Two *very* different appraisals.....what to do..

[denverappraiser]

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On 9/19/2004 7:08:57 PM elmo wrote:

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On 9/18/2004 10:45:11 PM denverappraiser wrote:

Have you tested this?
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Yes.----------------

Elmo,

Thanks for the info. Any idea what their prices and terms are like when dealing with consumers?

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[elmo]

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On 9/19/2004 7:28:04 PM denverappraiser wrote:


Thanks for the info. Any idea what their prices and terms are like when dealing with consumers?
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Someone just has to call and ask for a Public Fees and Services list (about a 10 page document describing what you're asking) along with a client agreement for them to sign. They get a client number just like you. On a small fancy yellow I checked into not too long ago, my price was something like $180 for a color/ident report versus $150 for the seller to get it. I'm not sure if the 20% or so premium holds across the board or not.

Edited to add: I'm not meaning to nitpick, Neil. The few folks on here like you, I read your posts eagerly and learn...alot. My knowledge and experience is like a few narrow, deep slices. It's kindof fun though to talk with folks who have done this for years for a living and still be able to contribute now and then.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

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Are you back at home? Is home still there?
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Back at home and home's still there. Thanks for asking Neil. I'm trying to talk the wife into making one of those 45 foot mega motorhomes our new place of residence, so we can just drive around all the hurricanes.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

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If you want to sell the stone, it does not matter what appraiser 1 OR
appraiser 2 say the stone is. Send it to GIA or AGS and get a proper
report on it, then get an appraisal from someone who can look at the
cert and tell you if he agrees or not.
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Either way, you end up having to get an appraisal to know what it's worth.

I would also question the designation of "proper report" in regards to the GIA report, which fails to furnish critical information regarding the cut of the diamond, ie crown/pavilion height-depth/angle information. Without this information to pinpoint the caliber of make, dealers would vary widely on the value they place on the diamond. The value range from top make to poor make is on the order of 60%.

Many people just want a professional opinion of what their diamond is worth. GIA and AGS are both mute in this respect. If the consumer goes to a dealer/buyer without an idea of what their diamond is worth, an AGS or GIA report is not going to be any help to them. It would be unusual for a dealer/buyer to help them out with an unbiased opinion of the diamond's fair market value.

An AGS or GIA report in combination with a competent appraisal is the best of all scenarios, but if a consumer doesn't have the time or money to do both, he'd be better off with an appraisal from a recognized appraiser, in my opinion. At least then he has an idea of what his diamond is worth, which is usually what they're looking for.

Take for example an AGA diamond report/appraisal from Dave Atlas's lab which gives more information than a GIA report. Along with this Dave could furnish a multi-tiered analysis of the diamond's fair market value on a retail, wholesale & liquidation basis.

With this information the consumer is far better armed with knowledge than if he had only an AGS/GIA report, and most knowledgeable dealers would accept the AGA grading as being comparable to AGS/GIA.

Not too mention the consumer would receive the report in less than a week at a price far less than an AGS/GIA report.

 

[Andrew8527]

” Could be that a direct measurement on the depth is not possible because of the setting, and the appraisers were estimating the depth.

Tenhagen's appraisal will carry a lot of weight. Joe's a good appraiser, with a good rep. ”

Correct, a direct measurement on depth is not possible with this setting. I just read the brief bio on Joe, doesn’t mention that he’s independent? Or, based on his reputation….doesn’t matter?

I really appreciate the responses thus far. Yet, I’m still torn as to where to take this next….

A week ago, I was in a hurry to get this ring/stone appraised and sold. I was anxious to know what the financial situation was going to be before deciding on a new stone and mounting. But now I’m realizing that with patience and proper knowledge of this stone (whether that be a GIA report or an AGA report), I may be able to get more $. Agreed?

I definitely want to know what this stone weighs though. The bigger it is, the more eager I’ll be to do this right and send it off for an appraisal. In the meantime, I’m very tempted to have it taken out by someone local and weigh it at work on my microbalance. It’s going to come out anyways if I were to send it off for an appraisal, right? What might Joe Local jeweler charge me to take it out?

