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Trump Pulls Back Protections For Women Workers

redwood66 said:
True AnnaH. I also believe that removing the ability to pay based on merit and production adversely affects businesses. There are many things that are to be considered when looking at pay. Those companies that pay less solely based on gender are breaking an already existing law.
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Why do you believe this Red?

Yes companies that break this law (and there are many I think) but the women may lose their jobs.. fear. you have to be willing to give up to report.
 
AnnaH said:
Red, I agree that the article does little to inform, and that doesn't seem to be the purpose.
There are many articles that explain the pay gap. This one is not the best, but very brief.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/harvard-prof.-takes-down-gender-wage-gap-myth/article/2580405

The 83% figure is comparing apples to oranges. Every female worker to every male worker, period.
I read, in another article, that young, childless females in large cities make significantly more than young males.
Now the sexual harassment part is another matter. Women should not be contractually compelled to accept whatever an arbitrator says, obviously. Is that really what the repeal means? Did this Obama order really solve this issue?
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It's true that women make choices (birth, child rearing etc) but I believe things are changing somewhat, most of my nurses have been men lately, all the tellers as my CU are young men.. I wonder if the payscale for those jobs increased as men entered traditional female positions.

Basically a woman is penalized for being a woman, she takes off more time due to birth, she handles more of the housework.. I would agree things are slowly changing, but have a long way to go.
 
Tekate said:
Why do you believe this Red?

Yes companies that break this law (and there are many I think) but the women may lose their jobs.. fear. you have to be willing to give up to report.
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Why would you pay a stellar employee who goes above and beyond the same as you pay the person just there to do the minimal required or calls in sick constantly? That comment has nothing to do with gender either.
 
redwood66 said:
Why would you pay a stellar employee who goes above and beyond the same as you pay the person just there to do the minimal required or calls in sick constantly? That comment has nothing to do with gender either.
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Having come from a union environment, I can tell you paying people the same
based on job title alone and not merit sucks for the good workers and is heaven for the bad. I can also say that most (90%) of the people who I personally witnessed abuse/take advantage of policy were women. Literally months off for stress that always happened in the summer...hmmmm. I'm not talking maternity leave or any justified absence. And no I didn't know the gritty details but why was it only women and not men doing this? I don't know the answer but as a hard working, sympathetic, empathetic woman it still pissed me off to no end especially knowing some of these women personally who spent the summer basking at the beach and traveling. Regardless of gender, not being able to base pay on merit causes very serious problems and keeps problem employees employed for much longer than they should be when another hard working person would gladly step in & step up to take that opportunity.

With regards to the construction industry, women aren't built like men. It's a fact. If a male worker completes 4xs as much as his female counterpart in any given day, how is it fair they earn the same pay? How do we make it fair? Have the man be less productive? Not award these jobs to women at all unless they can keep up? What is the right answer? I just don't know...

Doesn't Title VII already protect against sex discrimination? The executive order applied to federal contracted employers only correct?
 
Kbell said:
Having come from a union environment, I can tell you paying people the same
based on job title alone and not merit sucks for the good workers and is heaven for the bad. I can also say that most (90%) of the people who I personally witnessed abuse/take advantage of policy were women. Literally months off for stress that always happened in the summer...hmmmm. I'm not talking maternity leave or any justified absence. And no I didn't know the gritty details but why was it only women and not men doing this? I don't know the answer but as a hard working, sympathetic, empathetic woman it still pissed me off to no end especially knowing some of these women personally who spent the summer basking at the beach and traveling. Regardless of gender, not being able to base pay on merit causes very serious problems and keeps problem employees employed for much longer than they should be when another hard working person would gladly step in & step up to take that opportunity.

With regards to the construction industry, women aren't built like men. It's a fact. If a male worker completes 4xs as much as his female counterpart in any given day, how is it fair they earn the same pay? How do we make it fair? Have the man be less productive? Not award these jobs to women at all unless they can keep up? What is the right answer? I just don't know...

Doesn't Title VII already protect against sex discrimination? The executive order applied to federal contracted employers only correct?
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+1

My husband works for the state. It is all based on longevity. And the abuse is rampant. Coincidentally, it is a couple of women in his section as well that call in sick on a regular basis in the summer, especially on Fridays, only to return on Monday with a lovely tan.

Pay should be merit based.
 
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Groups of professional adults do that to each other? Wow.
 
Kbell said:
Having come from a union environment, I can tell you paying people the same
based on job title alone and not merit sucks for the good workers and is heaven for the bad. I can also say that most (90%) of the people who I personally witnessed abuse/take advantage of policy were women. Literally months off for stress that always happened in the summer...hmmmm. I'm not talking maternity leave or any justified absence. And no I didn't know the gritty details but why was it only women and not men doing this? I don't know the answer but as a hard working, sympathetic, empathetic woman it still pissed me off to no end especially knowing some of these women personally who spent the summer basking at the beach and traveling. Regardless of gender, not being able to base pay on merit causes very serious problems and keeps problem employees employed for much longer than they should be when another hard working person would gladly step in & step up to take that opportunity.

