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Two specific questions about jewelry insurance polices

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havernell

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I''ve been reading the archived threads about Chubb and Jewelers Mutual all afternoon and am left with two questions about the nitty-gritty details of the policies. I know that the best place to get these answers is from the companies themselves, but since it''s after business hours now, I figured I''d ask you all tonight in an attempt to satisfy some of my curiosity before I call tomorrow.

1. Question about Chubb:

Chubb''s policy states that "If the market value (before the loss) of an item lost or damaged in a covered loss is greater than the itemized amount listed on the policy, we will pay the market value up to 150% of the itemized coverage amount for the item."

My question is, how is market value determined by Chubb? What stats/info do they use to determine current market value on stones? The 150% replacement thing sounds nice, but it''s still up to them (not you) to determine how much the market has changed...


2. Question about Jewelers Mutual:

On their webpage Jewelers Mutual say that "You work with your preferred jeweler for repairs and replacements covered by the policy" rather than JM using their own supplier to get a replacement diamond (like other insurance companies do).

My question is, if your preferred jeweler has two stones that are "like kind" to your stone (say, a 1ct, H, SI1) and one is $4000 and the other is $5000 (for whatever reason- it''s Canadian, slightly better cut, etc). Your policy coverage is for $5000. Are you allowed to get whichever of the two stones you want at your jewelers as long as it is below $5000? Or, can JM force you to get the $4000 stone because it is still "like kind" to your original ring? Basically, can JM still dictate how much the replacement will cost (and therefore, what stone you must accept) even if you go through your own jeweler?

Thanks for any info you can share!
 

kev_800

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Jan 27, 2007
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Date: 2/8/2007 7:18:32 PM
Author:havernell
I''ve been reading the archived threads about Chubb and Jewelers Mutual all afternoon and am left with two questions about the nitty-gritty details of the policies. I know that the best place to get these answers is from the companies themselves, but since it''s after business hours now, I figured I''d ask you all tonight in an attempt to satisfy some of my curiosity before I call tomorrow.

1. Question about Chubb:

Chubb''s policy states that ''If the market value (before the loss) of an item lost or damaged in a covered loss is greater than the itemized amount listed on the policy, we will pay the market value up to 150% of the itemized coverage amount for the item.''

My question is, how is market value determined by Chubb? What stats/info do they use to determine current market value on stones? The 150% replacement thing sounds nice, but it''s still up to them (not you) to determine how much the market has changed...


2. Question about Jewelers Mutual:

On their webpage Jewelers Mutual say that ''You work with your preferred jeweler for repairs and replacements covered by the policy'' rather than JM using their own supplier to get a replacement diamond (like other insurance companies do).

My question is, if your preferred jeweler has two stones that are ''like kind'' to your stone (say, a 1ct, H, SI1) and one is $4000 and the other is $5000 (for whatever reason- it''s Canadian, slightly better cut, etc). Your policy coverage is for $5000. Are you allowed to get whichever of the two stones you want at your jewelers as long as it is below $5000? Or, can JM force you to get the $4000 stone because it is still ''like kind'' to your original ring? Basically, can JM still dictate how much the replacement will cost (and therefore, what stone you must accept) even if you go through your own jeweler?

Thanks for any info you can share!
You''ll want to speak to an agent. Here is the Chubb agent search form:
http://www.chubb.com/findagent/findagent_form.html

the 150% value thing essentially means that even though you itemized a piece of jewelry for an amount below the replacement cost, they will still give you enough money to replace it, provided the replacement cost is not more than 150% of the itemized value. This would come up in a situation where you buy a gold diamond ring in 1985, get it appraised in 1985, but loose it in 2007. The value of the ring in 1985 as appraised very well may not get you another identical ring in 2007... so that clause is in there to give you a little wiggle room. Don''t expect to make money by losing your jewelry :)
 

havernell

Brilliant_Rock
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Thanks for replying and for supplying the Chubb website. However, perhaps I wasn't clear about my question because I am asking something slightly different from what you answered. Let me try again...

