ''grouped'', and it does feel pretty crappy. In fact, I''ve even heard comments before from northerners who wish they could kick states like mine out of the union. Nice. When the hate word came out, it became clear to me at least, that rational discussion had pretty much ceased in here. It also just hammers home to me what I''ve always suspected, that people just really really need a group to feel superior to. It''s like it''s wired into our brains. Gotta define Us. Them. Skin color is the most obvious, but when that goes out of vogue, regional differences will suffice. ''Well there ARE nice southerners - as individuals, but they ARE the exception after all, I mean the vast majority of them down there are (insert derogatory blanket character trait of choice)...'' And when that goes out, people will find something else. So, regardless of where it might be, I think I and my accent would avoid any PS confab too. Ok...gotta go off and iron the wifebeater now ''for I go to work.

ksinger-You may not be quite as old as I am, but perhaps you remember the Phil Ochs song, ''Here''s to the State of Mississippi''? In it, Mr. Ochs did advocate that the Mississippi of the 1960''s ''find another country to be part of''. I do not know why you have chosen the stand that you are the South and the South is you. It reminds me of the stand people used to take during the Vietnam War in the United States when they said, ''my country right or wrong''. There has been plenty wrong in the southern United States in my own memory. I do not hold the entire south in contempt. If I hear a southern man''s voice saying liberal things in amazement it is because it is a rarity to hear, not because I decided that only a few southerners were ''good ones''.

AGBF

And I don''t know why you thought I was talking to you. I wasn''t, was I? You have been as mild and peace-making as you generally are. But see how that works? When I tar the entire northeast with the same brush? Gets your dander up a bit and you take it a bit personally? Amazing how that works. But I have to say, for you, who have read so many of my posts, to cast me as an unnuanced knee-jerk "my country right or wrong" type person, is high insult indeed.

What gets me, is the self-congratulatory tone of some here in this thread, and other threads recently, that act as if their alleged wonderful open-mindedness came from some herculean effort of their own, instead of necessity and constant exposure brought on by high population density and coastal ethnic mixing that just doesn''t happen out here as much, or in rural areas in general regardless of location, most immigrants gravitating to cities. Who decry stereotyping, and accuse others of bigotry while themselves stereotyping in the very same sentence. I do NOT defend bigotry, and I never have, but neither am I going to allow it pass un-commented upon just because it goes in the apparently currently popular direction of regional bashing.

As I mentioned before and no one responded to at all, the NYCPD is targeting innocent people of color, harrassing them and putting their names in a database. Prejudice free? I think not. There was another recent case in NY of a gay teen who sued his school district (and won) for not protecting him against the taunts of other kids. Likely to not happen here? Again, it appears not. By continually focusing on the failings of "those people over there/down there/out there" and congratulating ourselves on how much different and more advanced WE are, it enables people to comfortably not pay attention to what goes on right in their own front yard, and to conveniently forget their own history, which is hardly lily white in the long sordid spectacle of racism in this country, racism that was only the most spectacular against blacks, but included the Irish, the Chinese, the Japanese, and many other groups. NO ONE is pure. Period. But the unconscious smugness of the accident of birth is a common human failing.

I am and have been - on this very forum - a huge critic of some of the attitudes of my state, but I have not LEFT it and dismissed it as unworthy or hopeless either. There is much good here, along with the bad. My husband slogs on every day like Sysiphus, trying to stem the tide of poverty''s march here through education. He doesn''t spend his days getting indignant, he just tries his best to do what he can. And that would describe the vast majority of people anywhere.

I''m done here. I''ve had my say, and no minds were changed I''m sure.

 

[AGBF]

ksinger wrote:

"And I don't know why you thought I was talking to you. I wasn't, was I? You have been as mild and peace-making as you generally are. But see how that works? When I tar the entire northeast with the same brush? Gets your dander up a bit and you take it a bit personally? Amazing how that works. But I have to say, for you, who have read so many of my posts, to cast me as an unnuanced knee-jerk 'my country right or wrong' type person, is high insult indeed.

(snip)

I'm done here. I've had my say, and no minds were changed I'm sure."

First, ksinger, I hope you are not really done here, because if you are not reading this I am wasting my breath (so to speak). I am really writing to you.

Second, I thought that you were talking to me (personally) because it was I who brought up the example of a "good southerner" (the member of the JAG Corps who defended the Guantanamo torture victim). When I did that I commented that there had always been individual leaders and writers in the south-even during a time when most people were racist-who opposed racism.

Third, no it would not have gotten my dander up even a little bit if I had not thought that you were addressing me individually, but were merely excoriating northeasterners in general for something. I am not so invested in the northeast that I would have felt personally insulted by any such remarks. Heck, you could even insult my high school although the Beach Boys (it is they, isn't it?) exhort us to "be true to your school". I only ask of others that they do not bully my daughter!

Fourth, I am sorry I insulted you. I have always held you in the highest esteem and I always will.

Hugs,
Deb

 

[dragonfly411]

I think the reason that some of us southerners take things to heart is because the south has sort of become it''s own type of culture in some ways... the same way that the north has. We have different foods, a different accent, different customs and beliefs. I''ve found the south to be much more extended family friendly (we will have 30+ at Easter) than some other regions (not ALL mind you, but SOME). We take it to heart because the south is what we are, how we were raised, who we associate with, it''s our tradition, our customs, our way of life. Sweet tea, moss in the oak trees, fishing, southern drawl, opening our homes to others with a warm welcome. And then we get forums like this, were southerners are portrayed as backwards redneck intolerant hicks who are simply out to retain some traditional power or something... and we''re insulted, and people express contempt and hatred. And yes... I do take that personally. That insults my family, my extended family, my friends, my friends'' families. You insult a region when you know absolutely nothing about them (at least, if you have contempt for that region, then to me you apparently know nothing about them) but you consider yourself all tolerant and holier than thou. I''m sorry but that isn''t tolerance.

BTW this post is not directed at any one person... although some of you really SHOULD be ashamed of yourselves for generalizing a region without taking the time to really get to know the people from said region.

Going to ride my horse, eat some corn bread, and wait for my cousins, aunts, uncles, sister, and family to come eat a giant easter meal.