Trying again. Possible OEC and question.

[elmo]

Date: 9/4/2008 12:26:05 PM
Author: Al Gilbertson

If this is really the noted author and diamond guru Al Gilbertson, we are very lucky to have you as a participant here! Welcome aboard! (On the same order as Dick Hughes spending a year or so here a while back.) Cool.

 

[diagem]

Date: 9/4/2008 10:35:38 AM
Author: Al Gilbertson
The crown facet style appears to be rounded Old English Star cut (see Tillander’s book for an example) and the pavilion seems to be some variation of a standard round—although from the picture the pavilion facets are hard to see. Be very careful about the terms OEC and transitional—they have wide meanings in the trade.
I would have an expert look at the ring to determine what the stones are. The only time I have seen this facet combination on a gem, the stones have been glass. The accent stone also appear suspicious in the photo.

Al Gilbertsonhttps://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/trying-again-possible-oec-and-question.94240/

I agree..., I can''t remember seeing a Diamond cut in this fashion previously...
Thats why you see the dark contrast around the table where the star facets are supposed to be...

Ellen..., can you take a macro picture of the facet alignments or any chips in the material?

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Yeah, does look a little funny, doesn''t it?

Lotta "see thru" effect, and the workmanship looks a little funky too. The bottom shot sure doesn''t look like what you''d expect on a diamond ring. Looks more like sterling silver or base metal, as somebody mentioned before.

I think the chances are fair to middling you''ve got a pretty costume jewelry ring there.

 

[LGK]

Oh duh. Yes. Now that you mention it I can see that the faceting is unusual from the side shots. Very good old rhinestones, like antique Eisenberg jewelry, has that type of faceting on the crown- no wonder the pattern is so quirky looking. Interesting! Never seen an antique diamond cut like that before. Cool!

Supposing it might be glass, the pavilion would need to be silvered or fully enclosed with silver metal (like it is) to really get it to look like a diamond.

 

[Ellen]

Ok, Al got my curiosity up, and I had to go to the bank anyway, so I popped in the jewelers.

Al gets the "most astute new poster" award, it''s fake.

To be honest, I thought it looked different, but since I have seen so few real old cut diamonds up close and personal, I didn''t think a whole lot about it. (and I did think the setting/metal looked cheap) And to be honest again, I''m kinda glad it''s not. I know many of you like the ring style, but I personally didn''t. So that would have either meant wearing something I wasn''t crazy about, or the expense of changing it. I just really hope someone didn''t pay more for it than they should have.

Thank you all again, this turned out to be a great educational thread!!

 

[diagem]

Date: 9/4/2008 1:58:58 PM
Author: Ellen
Ok, Al got my curiosity up, and I had to go to the bank anyway, so I popped in the jewelers.

Al gets the ''most astute new poster'' award, it''s fake.

To be honest, I thought it looked different, but since I have seen so few real old cut diamonds up close and personal, I didn''t think a whole lot about it. (and I did think the setting/metal looked cheap) And to be honest again, I''m kinda glad it''s not. I know many of you like the ring style, but I personally didn''t. So that would have either meant wearing something I wasn''t crazy about, or the expense of changing it. I just really hope someone didn''t pay more for it than they should have.

Thank you all again, this turned out to be a great educational thread!!

Ellen..., dont under estimate old-antique custom jewelry..., some pieces are well sought after by connoisseurs...
Even auction houses like Christies etc..., put some on the auction and where surprised at the value some went for...

It still is a pretty piece!

 

[Ellen]

Date: 9/4/2008 2:04:36 PM
Author: DiaGem
Ellen..., dont under estimate old-antique custom jewelry..., some pieces are well sought after by connoisseurs...
Even auction houses like Christies etc..., put some on the auction and where surprised at the value some went for...

It still is a pretty piece!

Thanks for the info Diagem. I''m going to let my sister have it.

 

[glitterata]

Lucky sis!

 

[:)]

Wow! I couldn't find a jaw dropping emotie so

(Sherlock Holmes!) will have to do for both Al and decolady! Looks like they have been around for a while but have saved their comments for when they can really bowl us over!
I didn't comment on the cut b/c I found the cut interesting, but couldn't really place it. I was coming back to see what was decided. This is really educational - El I am so glad you posted it!!!

ETA: Richard gets a Sherlock too as he suspected it too!