With regards to the construction industry, women aren't built like men. It's a fact. If a male worker completes 4xs as much as his female counterpart in any given day, how is it fair they earn the same pay? How do we make it fair? Have the man be less productive? Not award these jobs to women at all unless they can keep up? What is the right answer? I just don't know.. I don't know ANY women who took time off for 'stress' although I knew many many that had a lot going on in their lives we had PTO yo

Doesn't Title VII already protect against sex discrimination? The executive order applied to federal contracted employers only correct?
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Coming from a union family, I can tell you - without a union many lose their jobs, at the whim of management. The union stands by an employee (such as my dad once) and helps the family, works with management and assists in mental health.. I cannot say enough good about unions.

In private business I used to have a saying: "the poor performer get's help! assistance classes.. the one the performer? She get's more work".. it's true.. I lived it.

As to pay, my ex worked for the Feds and he was in a publicly posted paygrade, but within that grade there was difference pays and good peformers got better raises etc and poor performers got nothing, so maybe it is different in say construction.

My brother - when he was diagnosed with Stage IV IIIc lung cancer - was assisted for 18 months by the union and paid his health insurance and they supported him emotionally.

As to taking summers off, women try to use the PTO time to be home with their kids, so maybe at your place that was it? I dunno.. Maybe you should have asked one of the women? If they were using PTO then doesn't sound unfair to me, sounds like they were trying to use their time wisely.

If a woman and a man are doing the same work and produce the same output then they should be paid the same (given seniority etc).. if she outputs less and she was told at hiring that she had to then she will be let go, simple. And I have seen women go head to head with men physically btw..

Abusing time... I cannot say that I saw either many men or women abuse time, but I have worked with some women that were bitches and put themselves first and I've worked with men that harassed the heck out of me, literally.

I'd say title VII protects against sexism and it's violated all the time.. look at Fox News...

It's so easy to say "hey, there's a law against that", and to be involved in a situation.. why else did it take women so long to come out against Cosby? people are afraid of losing their reputation, their ability to make money and retribution.
 
ruby59 said:
+1

My husband works for the state. It is all based on longevity. And the abuse is rampant. Coincidentally, it is a couple of women in his section as well that call in sick on a regular basis in the summer, especially on Fridays, only to return on Monday with a lovely tan.

Pay should be merit based.
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My father worked for Amtrack (union) for years, my brother worked for Sheet Metal workers union, the abuse was not rampant! By the time my Dad retired many trainmen were women. When you work for federal/state/county agency your pay is posted your grade, within those grades are levels, and people who suck get smaller if any raises.

My dad said many of the women workers put in more effort and time and were available for overtime more often, I never knew my father to EVER take a sick day in 44.5 years on the railroad, NEVER EVER, it's pretty damn hard to do that when people are relying on you.

Good workers in business get more work, poor workers get help even in regular business.

Pay should be merit based and based on seniority and based on educational level and based on attitude.
 
redwood66 said:
Kbell and ruby I am also from a union environment and the laziness by some (not just women) was ridiculous. In fact we had an acronym for them - LOP - lame old p insert favorite PS word about Trump that ruby hates. And nothing could be done to get rid of them.


And this appears to be inconvenient to Equal Pay Day.

http://freebeacon.com/issues/elizab...ers-made-71-less-male-staffers-earnings-2016/
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What were their educational levels? what were their time on the job? what were their seniority levels? years of experience? Does the government pay a new hire the same as a 20 year veteran? Before one can cry "Warren pays men more" I would need to see the breakdown and experience level, educational level... Washington Beacon is a known alt right 'news' site.
 
Tekate said:
Coming from a union family, I can tell you - without a union many lose their jobs, at the whim of management. The union stands by an employee (such as my dad once) and helps the family, works with management and assists in mental health.. I cannot say enough good about unions.

In private business I used to have a saying: "the poor performer get's help! assistance classes.. the one the performer? She get's more work".. it's true.. I lived it.

As to pay, my ex worked for the Feds and he was in a publicly posted paygrade, but within that grade there was difference pays and good peformers got better raises etc and poor performers got nothing, so maybe it is different in say construction.

My brother - when he was diagnosed with Stage IV IIIc lung cancer - was assisted for 18 months by the union and paid his health insurance and they supported him emotionally.

As to taking summers off, women try to use the PTO time to be home with their kids, so maybe at your place that was it? I dunno.. Maybe you should have asked one of the women? If they were using PTO then doesn't sound unfair to me, sounds like they were trying to use their time wisely.

