Two *very* different appraisals.....what to do..

[Andrew8527]

I've been given a ring to trade/sell towards a new engagement ring. Having absolutely no idea what I might expect to sell it for, I set out to get a few appraisals....and since I don't have the complete appraisals in front of me at the moment, I'll just cover the center stone..

Appraisal #1: E/F, SI2, 1.44 ct OVAL. Very fluorescent (I've been told this shouldn't really affect value though, but I'll explain why I included it below...) !! $11,xxx !!
Notes: Appraiser seemed to have good credentials, GIA (and other) certificates on the wall. She measured and remeasured the diamond a couple times. Took 30-40 minutes from start to finish, cost $50.

Appraisal #2: Solid H, SI3-I1, .94 ct OVAL. Slight fluorescence.
$5800 Uhhh, we have a bit of a discrepancy here.
Notes: I'm not sure of his credentials. He was very thrifty, done in 15 minutes. Measured once. Cost, $30. He said this would "officially" be called an I1 if sent to GIA?, FWIW. Then I ask him what I might expect to get for this ring if I sell (obviously not $5800)......he said he would probably pay $1200-1700 for the center stone, another few hundred for the mounting. I guess he would be classified as a wholesaler? His appraisal office was, of course, in the back of a small jewelry store.

I'm at a loss here. Now I do realize that not everyone is going to grade a diamond the same, and that measuring a stone is only an estimation. But they don't agree on anything--the discrepancy here is unacceptable, no? Even fluorescence, #1 says VERY and #2 says slight. Maybe they have different bulbs? Ok, so get ANOTHER appraisal, you might say. Well sure, I very well might have to do that but I'm losing faith here...

FWIW, neither of these appraisers were listed as jewelry stores. I found them in the yellow pages as "xxx Gem Lab."

Any thoughts? I've not gotten the complete appraisal from #2 yet (should be in the mail), but I do have #1 (with measurements of the center stone). I can provide those if they would be helpful.

Thanks very much in advance....

Andy

FOLLOW UP 10-11-04....see end of page 2

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

1. are any of them on the list here (link top right hand side of page)?
2. You probably need a second opinion - but please post the measurements here.
3. what sort of appraisal did you ask for from each person?

If one thought you were a seller and the first one thought you wanting to cover your butt for insurance - then you got what you might expect from wheeler dealer appraisers.

 

[Andrew8527]

1. No, and the only one in my state is nowhere near where I'm located.

2. Will do, at lunchtime.

3. Well I asked for insurance at both, but did mention that I was considering trading/selling. I thought I was getting independant appraisals, but soon realized when I showed up at each that they weren't so independent. (Hindsight's 20/20....next time I'll call to ask if they're affiliated). So I didn't want to walk in there and say "Ok, tell me realistically how much I could sell this for." Because for all I know they're seeing dollar signs, so they'll low-ball me to cover their own butt in case I should decide to sell to them. I neglected to even ask the #1 what she thought I might be able to sell it for, because before I even sat down she had already introduced me to "her" jeweler, if you know what I mean.

At any rate, whether or not I told them insurance vs. "I want to sell".....the fact remains that they stone characteristics are very different....agreed?

Thanks for the help Garry...

 

[reena]

well, i know nothing, but to me the fact that the two appraisals differ by almost HALF A CARAT for the stone's weight is very alarming. that's not exactly a subjective trait. im confused.

 

[laney]

Just a consumer here


Did the stone come with original paperwork? What did that say?


We had 2 apprasials done on my stone - and they were identical - but the $$ was a bit different. I think that is to be expected - but I agree with Reena - the weight being that different is strange.

I would think #2 was trying to get you to sell it to him...(as you have already deduced). It just sucks that these type of apprasiers are out there - and that we have to pay them for an opinion. Just my .02

 

[diamondlil]

This is an interesting thread I will certainly follow. Two such varied appraisals would have my antennae up.

You may consider sending your ring to one of the appraisers here for a third opinion. Please keep us posted.

DiamondLil

 

[Andrew8527]

"Did the stone come with original paperwork? What did that say?"