The possible buyers that I’ve tossed around: family jeweler at home, SO’s family jeweler in Miami, or Joe Blow diamond buyer here in MEM. Am I missing someone/somewhere? Haven’t really considered the direct to the public option, as I wasn’t sure what “credentials” might be expected, of myself and the stone. But from the sound of it, a true independent appraisal from one of the guys here should be enough. I do realize that selling direct to the public is likely to garner the most $$. Then again, I’m not sure it’s worth my time, especially if it’s only a difference of a few hundred dollars. I’m a frequent ebay’er, built up ~40 all positive feedback...is that even worth considering, being that I’m not a “dealer” and have never sold any sort of jewelry? What scares me about that sort of transaction is, if I claim “satisfaction guaranteed”...and the buyer for some reason isn’t satisfied, he could pull a switcheroo when returning the stone. There are a so many other bad scenarios that I could think of too. Of course, I could say “ALL SALES FINAL”...but how confident would you be in a seller like that?

Anyways, as I digress, I remain open to any and all comments. This thread grew quite a bit over the weekend while I was away.

Thanks again for your time…

 

[denverappraiser]

Andrew,

We have a tendency to digress into our own little world here and skip past the original question. I think everyone pretty much agrees:

Go to someone you trust and have the stone removed from the mounting.
Have appraiser #1 re-examine the stone and possibly change their conclusions or take it to an as yet unidentified appraiser #3 if you don't count that appraiser as reliable.

Consider sending it to a lab depending on the results of the above steps, your time and financial constraints and your decision about how you want to market the stone. You will have much better information with which to make this decision after you've done the above.

Does that about sum it up?

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[Andrew8527]

Sounds like a plan. I'll have it taken out and then bring it back to #1. She did mention that she'd gladly make changes to the appraisal if I ever had the stone out, since her quoted weight was only an approximation. Then it'll go to independent appraisal #3 for the final word.

And just to put a few pictures to all this commotion....

Thanks again.

 

[Andrew8527]

Well, looks like we can put the weight issue to bed....

Will be back with an update on what appraiser #1 has to say.

Thanks

 

[Andrew8527]

For anyone following this thread, here's the latest.

The previous two opinions were...

Appraiser #1, (a GG): E/F, SI2, 1.44 ct. Very fluorescent 8.89 x 5.9 x 3.65 mm We soon learned her measurements were grossly innacurate.

Appraiser #2, (credentials unknown): Solid H, SI3-I1, .94 ct. Slight fluorescence 8.75 x 5.6 x 3.1 mm

[Note: Appraisers #1 and #2 examined the diamond in the mounting, so their weights are derived from approximate measurements. I later had the stone removed, for the last appraisal]

Appraiser #3, Richard Sherwood of Sarasota Gem Lab: I, SI2, 1.002ct. Medium flourescence. 8.9 x 5.51 x 3.09

It's done, no more guessing! I must say the transaction with Sarasota Gem Lab went very smoothly. Rich was always quick to reply to emails or voicemails, he evaluated the stone when he said he would, and he immediately forwarded the appraisal on to me. A very well run operation he has there in Sarasota. That said, I would highly recommend him, but I'm sure you can't go wrong with any of the other appraisers who give their time and "free" advice here and there. I also had Richard prepare a market analysis, so I now have a good idea of what it's worth if I were to trade it in. Thanks again to everyone who provided feedback/advice.

Andy

 

[Patty]

Thanks for the update, Andrew. I'm glad you got some answers!

 

[phoenixgirl]

Wow! Assuming that the third appraisal done with a loose stone is the most accurate, number two sure did a better job than number one!

I too had two different appraisals for the same stone, but in the mean time the stone had been switched from a platinum dinner ring to a yellow gold engagement ring.

#1 1.10 J-K SI1
#2 1.14 G-H VS2

It's certainly not a science when grading a set stone, but I'd hope that appraisers wouldn't estimate the stone as being 50% larger than it is (or 3 color grades for that matter).

 

[Andrew8527]

It's certainly not a science when grading a set stone, but I'd hope that appraisers wouldn't estimate the stone as being 50% larger than it is (or 3 color grades for that matter).