If a woman and a man are doing the same work and produce the same output then they should be paid the same (given seniority etc).. if she outputs less and she was told at hiring that she had to then she will be let go, simple. And I have seen women go head to head with men physically btw..

Abusing time... I cannot say that I saw either many men or women abuse time, but I have worked with some women that were bitches and put themselves first and I've worked with men that harassed the heck out of me, literally.

I'd say title VII protects against sexism and it's violated all the time.. look at Fox News...

It's so easy to say "hey, there's a law against that", and to be involved in a situation.. why else did it take women so long to come out against Cosby? people are afraid of losing their reputation, their ability to make money and retribution.
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I am not against unions don't get me wrong, I'm saying when there is pay based on job title alone & not performance there are problems which was the structure in my old union. It was not merit based. And there were plenty of lazy men - but they showed up at least even if they did little throughout the day. I was in the union for over 15 years & I'd say I benefitted more than not with better wages, hours, and benefits. But it has it's downfalls in that it's almost impossible to get rid of the bad apples... the really bad ones that everyone knows deserves to be gone.

The women I am speaking of abused the system. It wasn't earned vacation time (PTO) or earned sick time. It was "stress" leave - I'm so stressed in life I can't work - but I can go on vacations & travel & hang @ the beach with my friends & family all summer - and I NEVER EVER seem to get stressed in the winter. It was abuse no doubt about it. It was a pattern.

When there's already a law in place the emphasis should be on enforcement if it's not being followed, not creating new laws saying basically the same thing. And like I said, this applied to Federal contracted employers only.
 
Tekate said:
What were their educational levels? what were their time on the job? what were their seniority levels? years of experience? Does the government pay a new hire the same as a 20 year veteran? Before one can cry "Warren pays men more" I would need to see the breakdown and experience level, educational level... Washington Beacon is a known alt right 'news' site.
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Well its kind of like using a study over and over that added up all men's and women's pay for full time work and spit out two numbers that show women make less than men - without taking into account the myriad of different types of jobs or personal reasons they made those career choices. Like AnnaH said apples to oranges.
 
Tekate said:
My father worked for Amtrack (union) for years, my brother worked for Sheet Metal workers union, the abuse was not rampant! By the time my Dad retired many trainmen were women. When you work for federal/state/county agency your pay is posted your grade, within those grades are levels, and people who suck get smaller if any raises.

My dad said many of the women workers put in more effort and time and were available for overtime more often, I never knew my father to EVER take a sick day in 44.5 years on the railroad, NEVER EVER, it's pretty damn hard to do that when people are relying on you.

Good workers in business get more work, poor workers get help even in regular business.

Pay should be merit based and based on seniority and based on educational level and based on attitude.
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All this says is your father's working conditions are different from why my husband is experiencing.

As the head of his group he is now making Friday meetings mandatory to combat the abuse.
 
ruby59 said:
All this says is your father's working conditions are different from why my husband is experiencing.

As the head of his group he is now making Friday meetings mandatory to combat the abuse.
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Yes it does but it shows 2 different ANECDOTAL stories on unions.. your story is no more right than mine mine.. to me my story is more true because that is what I saw. The union was so helpful to my brother at the end of his life.

As to Friday meetings? meh.. counsel those who are abusing the privilege, and to the whiners who complain counsel them also to be constructive.
 
redwood66 said:
Well its kind of like using a study over and over that added up all men's and women's pay for full time work and spit out two numbers that show women make less than men - without taking into account the myriad of different types of jobs or personal reasons they made those career choices. Like AnnaH said apples to oranges.
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Yes it is.
 
Tekate said:
Yes it does but it shows 2 different ANECDOTAL stories on unions.. your story is no more right than mine mine.. to me my story is more true because that is what I saw. The union was so helpful to my brother at the end of his life.

As to Friday meetings? meh.. counsel those who are abusing the privilege, and to the whiners who complain counsel them also to be constructive.
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My father worked for Amtrack (union) for years, my brother worked for Sheet Metal workers union, the abuse was not rampant!

This is what you posted, and I gave you what was going on in my husband's department.

As to the bolded, I live with my husband, and see the work he has to bring home at night to cover for them.

As to who is right or wrong where did I ever state that?

My husband has obviously spoken to these women many times, but they know that in the State you cannot be fired unless it is something big and then they cry harassment and threaten to call their Union Reps.
 
Kbell said:
I am not against unions don't get me wrong, I'm saying when there is pay based on job title alone & not performance there are problems which was the structure in my old union. It was not merit based. And there were plenty of lazy men - but they showed up at least even if they did little throughout the day. I was in the union for over 15 years & I'd say I benefitted more than not with better wages, hours, and benefits. But it has it's downfalls in that it's almost impossible to get rid of the bad apples... the really bad ones that everyone knows deserves to be gone.