 

[LGK]

Yeah. That''s a pretty rare piece you have. Most costume jewelry was pretty obviously costume and clearly not meant to fool anyone. I''ve never, in the 10 years I have worked with antiques every day at the antique mall, seen a piece like it, and we get a *lot* of costume jewelry. Brooches of like quality, yes, fairly frequently. But never a ring that is so close in appearance to the real deal. All the rhinestone rings I''ve seen have been very obviously costume and meant to be. Yours isn''t like that. Glad you updated & let us know, very intereseting. Go Al for noticing that lack of star facet thing.

Date: 9/4/2008 2:11:54 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 9/4/2008 2:04:36 PM
Author: DiaGem
Ellen..., dont under estimate old-antique custom jewelry..., some pieces are well sought after by connoisseurs...
Even auction houses like Christies etc..., put some on the auction and where surprised at the value some went for...

It still is a pretty piece!

Thanks for the info Diagem. I''m going to let my sister have it.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 9/4/2008 2:38:11 PM
Author:
Wow! I couldn''t find a jaw dropping emotie so

(Sherlock Holmes!) will have to do for both Al and decolady! Looks like they have been around for a while but have saved their comments for when they can really bowl us over!
I didn''t comment on the cut b/c I found the cut interesting, but couldn''t really place it. I was coming back to see what was decided. This is really educational - El I am so glad you posted it!!!

ETA: Richard gets a Sherlock too as he suspected it too!

Yes. I didn''t mean to slight anyone, I just gave the credit to Al since he mentioned it first.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 9/4/2008 2:41:42 PM
Author: LittleGreyKitten
Yeah. That''s a pretty rare piece you have. Most costume jewelry was pretty obviously costume and clearly not meant to fool anyone. I''ve never, in the 10 years I have worked with antiques every day at the antique mall, seen a piece like it, and we get a *lot* of costume jewelry. Brooches of like quality, yes, fairly frequently. But never a ring that is so close in appearance to the real deal. All the rhinestone rings I''ve seen have been very obviously costume and meant to be. Yours isn''t like that. Glad you updated & let us know, very intereseting. Go Al for noticing that lack of star facet thing.

How interesting!

 

[Serg]

Date: 9/4/2008 10:35:38 AM
Author: Al Gilbertson
The crown facet style appears to be rounded Old English Star cut (see Tillander’s book for an example) and the pavilion seems to be some variation of a standard round—although from the picture the pavilion facets are hard to see. Be very careful about the terms OEC and transitional—they have wide meanings in the trade.
I would have an expert look at the ring to determine what the stones are. The only time I have seen this facet combination on a gem, the stones have been glass. The accent stone also appear suspicious in the photo.

Al Gilbertsonhttps://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/trying-again-possible-oec-and-question.94240/

Hi Al,

re:The crown facet style appears to be rounded Old English Star cut (see Tillander’s book for an example)

Could you please publish here the drawing of Old English Star cut ?

 

[diagem]

Date: 9/4/2008 4:22:36 PM
Author: Serg

Date: 9/4/2008 10:35:38 AM
Author: Al Gilbertson
The crown facet style appears to be rounded Old English Star cut (see Tillander’s book for an example) and the pavilion seems to be some variation of a standard round—although from the picture the pavilion facets are hard to see. Be very careful about the terms OEC and transitional—they have wide meanings in the trade.
I would have an expert look at the ring to determine what the stones are. The only time I have seen this facet combination on a gem, the stones have been glass. The accent stone also appear suspicious in the photo.

Al Gilbertsonhttps://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/trying-again-possible-oec-and-question.94240/

Hi Al,

re:The crown facet style appears to be rounded Old English Star cut (see Tillander’s book for an example)

Could you please publish here the drawing of Old English Star cut ?

Hi Serg,

I am not Al..., but will try to post the sketch..., its not a great image but I am sure you will understand...
Its from the book "Diamond Cutting" by Basil Watermeyer.

 

[decolady]

I lurk more often than not.. but I have some suprises comming up

I actually meant to say it sooner but I felt bad.. no one wants to be told something is not real

It's such a pretty ring after all.

 

[:)]

Date: 9/4/2008 8:52:39 PM
Author: decolady
I lurk more often than not.. but I have some suprises comming up

I actually meant to say it sooner but I felt bad.. no one wants to be told something is not real

It''s such a pretty ring after all.