I do understand that the 150% is for wiggle room for the value of diamonds going up over time (i.e. the 1985 diamond not being the same as a 2007 diamond).

But my question is, if your 1985 diamond is a one carat, H SI1 diamond, how do they determine the current market value for a similar stone now? If you do a search for 1ct H SI1 diamonds, you'll find a range of prices. Just doing a quick search with the "pricescope your diamond tool" above there are some 1ct H SI1 stones for $2,600 and others for over $5000.

So, does Chubb say $2600 is the current market value for 1ct H SI1s? Do they say $5,300 is the market value for 1ct H SI1s? Somewhere in between? With the range of different prices, how is the current market value determined?

Any idea?
 

diamondseeker2006

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Hmmm, I am glad this came up since I am hopefully about to change to Chubb. That would seem to me to mean that I can insure my ring for the purchase price rather than an inflated "appraisal" amount considering Chubb builds in some inflation protection anyway.

Is that correct thinking?
 

FireGoddess

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Date: 2/8/2007 7:42:38 PM
Author: havernell

So, does Chubb say $2600 is the current market value for 1ct H SI1s? Do they say $5,300 is the market value for 1ct H SI1s? With the range of different prices, how is the current market value determined?

Any idea?
Anyone here could have an idea. The only one who is going to give you the correct answer for Chubb is...Chubb.

Your questions are specific enough to the policies that I would only take information directly from the insurance companies themselves. If you get an answer from us, and it is the wrong one, will they honor that on your policy? No. Ask them.


ETA: I see you are looking for answers now. Sorry I missed that the first read. But I'm surprised no one is available to take your call? The night I set up my ering insurance policy, I called rather late in the evening!
 

Odinsmom

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 30, 2003
Messages
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I have a Valuable Articles Policy with Chubb for my jewelry. When I wrote the policy, I had a the description on the declarations page state all the diamond statistics like weight, color, etc that were on the grading report but made sure it also stated it was a 'A Cut Above' diamond. This way, in the event of a loss, Chubb will determine the value based on replacing with another ACA stone. People here on Pricescope advised doing this. By the wat, I had a loss on the Chubb policy and they were great to work with. No questions asked, no hoops to jump through, they just write you a check.

Edited to add:
When I had a loss with Chubb (chipped diamond), I had to have a jeweler submit documentation of the replacement cost of the damaged diamond. I guess that's how they determine what amount they will pay out. I only had to submit one replacement cost document.
 

havernell

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Date: 2/8/2007 7:45:18 PM
Author: FireGoddess

Anyone here could have an idea. The only one who is going to give you the correct answer for Chubb is...Chubb.

Your questions are specific enough to the policies that I would only take information directly from the insurance companies themselves. If you get an answer from us, and it is the wrong one, will they honor that on your policy? No. Ask them.


ETA: I see you are looking for answers now. Sorry I missed that the first read. But I'm surprised no one is available to take your call? The night I set up my ering insurance policy, I called rather late in the evening!
Thanks FireGoddess,

Oh, I didn't realize they would be taking calls at night... I just assumed normal business hours applied!

Well, even if the question is too specific to answer here, at least they are good questions for others to keep in mind as they are shopping for ring insurance. So, I'll just consider this a public service announcement of sorts!



Also thank you Odinsmom for your info- I'll have to ask Chubb if they always go with a local jewelers stated price to determine "value" or if there are other ways as well. Interesting to know!
 

ceylonfan

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Chubb quoted me 1k per year to insure a 25k diamond e-ring. Does that sound right or a bit high?
 

diamondseeker2006

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Date: 2/9/2007 10:16:49 AM
Author: ceylonfan
Chubb quoted me 1k per year to insure a 25k diamond e-ring. Does that sound right or a bit high?
Unbelievably high, unless you live in some major crime area! I am getting a quote today and will tell you my amount since the total of the two items is $24,000-25,000. I am thinking no more than $300 a year for mine based on the earlier estimate they gave me.
 