No original paperwork and no previous appraisal. Ring was actually purchased ~30 years ago, and they don't remember the diamond stats, though they think ~1 ct is about right.

At any rate, it would appear that a THIRD opinion is in order here. The ring will soon be traveling back to the Miami area, and it looks like Joseph Tenhagen comes highly recommended. So I suppose I should either send it off to one of the appraisers here or have it done in Miami.

The big discrepancy here is the weight though. I'm thinking before I trade/sell, the buyer is going to have to take the stone out to get an exact weight. So why not take it out now....? I've got access to a microbalance, if I could just have a jeweler take it out. It's not a difficult task is it? How much might I pay to have the stone taken out? Thanks again for the help, will keep you updated...

Andy

 

[Diamondsbybree]

I'm with Laney. I think he may want to purchase the stone for what HE would like to pay...

 

[denverappraiser]

Lots of issues here,

#1 does not, on the surface look too bad although we have no way of knowing if her observations are correct. Pay no attention to the valuation at the moment because it’s not the heart of the issue at hand. Read the fine print and see if you can figure out how she decided on that weight (probably estimated from dimensions which are included in the report) and that clarity (did she include a plot?). Call her up and discuss the matter.

If I have a client that comes in with a discrepancy like this, the first thing I do is check my measurements and my math to make sure there isn’t a simple problem like that. If I still agree with my findings, I then offer that the client can have the stone pulled and examined unmounted. They can have someone else do it or I will pull the stone, in their presence, weigh and examine it. If my weight estimation was off by more than 10%, I’ll pay for the pull, the reset and any repairs to the prongs that I may have caused in the process. If I was right, I charge for this second session and I’ll refer the client to a qualified to setter for the next step.

As you point out, your buyer is likely to want the stone unmounted anyway so you probably won’t even be interested in the reset. If the appraiser made a substantial error, they should be willing to revise the report at no additional cost and issue you an apology for wasting your time and emotional energy.

#2 is an offer to buy, not an appraisal. Consider it accordingly.

If, at the end of this, you are still unhappy with the conclusions made, look into the pricescope appraisal search feature for an independent appraiser. If there are none in your area, there are several of us that will work with out of state clients via registered mail.

Hold off on deciding what is a reasonable price until you’ve decided what, exactly, you have to sell.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[ame]

Id send it to one of the appraisers on here, fedex it or something, because Id definitely trust their judgement as they are completely impartial.

 

[blitz]

If you want to sell/trade the diamond, please tell the Gemologist/appraiser so that a report can be prepared for the appropriate purpose. Different valuations for different purposes. When I prepare an appraisal for "marketable cash value" I state different levels in which to sell: dealer, auction and consignment. I also state the retail replacement cost. It is not up to me to tell my client what they will realize if sold, but it is within the scope of my assignment to state options: the client can rely on to make an educated decision.

I am curious as to the weight differences.
What were the measurements?
Thank you,

 

[denverappraiser]

As Jennifer and Garry correctly point out, the valuation conclusion can be quite different depending on purpose of the appraisal and the type of information you are seeking. Your most important difference is in the description itself. An I1-H-0.94 is hardly the same thing as an SI2-E-1.44!

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[Andrew8527]

"Read the fine print and see if you can figure out how she decided on that weight (probably estimated from dimensions which are included in the report) and that clarity (did she include a plot?). Call her up and discuss the matter."

The weight she decided on by using a formula of some sort. I watched her as she referred to a chart while making calculations. No clarity plot included. Appraiser #2 did not refer to any formulas or charts (though he might have them memorized, who knows). Also, I didn't see him attempt a depth measurement. Maybe he did and I missed it or maybe he guessed. I suppose I'll find out when the full report comes in the mail.

"If I was right, I charge for this second session and I’ll refer the client to a qualified to setter for the next step."

Thanks for the input there, seems fair. Hey, I'll have no problem with her being right, after all, she thought it was 1.4ct!