And she (#1) is a GG, no less. To any of the appraisers still following this thread, if you were #1 and found out how far off the mark you were, what would you do? Re-assess the stone, for an additional fee? For free? Or even refund the original appraisal? Is a margin of error such as this acceptable, in your opinion? I realize Richard had a luxury the first two didn't, but #2 wasn't far off the mark. Thanks in advance...

Andy

 

[aralight]

"(Cap''n Zales says, "Friends don''t let friends buy the $199 holiday special! Hardy-har!")"


For the most part you are correct but if you ask to see the "other" diamonds underneath the display and carry a 10X magnifier you can get lucky and find very nice diamond(s) for the sale price of $199. Of course you have to realize they tell you upfront the clarity is SI1, and that is the basic question I ask everybody-------Are the people looking at the diamond(s) on your (or your wife''s) necklace (or ring) qoing to view it with a 10X magnifier? The answer is no, All they see is a sparkling diamond pendant or ring.

After shopping around for a few days-----I got lucky----and so can you------I bought a 1/2 carot 3-Pendant round diamond stick pendant (necklace) with 14K box chain on a "1 DAY ONLY" sale (at Zxxxx''s), the display model''s clarity and color was horrible, more like a I2 than a SI1 as they state. Then I asked "do you have any others I can look at", the sales person replied "no that is the only one for sale at $199". I said "You don''t understand my question--Do you have any others of the exact same pendant for sale that is not on display?"

She said there may be a couple more under the cabinet----------"Well I want to see them"------------She pulled out 3 more from underneath the cabinet and after careful inspection, 1 of the 3 had just as many inclusions and was slightly yellow, just as the display model, one was OK but still ugly under 10X magnification-------------But one of them was beautiful. Crystal Clear with minimum inclusions and NO yellow color, I would say it was a VS2 Clarity with a H rating on the color. Regular price $499, with tax I paid $210 total. Don''t be afraid to ask to look at the others under the dispaly, bring your own magnifier---------they are only a few bucks. You may just find a good quality stone at a great sale price. Do you homework and know what you are talking about. The sales girl told me on the QT at the end of my purchase that she was going to buy that one if they did not sell out. She had already looked at them and knew this was the creme of the crop. The display ones in the case are the worse ones of the bunch, the nice ones are under the display------out of view of from the consumer. Good Luck.

$499-----1/2 CT. T.W. 3-STONE ROUND DIAMOND STICK PENDANT IN 14K GOLD ITEM #: 16011876 (Zxxxx.com)

sale price $199-------------bring your 10X magnifier and ask to see ALL OF Them.............

 

[Nicrez]

Andrew, as a GG student I have to say her skills seem worse than the worst student in my class. Honestly, If I had made a gross error, not only would I be very embarassed, but I would also redo the appraisal for free. That''s not only good business sense, but also a prfoessional courtesy earned by her own mistakes.

I am honestly most frightened by the number of things that were way off. Estimation is just that, but as a GG student at GIA I can sya that we are forced to grade over 150+ diamonds before we earn our degree. About 20 of those are mounted stones with closed settings that must be done visually. Even with no instruments, except for a microscope, our grading has been more accurate than the first appraiser''s!

It certainly could have been a calibration issue on her measurements, but the color being so off, and just LOOKING at that stone''s picture told me that the depth was MUCh smaller than she estimated. You can clearly see the bowtie, which indicates that the stone is either too shallow or too deep. In that setting, it is easy to see the ston''es profile, and even to a layperson, you can distinguish that the depth is NOT deep, but shallow, and that alone should have rung bells to her...

Perhaps she is a GG who is out of practice, or a recently graduated GG who still has not grasped the concepts? Just a thought, but from an I to and E-F, even I on my first day didn''t make that great of a mistake.... Did she use masterstones? Perhaps she took that long because she didn''t know what she was doing? For reference, a gemologist at a GIA lab takes about 10-15 minutes to grade a stone. Those stones are also viewed blindly by at least 5 other graders, each taking about 10-15 minutes each....

Frankly, I am frightened!