Type II a and b coloured diamonds

[Gecko]

I am interested in buying coloured diamonds - saw 2 which came with additional GIA certs which certify that these are type II a (pink) and type IIb (blue) diamonds.

Need your advice on how to value a natural fancy coloured diamonds? Unlike colourless diamonds where we can "gauge" the market price via rapoport, there seems to be no "rapoport" list for coloured diamonds.

Please advice. Thanks

 

[diagem]

Date: 6/8/2010 6:36:21 AM
Author:Gecko
I am interested in buying coloured diamonds - saw 2 which came with additional GIA certs which certify that these are type II a (pink) and type IIb (blue) diamonds.

Need your advice on how to value a natural fancy coloured diamonds? Unlike colourless diamonds where we can ''gauge'' the market price via rapoport, there seems to be no ''rapoport'' list for coloured diamonds.

Please advice. Thanks

True..., no Rapaport for colored Diamonds.
The only true advice I can give is Pinks & Blues (and other genuinely rare colors) are valued on a visual Gem per Gem basis.

 

[kenny]

I am very interested in naturally-colored diamonds too.
I also am very interested in not overpaying by researching how they are priced.

Unfortunately I find it is much more difficult for the consumer to arrive at a "fair" priced for coloreds than for white diamonds.
They are just so rare and small variations in the color seem to have a huge impact on prices.
Making matters worse for your original question it is very rarely mentioned which diamonds fall into the II a/b categories.

The only thing I have found that makes me feel a tiny bit comfortable with pricing is when prices are published on the Internet, as opposed to being revealed only in private.
When deciding on what price to publish they have to take competition into account to attract a buyer.
When revealing prices in private they don't; and I just suspect this results in a higher price.

Based on pics from Fancydiamonds.net, which has a huge inventory, sometimes prices seem consistent and other times prices are surprising.
I'll say this, a tiny bit of brown in a pink can make it a screaming deal compared to no brown.
Sometimes if you put the two pics side by side you cannot see much difference in color, but the price of the one which GIA says has a hint of brown is Muuuuuuuuuch lower.
Yes, I realize comparing color in pics is a nono, but at least it's the same vendor and the background is always white.

Unlike pinks, greens or glue-greens with a hint of brown, mentioned in the comments section of the GIA report, still go for prices in the stratosphere.

Another way to arrive at some idea of fair price is to just look at as many listing as you can.
Here are two more vendors of naturally colored diamonds.
There are other vendors, but they either don't list prices or I do not like their business practices so I won't list them.

Ishay Ben-David Corp

Langerman

 

[Gecko]

Thanks for your reply. Since pinks and blues are very rare, it would be very good investments. But my dilemna is what are the criteria to look for and how to ensure that I buy a piece which is worth investing in.

Will all the diamond experts out there, please give me your comments. Thanks

 

[kenny]

Diamonds are not an investment.
The day after you buy one you can sell it for only around half what you paid.
That means the market prices must double for you to break even.
That's just the cold hard reality of the diamond market.

Diamonds are not a commodity like gold which sells for just a pinch over the commodity price.

Yes pinks and blues are rare - but you pay for that rarity up front in higher prices when you buy them.
Australia's Argyle mine, where most pinks come from, will be exhausted in 10 years so some may thing pinks are a good investment.
The only problem is the market also knows supply will contract soon so today's prices take that into account.

Buy diamonds because you love them.

 

[clgwli]

Date: 6/8/2010 1:05:26 PM
Author: kenny
I am very interested in naturally-colored diamonds too.
I also am very interested in not overpaying by researching how they are priced.

Unfortunately I find it is much more difficult for the consumer to arrive at a 'fair' priced for coloreds than for white diamonds.
They are just so rare and small variations in the color seem to have a huge impact on prices...

...The only thing I have found that makes me feel a tiny bit comfortable with pricing is when prices are published on the Internet, as opposed to being revealed only in private.
When deciding on what price to publish they have to take competition into account to attract a buyer.
When revealing prices in private they don't; and I just suspect this results in a higher price.

Snipping part of Kenny's post I think this needs to be said again. And I do suggest talking to local sellers as well to see what they can find and at what price. You may not have much luck that way as I didn't, but I did get a couple of estimates on cost based on 3 diamonds that were found locally. Unfortunately in their cases it was even harder to guess since the cut was not that great. In my case 2 were cut very deep for the cut and the other the person never called me back on with details, but at least gave me a price. Just make sure when talking to local stores that they are GIA graded because they will help you find out if your stone is natural color or enhanced. I had a store that had absolutely no GIA graded color stones. That unnerves me since I cannot get a written statment that they are natural which would be more costly than enhanced.