"#2 is an offer to buy, not an appraisal. Consider it accordingly. Even though I didn't feel it was such at the time, the more I think about it the more you all are probably right. Although, I didn't walk in there asking for him to give me a quote. He (#2) asked what the appraisal was for, I said mainly insurance, but that I'm also curious because I'm considering trading/selling. It wasn't until after his appraisal that I flat out asked him what HE might give me.

At any rate, I do appreciate your thoughts. Hopefully I can get a third and completely independent opinion soon. Measurements to follow in a few hours....

 

[Andrew8527]

"If you want to sell/trade the diamond, please tell the Gemologist/appraiser so that a report can be prepared for the appropriate purpose. Different valuations for different purposes. When I prepare an appraisal for "marketable cash value" I state different levels in which to sell: dealer, auction and consignment. I also state the retail replacement cost. It is not up to me to tell my client what they will realize if sold, but it is within the scope of my assignment to state options: the client can rely on to make an educated decision."

I understand. A mistake on my part, but since I didn't feel these appraisers were truly "independent," I was afraid to reveal that fact (that my intention is to sell), only to have them give me a low-ball estimate to cover themselves or the jeweler that they're affiliated with.

So, how many independent appraisers are there here on the boards?

And how the heck do I pick one over the other?!

 

[strmrdr]

----------------
On 9/17/2004 12:03:38 PM Andrew8527 wrote:



So, how many independent appraisers are there here on the boards?

And how the heck do I pick one over the other?!
----------------

about 10 or so but some of them work for Dave at aga
Pick the closest one and save on shipping :}

 

[Todd07]

did you look for one in your area using the PS database

appraisers




You could also send it in to one of the appriasers that post regularly, but then you wouldn't be able to view it together and ask questions as easily.




David Atlas wrote the content on PS for appraisers Click here for more on the role of a professional appraiser and seems highly regarded.




Read the forum on Guerilla Gemology for other names

 

[Andrew8527]

We have dimensions...

[COLOR=ff0000]#1: 8.89 x 5.9 x 3.65 mm
[/COLOR]


[COLOR=FF0000]#2: 8.75 x 5.6 x 3.1 mm
[/COLOR]


Thanks all.

 

[dimonbob]

This is a typical problem in the jewelry appraisal industry.
ANYBODY can hang up a sign saying they appraise jewelry.
Most jewelers, even though not qualified will do an appraisal for you.
The appraisers that have posted on this thread so far are all trained appraisers. What I mean by trained is, they are Graduate Gemologist that have taken courses in appraisal theory and passed tests. For a country as large as the United States, there are very few qualified jewelry appraisers here.
If someone is just a Graduate Gemologist, that alone does not make them an appraiser. It is only a prerequisite to becoming an appraiser.
If anyone out there wants to become an appraiser, be prepared to do a lot of study and after you have made it you need to continue to study.
It can be a rewarding career!

 

[Andrew8527]

Measurements .............anybody? Thanks

 

[laney]

I think i'd let the experts say

But i looked them up real quick - looks like it defiantly should be over a carat - even number 2. Take a look on the price quote for ovals for 1-1.5 carats and you'll see a 1 carat is around 8.1-8.2 or so... 8.75 has to be bigger than #2's assesment.

Ok - I'll let someone more qualified respond..

 

[laney]

I was going to edit that "defiantly" to Definitely... but it kinda works that way too! lol!

 

[denverappraiser]

They both used the same forumla for calculating weight LxWxDx0.0062. They are so different because the measurements are so different. I still recommend going back to #1 and discuss the problem with her. Measuring the length to within 0.14mm isn't that hard. It's very likely a measurement error or perhaps a callibration problem with the tools. The problem is that you don't know which one made the error.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[Richard Sherwood]

That's a pretty big difference in measurements, particularly the depth.

Could be that a direct measurement on the depth is not possible because of the setting, and the appraisers were estimating the depth.

Pulling the diamond and having it weighed, measured, graded and appraised while loose will take a lot of mystery out of the situation. It's worth having a third opinion by a professional independent or objective appraiser done. The first two guys didn't cost you much, and were a good learning experience.

Tenhagen's appraisal will carry a lot of weight. Joe's a good appraiser, with a good rep.

I hear Denver Neil is pretty good too, if you can catch him sober.