I understand - I would have felt bad to say that if I suspected it too. Luckily Ellen is a tough cookie and likes learning!
I am anxiously awaiting any surprises you have for us, especially if you continue to drop shockers like the one earlier today!
(Holy Moly I was impressed with the comment about the underside of the ring!)

 

[Serg]

Diagem,
Thanks . I will check it in weekend. I do not believe what black ring on Ellen is Leakage.( It is looks like NeilHead)

 

[Ellen]

Date: 9/4/2008 8:52:39 PM
Author: decolady
I lurk more often than not.. but I have some suprises comming up

I actually meant to say it sooner but I felt bad.. no one wants to be told something is not real

It''s such a pretty ring after all.

Aw, that was very thoughtful of you.

But as said, I love to learn, and I''d much rather have the the truth. The only thing that really upsets me is the thought that my aunt might have paid more than she should have. She certainly had the money to afford real diamonds. Do you know if costume jewelry was routinely sold as such, or passed off as something more?

And I thought the covering on the bottom of the "diamond" was, different, but assumed it was because it was so deep. What I thought was odder was the metal covering over the "melee", as they wouldn''t be deep, and it would just make it much harder to clean the ring.

At any rate, mystery solved, we know what kind of "diamond" it is!

And thank you again decolady, I can''t wait to see what you have!

 

[diagem]

Date: 9/5/2008 7:23:01 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 9/4/2008 8:52:39 PM
Author: decolady
I lurk more often than not.. but I have some suprises comming up

I actually meant to say it sooner but I felt bad.. no one wants to be told something is not real

It''s such a pretty ring after all.

Aw, that was very thoughtful of you.

But as said, I love to learn, and I''d much rather have the the truth. The only thing that really upsets me is the thought that my aunt might have paid more than she should have. She certainly had the money to afford real diamonds. Do you know if costume jewelry was routinely sold as such, or passed off as something more?

And I thought the covering on the bottom of the ''diamond'' was, different, but assumed it was because it was so deep. What I thought was odder was the metal covering over the ''melee'', as they wouldn''t be deep, and it would just make it much harder to clean the ring.

At any rate, mystery solved, we know what kind of ''diamond'' it is!

And thank you again decolady, I can''t wait to see what you have!

Ellen, do you know approx. what year/era this ring is from?
And from what part of the world geographically?

 

[Ellen]

Date: 9/5/2008 8:16:54 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 9/5/2008 7:23:01 AM
Author: Ellen

Aw, that was very thoughtful of you.

But as said, I love to learn, and I'd much rather have the the truth. The only thing that really upsets me is the thought that my aunt might have paid more than she should have. She certainly had the money to afford real diamonds. Do you know if costume jewelry was routinely sold as such, or passed off as something more?

And I thought the covering on the bottom of the 'diamond' was, different, but assumed it was because it was so deep. What I thought was odder was the metal covering over the 'melee', as they wouldn't be deep, and it would just make it much harder to clean the ring.

At any rate, mystery solved, we know what kind of 'diamond' it is!

And thank you again decolady, I can't wait to see what you have!

Ellen, do you know approx. what year/era this ring is from?
And from what part of the world geographically?

I don't Diagem, but I can ask my mom. The only trouble with that is, her memory is failing a bit, so I'm not sure the answer I get will be the correct one.

I "think" it belonged to my gandmother's sister. She died before I was born (fairly young), and I'm 48. How long she had it I don't know. I don't have any idea where she purchased it from either. I'll see what my mom says.

 

[diagem]

Date: 9/5/2008 8:41:08 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 9/5/2008 8:16:54 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 9/5/2008 7:23:01 AM
Author: Ellen

Aw, that was very thoughtful of you.

But as said, I love to learn, and I''d much rather have the the truth. The only thing that really upsets me is the thought that my aunt might have paid more than she should have. She certainly had the money to afford real diamonds. Do you know if costume jewelry was routinely sold as such, or passed off as something more?

And I thought the covering on the bottom of the ''diamond'' was, different, but assumed it was because it was so deep. What I thought was odder was the metal covering over the ''melee'', as they wouldn''t be deep, and it would just make it much harder to clean the ring.

At any rate, mystery solved, we know what kind of ''diamond'' it is!

And thank you again decolady, I can''t wait to see what you have!

Ellen, do you know approx. what year/era this ring is from?
And from what part of the world geographically?