But it was good IMO to talk to many people and see what they have to offer and for what price.

One of my biggest pet peeves about colored stones are the sites that refuse to publish prices of ALL their stones. That never sits well with me at all. Anytime a company does that or does not offer a GIA color rating for 1/2 carat on up (I don't expect it of small stones unless ultra rare colors or clarity like IF) I sadly automatically write them off as someone to buy from. Though I do use them for pricing purposes when there is a GIA certificate.

So good luck researching and I do suggest talking to as many people as you can to get an idea on price. Something Kenny mentioned in another post needs to be repeated. Diamonds are NOT good for investments. Buy them like cars... buy because you love it, not because you expect to make money in the resale market because you probably won't.

While I am not in the market for a pink, I am very interested in a gray-blue stone in the future, so I do look around time to time seeing what is available and for what price. I hope some day we can save up for one.

 

[dkodner]

Hello Gecko,

Unfortunately it is a simple question with complicated answers. If you are considering truly rare colors and stones, then each stone is it''s own work of art, and although you can get a range of what is being paid for works of art by the "Masters", it is impossible to get an "average" price for a single work. The same holds true for colored diamonds. One fancy intense pink diamond is not like every other fancy intense pink, so like DiaGem says, they must be valued on a visual gem per gem basis.

If you are buying for investment, you must buy from someone who will be a broker for you rather than from a retail store. I know Kenny is frustrated by lack of information, but the fact is that if you are talking about truly rare colors, there is just not enough stones out there to quantify them into a single pricing structure. If you are seeing prices for the diamond listed on a website, you are paying retail. If you are investing, that is not how you want to buy.

Kenny is right that in white diamonds there are no real investments, that does not hold true for colored diamonds. IF you buy a colored diamond well, AND you are buying a visually appealing diamond AND it is a rare color, it can be an very solid investment. I should also add though, that it should never be looked upon as a quick turnaround investment. You will need to really hold onto that stone for 5 to 10 years to realize a good return on the investment. It should be looked at as a longer term investment, not a quick flip. I have never sold/brokered/collected an "investment" quality colored diamond that did not resell for at least what was paid for it (however, these are not stones bought at full retail). Sometimes it can be a great investment, sometimes just a store of value, but there are a lot of factors that go into that when you go to sell it. In colored diamonds, the rule of half it''s value when you walk out the door does not hold true. I should also add, I''m not talking about average colored diamond, ie. yellows, browns etc. if you want an investment, you want in the families of pinks, blues, greens purples etc. If you are looking at investment quality, you want nothing less than intense (excepting fancy purplish red), and preferably vivid and/or deep. It should always have a GIA report, and then preferably another report from an expert in colored diamonds, that can explain the diamond in greater detail than you will get from the GIA report.

I do completely agree with Kenny though in that you should always and only buy diamonds that you love. Never buy it just because it is rare. If you do not love the diamond you are buying, chances are no one else will either, and then you will have a bad investment, and a not so pretty mistake to stare at forever. Regular business practices hold true always, it is really only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it, no matter how rare and/or beautiful it is.

The best advice I can give you towards pricing, is to watch the auction houses, and see what is being paid for actual diamonds. The websites are a good gauge as well, but again, if you are trying to invest, those are not the prices you want to pay. If you are dealing with someone who is brokering a stone between you and a cutter, you should be able to find something at least in the same classification listed on the internet, and if you are paying less, and your stone looks better than the picture, you can be a little comfortable that you are buying well. Of course, the rarer the diamond, the harder it is to find comparisons.

I hope this rambling was at least a little helpful, and whether for investment or just to enjoy, I hope you enter the fascinating world of colored diamonds. Be warned though, they are like potato chips, you can''t seem to have just one....

 

[diagem]

Date: 6/9/2010 5:00:29 PM
Author: dkodner
Hello Gecko,

Unfortunately it is a simple question with complicated answers. If you are considering truly rare colors and stones, then each stone is it''s own work of art, and although you can get a range of what is being paid for works of art by the ''Masters'', it is impossible to get an ''average'' price for a single work. The same holds true for colored diamonds. One fancy intense pink diamond is not like every other fancy intense pink, so like DiaGem says, they must be valued on a visual gem per gem basis.