Odinsmom

Rough_Rock
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Your quote is high. My policy with Chubb is $477.00 per year to insure $37,000 worth of jewelry.
 

RockDoc

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Date: 2/9/2007 10:16:49 AM
Author: ceylonfan
Chubb quoted me 1k per year to insure a 25k diamond e-ring. Does that sound right or a bit high?
That works out to about 4 %. Most of the rates for Chubb are less expensive.

If you are in LA or Brooklyn - that rate COULD be possible. As those two areas are among the hghest risk areas in the US.
Also certain professons are rated higher. If you''re a performer, rockstar etc. a lot of companies won''t insure you at all.


Chubb rates in low crime areas can be around 1% with the average being 1.8- 2.3%, from my experience with people''s policies.

Rockdoc
 

RockDoc

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I believe that Chubb''s Market Value comes in to play if the cost for you to find another item ( at your choice of seller ) is more than the original stated amount.

Chubb''s policy is an AS AGREED or STATED VALUE type policy, rather than one that is a replacement policy. As such, you are a justifiable expectation to receive the amount you insured it for.

I think their general approach to settling a claim is to issue the check for the amount you insured it for, and if a replacement, even if slightly better is more, once the difference is documented, they will then pay any difference in your cost.

Hope this helps.

Rockdoc
 

analyticangel

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Jan 27, 2007
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I tried this week to get insurance on my ring ( $17,500) policy through Mike Sauer at Plastridge Agency as I heard about them through Pricescope.
He called me today and told me all three policies he tried to write were turned down...........
Claims Chubb is moving away from, single policy jewelry wants to write jewelry policies for people who have auto or home policies with them

Then get this , I live in Fla where Chubb is not writing homeowners in my area anyway and the cars would have to be valued at as "over 35,000.00 for the to consider a policy



Oh well

So.........save your energy calling them
 

elle

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Diamondseeker & Odinsmom - You guys have great rates! In TX, I''m paying about 2% of the insured value.

Rockdoc - Is there any room for negotiation on the premium rates? Or is it pre-determined by location? Would you advise insuring based on appraised value or actual sale price? Thanks!
 

RockDoc

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Most premium quotes are not negotiable. They are set by the home office, filed with the Insurance Dept in your state.


This is all is dependent on the type of policy you have as well.

There COULD be some negotiation in very high value policies, especially where there are advanced security alarms / safes or if you aren''t wearing the jewelry everyday, in policies that require keeping the valuables in a bank safe deposit box, and only taking them out occasionally, but then you have to tell the insurance company how long they will be out of the safe deposit box. You get a low rate when in the bank and pay a higher rate only for the times the pieces are kept outside the bank.

How much or which value to use is a case by case decision, depending on they type of policy and how the insurance company settles its claims.

Rockdoc
 

denverappraiser

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You asked an important question about JM and other replacement type policies:


How is ‘like kind and quality determined?’


When you file a claim with this type of policy, the very fist, and often last, place they will look is to the appraisal that YOU submitted when you wrote the policy. That will produce a description of what the item was. They will ask you what your preferences are for jeweler and they will make some suggestions based on their list of commercial policyholders. In the end, you pick the jeweler. This description will be presented to your chosen jeweler and the jeweler will be asked to make an estimate to provide one like the description.


If the company feels that the jeweler is out of line, they’ll ring them up and argue the point. The companies hire some fairly savvy people and they really do know what things cost. There may be a simple misunderstanding of what’s required. If the original description is inadequate, they will try to use other information available and they will try to make sensible guesses. What other information? They’ll ask you. They’ll ask for the original paperwork like the sales receipt that may say more. They’ll call up the manufacturer and ask them what sorts of materials they use and how much THEY would charge to replace it. They’ll ask for photographs of you wearing the item so that they have at least something to work with. Anything you can provide will be helpful. The objective here is to narrow down the description so that both you and they understand what it is that they are obligated to buy.