I don''t Diagem, but I can ask my mom. The only trouble with that is, her memory is failing a bit, so I''m not sure the answer I get will be the correct one.

I ''think'' it belonged to my gandmother''s sister. She died before I was born (fairly young), and I''m 48. How long she had it I don''t know. I don''t have any idea where she purchased it from either. I''ll see what my mom says.

The thing is...., back in the late 20 to 40''s (great depression and the pre-war and war years)..., many jewelers were limited with the materials they could have used...
Financially because of the depression...
Platinum was later reserved for military use..., Europe was on the verge of war..., and Diamonds were scarce as most came out of the cutting centers of Antwerp/Netherlands..., so were colored gems.

A lot of designers turned to synthetics and other stones to accomplish their designs..., a lot of gold was used with small accent gems... (see 40''s type jewelry)...

Thats why there are some amazing costume jewelry that was designed and manufactured in that era...

Just some info....

 

[Ellen]

Date: 9/5/2008 8:51:30 AM
Author: DiaGem
The thing is...., back in the late 20 to 40''s (great depression and the pre-war and war years)..., many jewelers were limited with the materials they could have used...
Financially because of the depression...
Platinum was later reserved for military use..., Europe was on the verge of war..., and Diamonds were scarce as most came out of the cutting centers of Antwerp/Netherlands..., so were colored gems.

A lot of designers turned to synthetics and other stones to accomplish their designs..., a lot of gold was used with small accent gems... (see 40''s type jewelry)...

Thats why there are some amazing costume jewelry that was designed and manufactured in that era...

Just some info....

And great info at that! Thanks.

 

[glitterata]

It seems to me less likely that she was fooled into thinking it was a diamond ring and more likely that she bought it as nice costume, maybe as a traveling ring, cocktail ring, or something like that. But of course, I''m just speculating.

 

[Ellen]

glitter, the reason I thought it might not have been represented correctly was because my mom had it in the bank box with other (real) diamond rings. I "think" she thinks it''s real....

I tried to call about it but she''s not home. Will let you all know what I find out.

 

[Ellen]

I just spoke with my mom. It didn''t belong to the aunt I thought it did. It belonged to another aunt, who was married to my mothers great uncle. Her mind is slipping, so no dates. What I could get out of her is that he was a physician, who lost a fortune in the stock market crash. Mom said the aunt always wore it on her wedding finger. Mom certainly assumed it was real, but whether the aunt did, or knew differently, we''ll never know. And she assumes it was purchased in the states, but again, can''t be sure. They never had children, and that''s why my mom ended up with it.


Does it look like it could be that old, or is mom possibly remembering inaccurately?

 

[glitterata]

Looks like the 1920s-30s to me.

Perhaps she sold her diamond ring in the Depression and replaced it with this?

 

[Ellen]

Date: 9/5/2008 1:44:41 PM
Author: glitterata
Looks like the 1920s-30s to me.

Perhaps she sold her diamond ring in the Depression and replaced it with this?

That could be possible I suppose.

 

[LGK]

A lot of faux pearls were sold c.1900-1920s with very iffy, misleading sorts of descriptions (I've seen some of the actual antique ads and they really did flat out lie!), so tons of people bringing in "grandma's pearls" get an unpleasant surprise- I see this a lot. Alexandrites also- synthetics have been around for forever, so people who think grandma has a huge gorgeous real alexandrite are also in for a surprise. (Actually my own grandmother has one- she believes implicitly that it's the real thing, but it isn't... not that I've ever said anything to her, it's one of her favorite pieces of jewelery that she wears everyday and loves it, it would crush her to know it was synthetic.

Not so much the diamonds, people seem to generally know which pieces from their families are real or not. We do test diamond-test antique jewelry for people every so often, but I don't really recall breaking anyone's heart over a family "diamond". I suspect a lot of the good faux diamonds were sold as represented, but that the family might lose track of the provenance over the years (like you) or that the husband didn't exactly fess up that it wasn't real.

Advertising pracitices and rules have changed a LOT in favor of the consumer though!

I do think it's 1920s or possibly early 1930s, it has that style.

 

[2Artists]

Ellen that is a really fascinating mystery and and I have followed this journey with lots of interest. It''s like a detective novel. Your attitude about it has been so graceful. Thank you for sharing this with us. Best wishes.

Mrs.2Artists

 

[glitterata]

Ellen, would you like to post this on my Old Phonies thread?

Old Phonies