If you are buying for investment, you must buy from someone who will be a broker for you rather than from a retail store. I know Kenny is frustrated by lack of information, but the fact is that if you are talking about truly rare colors, there is just not enough stones out there to quantify them into a single pricing structure. If you are seeing prices for the diamond listed on a website, you are paying retail. If you are investing, that is not how you want to buy.

Kenny is right that in white diamonds there are no real investments, that does not hold true for colored diamonds. IF you buy a colored diamond well, AND you are buying a visually appealing diamond AND it is a rare color, it can be an very solid investment. I should also add though, that it should never be looked upon as a quick turnaround investment. You will need to really hold onto that stone for 5 to 10 years to realize a good return on the investment. It should be looked at as a longer term investment, not a quick flip. I have never sold/brokered/collected an ''investment'' quality colored diamond that did not resell for at least what was paid for it (however, these are not stones bought at full retail). Sometimes it can be a great investment, sometimes just a store of value, but there are a lot of factors that go into that when you go to sell it. In colored diamonds, the rule of half it''s value when you walk out the door does not hold true. I should also add, I''m not talking about average colored diamond, ie. yellows, browns etc. if you want an investment, you want in the families of pinks, blues, greens purples etc. If you are looking at investment quality, you want nothing less than intense (excepting fancy purplish red), and preferably vivid and/or deep. It should always have a GIA report, and then preferably another report from an expert in colored diamonds, that can explain the diamond in greater detail than you will get from the GIA report.

I do completely agree with Kenny though in that you should always and only buy diamonds that you love. Never buy it just because it is rare. If you do not love the diamond you are buying, chances are no one else will either, and then you will have a bad investment, and a not so pretty mistake to stare at forever. Regular business practices hold true always, it is really only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it, no matter how rare and/or beautiful it is.

The best advice I can give you towards pricing, is to watch the auction houses, and see what is being paid for actual diamonds. The websites are a good gauge as well, but again, if you are trying to invest, those are not the prices you want to pay. If you are dealing with someone who is brokering a stone between you and a cutter, you should be able to find something at least in the same classification listed on the internet, and if you are paying less, and your stone looks better than the picture, you can be a little comfortable that you are buying well. Of course, the rarer the diamond, the harder it is to find comparisons.

I hope this rambling was at least a little helpful, and whether for investment or just to enjoy, I hope you enter the fascinating world of colored diamonds. Be warned though, they are like potato chips, you can''t seem to have just one....

I''ll toast to that

 

[Gecko]

Thanks dkodner for your advice. I really like pink, blue and green diamonds.

"If you are looking at investment quality, you want nothing less than intense (excepting fancy purplish red), and preferably vivid and/or deep. It should always have a GIA report, and then preferably another report from an expert in colored diamonds, that can explain the diamond in greater detail than you will get from the GIA report."

You mentioned that the color should be > intense. What abt just plain fancy blue or pink. But they are supposed to be type II a or b diamonds, what does this mean?

Thanks so much for your advice

 

[kenny]

Sorry but how can involving a additional person, a "broker", lower the cost?
How can the buyer know (s)he is paying a fair price, especially with an additional person making money off the transaction? Just trust you?

Do you have access to the inventories of the above vendors.
If so how much below the Internet-published price can you sell me these diamonds for?

BTW I know that Fancydiamonds.net negotiates on price, so take those listed prices with a grain of salt.

 

[dkodner]

Gecko- the suggestion to buy nothing less than intense is purely my opinion, but I have found there is a much greater market for the finer goods, and although a fancy color graded stone is beautiful, IMHO I think they are better suited for jewelry that can enhance it''s inherent color and beauty. The more saturated color, the more it can stand on it''s own, making more desirable for a collection. But there is nothing wrong with owning a fancy color, fancy blues and pinks are still extremely rare and expensive.

There are some great books out there on colored diamonds, Fancy Color Diamonds by Harvey Harris, Collecting and classifying colored diamonds by Stephen Hofer and Alan Bronstien. The GIA published a great book with all of their articles on colored diamonds, but I believe it is out of print now. Before I invested anything more than play money in a colored diamond, I would read some of these books.

Kenny- You are always going to have someone in between you and a diamond, especially a rare colored diamond. Someone has to travel the world, going to into little hidden offices where the worlds rarest gems pass through, cultivate and earn their trust, take the risk on buying it and finding someone like you or me to buy it next. Not that you said there is, but there is nothing wrong with several hands touching a rare stone and making a small profit on it for doing their part of ultimately getting it to my desk or your home. The truth is expensive stones pass hands with very little margin along the way, but each one makes enough for his/her risk involved and moves on to the next one.