OK, so what about options that weren’t in the original? Things like Canadian certificates or better cutting in your example. As you correctly point out, 1.00cts, SI1/G diamonds don’t all look or cost the same. These things are all part of the ‘like kind and quality’. If they can’t get some reason to believe that the stone you lost was documented as Canadian, they are not required to get you one that is. Most aren’t, and it’s a reasonable assumption that your unknown stone probably wasn’t either. Premium cutting? Same thing. If you can’t prove it, you probably won’t get it. What you’ll get is a set of assumptions about that cutting that the company considers ‘reasonable’. Designer branding, extended warranties, and many other non-gemological properties that add (or reduce) the value of your item.


The solution is in the appraisal. As soon as you present it to the insurance company, it becomes part of a legal contract between you and the company. Read it. The description should be sufficient that the company can base a replacement entirely on the contents of the report and, if they meet the description, this should be to your satisfaction. It should list the manufacture, it should cut grade the stone, it should mention the warranties. It should have photographs, measurements, scans of certificates and anything else that is going to be necessary to do the replacement quickly and accurately. If it’s important to you that it should be considered in the replacement , it should be in the appraisal.


In most markets, JM is half or less the price of Chubb for similar declared value but, as you well know, it’s not the same sort of insurance. In shopping for insurance it’s important to consider what your requirements are in order to make the best decision. The cheapest isn’t always the right choice but then neither is the declared value type policy. Talk to your agent to make sure that what you are being offered is what you want.


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

rjdodd

Shiny_Rock
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Messages
108
So what about if I have an appraisal, and separately have sets of images supplied by the stone vendor / ring maker. Should all those photos be included too, or will they be ignored by the insurance company because they were not part of the appraisal?
 

denverappraiser

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The insurance companies will generally accept whatever you give them although they will always have an underwriting department that has the option of refusing your application if they want. By all means, bury them in information.


Both consumers and jewelers are often confused when the insurance company requests an appraisal and this leads to tremendous abuses of the process. The company is looking for several things when they ask you to get it appraised:


1) Evidence that the item actually exists, that you at least claim to own it and that it’s in reasonable condition as of a particular date.
2) A description that can be used as a roadmap for replacement in case of a loss.
3) A maximum limit of liability that can be used to set your premium.

None of these needs an independent appraiser and if the jeweler provides you reasonable documentation at the point of sale, they will be fine if you give them that.


The ‘best’ solution is to show these documents to your appraiser during your session and discuss with them whether it is best to include them in the report. Writing a report that covers the bases of the situation is WAY harder than people generally assume. In most cases, consumers have a very different set of reasons for why they want an appraisal. Note, for example, that none of these has anything to do with whether you got a ‘good deal’. For the most part they aren’t interested in craftsmanship or even accuracy of grading. Replacing a generic IGI SI1/G with a declared value at double the transaction price and triple their expected replacement cost is far easier than replacing the stones that are often discussed here and the get to collect double the premiums for assuming a lower risk. Of course they don''t complain.


The insurance companies aren’t the ones who benefit by good documentation, it’s consumers.


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 2/24/2007 9:04:11 AM
Author: denverappraiser

You asked an important question about JM and other replacement type policies:



How is ‘like kind and quality determined?’



When you file a claim with this type of policy, the very fist, and often last, place they will look is to the appraisal that YOU submitted when you wrote the policy. That will produce a description of what the item was. They will ask you what your preferences are for jeweler and they will make some suggestions based on their list of commercial policyholders. In the end, you pick the jeweler. This description will be presented to your chosen jeweler and the jeweler will be asked to make an estimate to provide one like the description.


:::snip:::



Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
And you can choose whomever you''d like? I bought my stone from BN and I love it - but it was pure serendipity.... if I were to replace it I would want mark from erd to find me one just like it and I wouldn''t trust anyone else to be able to do so since it is a fairly odd stone...

Also... why is it that chubb seems to be more popular on PS amongst consumers but jewelers mutual seems to be the one the jewelers and appraisers I''ve spoken with tend to recommend?
 