 

[denverappraiser]

----------------
On 9/17/2004 8:08:24 PM Richard Sherwood wrote:


I hear Denver Neil is pretty good too, if you can catch him sober.
----------------

I go by 'Colorado Skinny' now. 42 pounds on Akins.

Are you back at home? Is home still there?

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[WinkHPD]

I am going to chime in here because I did not see this suggested. I just read quickly through this so perhaps I missed it.

If you want to sell the stone, it does not matter what appraiser 1 OR appraiser 2 say the stone is. Send it to GIA or AGS and get a proper report on it, then get an appraisal from someone who can look at the cert and tell you if he agrees or not.

The public will not care one HOOT in HECK what Joe Appraisor says, but they will give credence to the GIA/AGS report. Then they will try to beat up on you based on the report as it is very difficult for a private to get good pricing when selling a diamond. Without the report they will not be satisfied with a simple beating up, but will try to absolutely knock you silly and basically steal your stone. Even a good appraisal from a local will rarely help as much as having that report, so the money you spend on the report will come back to you.

Wink

 

[denverappraiser]

----------------
On 9/18/2004 1:07:54 PM Wink wrote:

I am going to chime in here because I did not see this suggested. I just read quickly through this so perhaps I missed it.

If you want to sell the stone, it does not matter what appraiser 1 OR appraiser 2 say the stone is. Send it to GIA or AGS and get a proper report on it, then get an appraisal from someone who can look at the cert and tell you if he agrees or not.

The public will not care one HOOT in HECK what Joe Appraisor says, but they will give credence to the GIA/AGS report. Then they will try to beat up on you based on the report as it is very difficult for a private to get good pricing when selling a diamond. Without the report they will not be satisfied with a simple beating up, but will try to absolutely knock you silly and basically steal your stone. Even a good appraisal from a local will rarely help as much as having that report, so the money you spend on the report will come back to you.

Wink----------------

If you're selling to a dealer, I kind of doubt you will get your moneys worth out of a GIA report. It's going to cost you something like $250 and take 2 months to get it. It may make the sales transaction less confrontational because you won't need to argue about the grade quite as much but, in the end, I don't believe they will raise the price by enough to cover the cost of the report. If you are selling to a consumer, and you have the time to spare, I agree with him in recommending this route. If you're selling to a consumer and don't have time, try buying a report from EGL-USA. In any of these cases you will need to have the stone pulled and for GIA and AGS, you will need to have a jeweler send in the stone in your behalf.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[elmo]

----------------
On 9/18/2004 4:32:57 PM denverappraiser wrote:

you will need to have the stone pulled and for GIA and AGS, you will need to have a jeweler send in the stone in your behalf
----------------

True for AGS, not so for GIA. Anyone can open an account with the GIA. There is a price break for folks in the business, not sure if it's anyone or if it's tied to volume though, so that could help save some money.

 

[denverappraiser]

----------------
On 9/18/2004 4:42:49 PM elmo wrote:

----------------
On 9/18/2004 4:32:57 PM denverappraiser wrote:

you will need to have the stone pulled and for GIA and AGS, you will need to have a jeweler send in the stone in your behalf
----------------

True for AGS, not so for GIA. Anyone can open an account with the GIA. There is a price break for folks in the business, not sure if it's anyone or if it's tied to volume though, so that could help save some money.----------------

On their site, GIA at least claims that they don't take work from consumers although I've never seen anyone try it. Have you tested this?

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[WinkHPD]

Neil,

GIA has two tiered pricing, one price for privates and another for the trade.

Any one can walk into their facility and have a stone graded, or mail it in. If this is not true today, then it was only a short time ago. I don't even try to keep tabs on what they do, but this is how it has been for many years.

I would respectfully dissagree with you only slightly. If our questor has a valid cert it will stop the lowgraders from getting the best of him. I think it is his best tool to keep from being taken advantage of, at least in knowing what he is selling, regardless of the price.

Wink

 

[elmo]

----------------
On 9/18/2004 10:45:11 PM denverappraiser wrote:

Have you tested this?
----------------

Yes.