There is a big difference between having a broker and buying from a retail jeweler. A retail jeweler adds value to the purchase by providing large inventory like the vendors you mentioned, they have taken the initial risk on investment, and they provide services like settings, a full jewelry selection, all of the overhead involved, and just as importantly the trust you develop with a jeweler you deal with regularly.

If you hire a broker to source a collection of colored diamonds, they will work on an agreed percentage of the sale for every diamond they source for you. But, most brokers are not interested in selling you one diamond. Your going to buy much closer to the source (and thus a lower price) because you agree to do a certain volume that makes it worthwhile for the broker to hunt for them. Brokers like that spend their lives exploring and cultivating the relationships needed to get access to such gems, and has the experience to help guide you through your plan of collection or investment. The question of a fair price comes only over time, as they will also help you sell your stones if you wish, and has the network of other dealers and collectors to move your stone to its next home. If you make money or hold your value, the broker did a good job, and you will continue to business with him/her.

The short answer to your question of just trust you, the answer is yes. Trust is ultimately what you have to rely on in buying diamonds of any kind. If you don''t completely trust who you deal with, you should not deal with them, and I don''t say that to be cliche''. That holds true for just about every one of life''s transactions. There is always initial risk, but then trust is earned over time. That''s why IMHO whether you are buying jewelry from a store, or diamonds from a broker, you should develop a relationship with someone who you can rely on to treat you fairly for all of your needs.

 

[kenny]

So does that mean you can't get me fancydiamodns.net's diamonds cheaper than their listed prices?

 

[SmallSparkle]

Just a quick note on comparing diamond colours fancydiamonds.net, yes they are all on white backgrounds and taken by the same vendor. BUT look very closely at the whit background colour.

Light coloured diamonds photos will almost always show some level of tint in the background. I noticed this when I was looking at purchasing a parcel of pink melee, the colour saturation in the diamonds looks almost the same for the Fancy Light, Fancy & Fancy Intense diamonds melee on offer. Then when I looked closely at the background colour, the lighter colours had a higher level of pink tint. I am not sure if this is an innocent side affect of the camera setup or a result of deliberate manipulation, but I do know it means you don’t always get a like with like comparison.

That all said, I did by a parcel of diamonds from fancydiamonds.net and am very happy with the diamonds, their service and the price (don’t forget to ask for a discount). In fact I am looking at buying more coloured diamonds from them.

 

[dkodner]

Date: 6/10/2010 12:56:16 AM
Author: kenny
So does that mean you can''t get me fancydiamodns.net''s diamonds cheaper than their listed prices?

Kenny- I did not answer that question the first time because it is an inappropriate question to ask in this thread. My posts and this site are for educational purposes, but you know that.

In general, I would not be interested in undercutting someone else who has already shown you a stone for a one time sale to make a quick buck. That''s not how I do business. If you have seen a diamond that someone else already owns and is offering to you, you should deal with that person to get the best value you can.

 

[kenny]

Date: 6/10/2010 9:42:59 AM
Author: dkodner

Date: 6/10/2010 12:56:16 AM
Author: kenny
So does that mean you can't get me fancydiamodns.net's diamonds cheaper than their listed prices?

Kenny- I did not answer that question the first time because it is an inappropriate question to ask in this thread. My posts and this site are for educational purposes, but you know that.
In general, I would not be interested in undercutting someone else who has already shown you a stone for a one time sale to make a quick buck. That's not how I do business. If you have seen a diamond that someone else already owns and is offering to you, you should deal with that person to get the best value you can.

I think asking for an explanation of a professional's diamond services is appropriate for diamond forum.
Appraisers here explain what they do all the time.

So we're back to, "Just trust me that adding another mouth to feed will save you money on diamonds that are already impossible to determine a fair price for".

Here on PS I have read many warnings about anyone who promise to sell to buyers below retail.
If it sounds too good to be true . . .

Personally, I wish you all the success in the world, but that business model, Trust Trust Trust, sounds so naive and 1950s to me.
This is the Internet age of Transparency Transparency Transparency and Knowledge Knowledge Knowledge.

Sorry, don't shoot the messenger.

 

[dkodner]

Kenny-

Please do no take this as "shooting any messengers", I mean no animosity in my posts. But, you did not ask me about my services, you specifically asked me if I could undercut another vendors offerings.