RockDoc

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What do I do if I have a loss?
If your insured jewelry is damaged, lost or stolen, call Jewelers Mutual at 888-884-2424 and a Personal Jewelry Insurance claim representative will give you complete instructions. If you prefer, you can report your claim through our web site. In addition, if your jewelry was stolen or you suspect it was stolen, you should report it to the police. In most instances, you will return to the jeweler who appraised your jewelry and/or performs your periodic inspections to have the jewelry repaired or replaced.


The above is a paste from the Jewelers'' Mutual Website..........

If an independent appraiser ( WHO DOES NOT SELL OR REPLACE ITEMS APPRAISED ) did the appraisal, JM''s preference is to go to the "referring source" to purchase the replacement. If a jeweler that sold you the item refers you, then JM goes back to them.

In many cases, the insured is happy going back to their previous seller, and I do believe that if you prefer someone else to replace the article, JM will agree to that. However, JM does have a schedule of how much over cost they will pay out on a claim. I haven''t referred anyone to them, so I do not know the details, but I am assuming that JM would pay out only the amount that they pay over the cost of the item. I''m not saying this is unacceptable, but in the event the place you want to replace the item is more costly than the referring source JM would probably only pay that cost.

For jewelers, referring to JM is building in a potential sale in the future. It is possible that if you want a different seller to do the actual replacing, JM would allow that, but probably the best suggestion here is to ask JM what their policy is relevant to a claim procedure in the event you wish someone other than the seller to do the replacing.

Read what your policy says, and contact JM for specific answers that concern you.

It is not my intend here to be negative, it is just that I prefer the freedom of choice of how I want the item replaced, with check in hand, and going to where I want to get the new item. JM is probably very good providing you want the seller to replace the item.

Rockdoc
 

diamondseeker2006

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I can''t speak for other states, but I did get a Chubb stand-alone policy this month. The coverage was for $24,000 and the premium was $277. I have not yet received the policy or the bill, however.
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 2/24/2007 12:28:31 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I can''t speak for other states, but I did get a Chubb stand-alone policy this month. The coverage was for $24,000 and the premium was $277. I have not yet received the policy or the bill, however.
I did the JM quote online and I think it was 300 for 25k without a deductable. But I''d probably get a policy with a deductable.
 

sfritz

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Hi, Rockdoc and others following this thread about jewelry insurance claims. To address Rockdoc''s comment, with a Personal Jewelry Insurance policy from Jewelers Mutual, you go to the jeweler of your choice. This may be the jeweler you used when you purchased the item, but we do not require that.

We ask our insured which jeweler he or she prefers. We contact the jeweler and provide the insurance appraisal or report that was submitted to us to assure that the item is repaired or replaced based on the details of that document. We pay the jeweler directly for the transactions.

As you noted, we offer a repair or replacement policy, which permits us to keep our premiums low.

I hope that helps.

Sue Fritz
Jewelers Mutual Insurance Company
 

RockDoc

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Hi Sue

Wouldn''t it be a good alternative for JM to offer an Stated Value policy as well as the replacement one?


How about an inflation guard endorsement?


This way you''d have all the bases covered....

Rockdoc
 

denverappraiser

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Date: 2/24/2007 11:27:07 AM
Author: Cehrabehra

And you can choose whomever you''d like? I bought my stone from BN and I love it - but it was pure serendipity.... if I were to replace it I would want mark from erd to find me one just like it and I wouldn''t trust anyone else to be able to do so since it is a fairly odd stone...

Also... why is it that chubb seems to be more popular on PS amongst consumers but jewelers mutual seems to be the one the jewelers and appraisers I''ve spoken with tend to recommend?

Within reason, yes you can get your replacement wherever you like although different companies may have different rules for what constitutes as being within reason.


Why do people here like Chubb? Cash!


Many PSers are very aggressive shoppers with very strong preferences for things that most of the world considers to be pretty arcane. They have found that most stores don’t offer exactly what they want and they fear either being forced by the fine print in the insurance contract to buy an inferior item from a less than acceptable vendor or into a battle with the jeweler to get the job done right.