If you are asking simply about what I do, then I will tell you I own a high end retail store (some may call it a boutique), and I also offer brokerage services on rare stones like I described above. As I tried to explain, there are reasons why you would get a better price using a broker rather than buying retail. To take advantage of those services, there must be a commitment from the buyer as well. If you are serious about my services, I am an easy man to find outside of this forum, and would always welcome any of your thoughts or questions.

I am also very well versed in the modern age, thank you....

..and although I do enjoy most things 50''s style, I do not think that is a fair analogy. I''m not simply asking you to "just trust me", I am going to earn your trust. I''m going to educate you (knowledge knowledge knowledge) much greater than what you can read on the internet, and quite frankly, offer much more transparency. When you buy from a broker, you are going to know the actual cost, you are paying the broker a fee that is agreed upon between both of you. You won''t ever get that kind of transparency on the internet. Knowledge without understanding can be a dangerous thing. Personally, if I am spending a sum of money, I want to get all the knowledge I possibly can about what I am buying, and then I also want someone with experience to help guide me through the process.

When you talk about just trusting, isn''t that what you do to an even greater extent on the internet ? You are dealing with pictures and a faceless entity, that takes a lot greater trust then when you see the person you are dealing with and can look into their eyes. You simply cannot do any business transaction of any kind without ultimately relying on trust, there is just no way around it.

Don''t shoot me either .....

 

[kenny]

Date: 6/10/2010 12:13:30 PM
Author: dkodner
Kenny-
you specifically asked me if I could undercut another vendors offerings.

No, I did not use the term undercut.
You did.

People look on various vendor sites for the lowest price on the same virtual stone all the time.
Are they undercutting?
Are they unethical?
Of course not.
It is just business.
Perhaps some colored diamonds are also available via such a virtual inventory system, so I felt the question was legit.

I wish you success with your business.
You are a good salesman.

 

[dkodner]

Kenny-

Firstly, thank you for the kinds words...

I apologize for using words you did not, that is just how I interpreted what you were asking, and I should have asked you to clarify rather than make that assumption.

I do not want to be frustrating to you or anyone else reading with my posts, I was just trying to share how that process really works, since Gecko is contemplating what sounds like an expensive purchase. There is such a big difference between rare colored diamonds and white diamonds. The amount available is so different that they are handled in very separate ways.

Your questions are legit, and I do not mean to imply that searching vendor lists is unethical or wrong to do. In white diamonds, there is such a large supply that exposing them to more people can help move the amount of goods most dealers and cutters need to to stay in business and to buy more stones. So you will see the same diamond often listed by many vendors. I have no problem with this at all.

To be more specific to the OP''s question, you will rarely see the same colored diamond, particularly if they are truly rare colors listed from different vendors. Those dealers are very protective of their inventory, because they are hard to come by, and in a lot of ways, it is the hunt and the finding of such stones that no one else has that is part of the thrill of that business. If I find a very rare stone, I do not want to expose it to many vendors to sell. I want to save it for my customers. That helps set me or any other broker apart from the others. There is always a buyer for these items (although they are not usually quick sales), so there is not much need to let everyone else sell it too. The biggest problem in the colored diamond world is finding enough supply. That is certainly one reason they command such high prices, demand exceeds supply.

So it really can be very difficult to just compare prices for say a 1 carat fancy pink diamond, more so if it is intense or vivid. You also have to remember that in white diamonds, excepting the inherent differences in lab reports, you can compare one D, VS 1 to another without seeing them next to each other ( I know that opens a can of worms, I''m just saying in general.) You cannot do that in color. I have seen fancy intense pinks in particular that have the same "grade" but are very different stones, with very different values, because one might have the inherent color, but it may be a dud, or the color may not be even throughout the stone, and then another may be again the same color, but bright and lively and bordering vivid. That would be a much more valuable stone.

I think it may be better advise to Gecko to call several vendors who deal in colored diamonds and speak to them directly about the nuances of the stones and their prices for different levels of quality, rather than just look for lists on the internet. You should be able to get at least a handle on ranges of prices, and then compare that with published lists that you see in order to see what a "value" on a particular diamond might be. It does take a lot more work to buy a colored diamond than a white diamond, and a white is no easy task these days..lol...BUT.....IMHO there is nothing more exciting than owning a diamond of color. They are worth the extra effort. Most of them are natures most beautiful mistakes..

I hope that clarifies my thoughts a bit, and I hope it is somewhat helpful to anyone interested in colored diamonds. Kenny and Gecko, I hope you both take the plunge, even if you are a little unsure about how you are buying, I have full faith you will be captivated by it''s beauty and never regret making the purchase.

I know, I get too wordy in these posts, you should hear me speak.....