Why do people use JM? Money! In most places, Chubb is considerably more expensive than a JM policy with similar limits of coverage and similar payouts in the case of a loss. In some cases it’s as much as triple. JM is also much easier to buy from. Chubb needs a new web programmer. Barely a week goes by without a question from a newbie who can’t figure out how to buy a Chubb policy. I hate to call that dumb, but it sure seems that way to me.


Many people choose to go with their homeowners company because they already have an established relationship with them. They don’t want another bill, they don’t want to learn the details of a new policy and they are happy with the products they are already receiving. It’s fast, it’s easy, it’s reasonably priced (usually) and it works. Why mess with success?


All of these are fine reasons and all can be correct. It’s not a one-size-fits-all world. What’s best for one customer may not be the best for the next.


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

litebrite

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Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
463
Diamondseeker, can you tell me why you are switching and what company you are switching from? I am trying to find a policy for my first stone and ring. (Feel free to PM or email me as well; I couldn''t figure out how to PM you because I am still a muddled newb.)

I agree with denverappraiser that Chubb''s website is very clunky and uninformative, esp. for the first time insurance buyer who may be easily intimidated by the whole process.

Sue, do you recommend that PSers submit our applications to you directly, and what if we forgot to have the appraiser take a photograph and it''s a loose stone that will go into a setting? Can we add those into the policy? Also, do you recommend separate photos for the loose diamond and then when it is set? Lastly, can the custom jeweler take photos of the stone in its setting and submit it as part of his/her appraisal of the setting? Any other PSers have this experience and what did you do?

Sorry for all my questions and thanks for your patience.
 

sfritz

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Litebrite asked: Sue, do you recommend that PSers submit our applications to you directly, and what if we forgot to have the appraiser take a photograph and it''s a loose stone that will go into a setting? Can we add those into the policy? Also, do you recommend separate photos for the loose diamond and then when it is set? Lastly, can the custom jeweler take photos of the stone in its setting and submit it as part of his/her appraisal of the setting? Any other PSers have this experience and what did you do?
---------------
It would be best if you sent your application directly to the company. If you use the online application at insureyourjewelry.com, the application will go directly to our Personal Jewelry Department. You can email, fax, or mail the insurance appraisal/report and photos. Our fax is (920) 725-9401. The mailing address is Personal Jewelry Insurance at Jewelers Mutual Insurance Company PO Box 468 Neenah, WI 54957-0468 You can reach our staff at [email protected] or (888) 884-2424.

While Jewelers Mutual does not require photos, including photos with your appraisal benefits the insurer and the customer. You can send any or all of them to the contact information above, but be sure to include your name, policy number if available, and telephone number so we can attach the information to the correct policy.

Sue Fritz
Jewelers Mutual

 

sfritz

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 22, 2003
Messages
74

Rockdoc asked: Wouldn''t it be a good alternative for JM to offer an Stated Value policy as well as the replacement one?How about an inflation guard endorsement?



---------------
Jewelers Mutual does offer an agreed value policy on occasion, such as when the item is difficult to replace. We have investigated an inflation guard endorsement in the past and may considerthat option again. We appreciate feedback from the Pricescope forum and are always looking for ways to iomprove our products.

Sue Fritz
Jewelers Mutual


 

RockDoc

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Date: 2/28/2007 11:28:27 AM
Author: Sue Fritz

Rockdoc asked: Wouldn''t it be a good alternative for JM to offer an Stated Value policy as well as the replacement one?How about an inflation guard endorsement?




---------------
Jewelers Mutual does offer an agreed value policy on occasion, such as when the item is difficult to replace. We have investigated an inflation guard endorsement in the past and may considerthat option again. We appreciate feedback from the Pricescope forum and are always looking for ways to iomprove our products.

Sue Fritz
Jewelers Mutual



Thank you, Sue.....

With Chubb being almost the "only game in town", consumers might really want an alternative choice, and a way to see if they can save premiums.

Inflation guard protections similar to Chubb''s would be a welcome product for those on PS.

Hope you consider and implement this.

Rockdoc
 
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