The women I am speaking of abused the system. It wasn't earned vacation time (PTO) or earned sick time. It was "stress" leave - I'm so stressed in life I can't work - but I can go on vacations & travel & hang @ the beach with my friends & family all summer - and I NEVER EVER seem to get stressed in the winter. It was abuse no doubt about it. It was a pattern.

When there's already a law in place the emphasis should be on enforcement if it's not being followed, not creating new laws saying basically the same thing. And like I said, this applied to Federal contracted employers only.
Click to expand...

Abuse happens in and out of unions - I know this very well. I don't know of any company that paid just on title.. I've been working since 1969 (I was in a union then).. My exhusband worked for the feds for 11 years and while he had a grade, he also was paid for his performance within the grade.. I would agree it's harder to get rid of bad apples, but I ask myself.. is the bad applies worth losing my ability to fight a bad manager? Hard to say for me. (Let me tell you, IBM had so many bad apples that I used to choke daily).

I can say in all honesty I have NEVER worked in a place that allowed STRESS time.. ????? I have been a Registrar, a programmer, a secretary.. in my 40 years. What business type is this that allows Stress time? If you allow stress time with no accountability then one is asking for trouble with the government.. if these are hourly employees there are some rules (albeit the republicans have ruined many of those rules)..

If one is a contractor that is different, they sign a contract, if a manager cannot counsel a contractor then the manager has the ability to not renew the contract and the full-time employees can go over their manager to complain about contractors abusing time and creating a hostile workplace ( :) ) like I said my exhusband worked for the feds (SSA for 11 years) and no contractor there ever had STRESS time.. nope.. my exhusband was a pill and he would have gone to the union pronto.
 
ruby59 said:
My father worked for Amtrack (union) for years, my brother worked for Sheet Metal workers union, the abuse was not rampant!

This is what you posted, and I gave you what was going on in my husband's department.

As to the bolded, I live with my husband, and see the work he has to bring home at night to cover for them.

As to who is right or wrong where did I ever state that?

My husband has obviously spoken to these women many times, but they know that in the State you cannot be fired unless it is something big and then they cry harassment and threaten to call their Union Reps.
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And I gave you what was going on in my Dad's 44.6 years on the railroad and my brothers 20 years as a sheetmetal worker.

If your husband is covering for his employees then he needs to go HIGHER UP, that is baloney.. I've worked 40 years of my life and i've worked in many businesses and no one not a one, covers over and over for another person. Union or NON union.

Why is your husband covering for them? to meet quota? I've known managers that cover for their employees when they are on sick leave... (now PTO)..

Hey my husband used to complain bitterly about having to cover for women who were pregnant and out on leave, then we had a kid.. I used to complain about women taking time off to be with their sick kids (then I had a kid)..

Your husband needs to make a stand. The state of Rhode Island allows leave without pay, maybe these people are doing that?

I didn't say who was right or wrong? get it???
 
Tekate said:
Abuse happens in and out of unions - I know this very well. I don't know of any company that paid just on title.. I've been working since 1969 (I was in a union then).. My exhusband worked for the feds for 11 years and while he had a grade, he also was paid for his performance within the grade.. I would agree it's harder to get rid of bad apples, but I ask myself.. is the bad applies worth losing my ability to fight a bad manager? Hard to say for me. (Let me tell you, IBM had so many bad apples that I used to choke daily).

I can say in all honesty I have NEVER worked in a place that allowed STRESS time.. ????? I have been a Registrar, a programmer, a secretary.. in my 40 years. What business type is this that allows Stress time? If you allow stress time with no accountability then one is asking for trouble with the government.. if these are hourly employees there are some rules (albeit the republicans have ruined many of those rules)..

If one is a contractor that is different, they sign a contract, if a manager cannot counsel a contractor then the manager has the ability to not renew the contract and the full-time employees can go over their manager to complain about contractors abusing time and creating a hostile workplace ( :) ) like I said my exhusband worked for the feds (SSA for 11 years) and no contractor there ever had STRESS time.. nope.. my exhusband was a pill and he would have gone to the union pronto.
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It's a utility company that's been around forever and ever and trust me - I wish there wasn't such a thing as "stress leave" but there was and they got paid & bragged about it. I got paid the same as the guy sitting across from me falling asleep at his desk lol. It was frustrating for managers too - some are friends of mine & they can't do anything about pay. It's bargained that way - by job title.
I know this happens in non union too. The office I manage isn't union. The laziest person here has 30+ years and I guess he figures now he can just coast and do nothing. Maybe he used to be productive, I wouldn't know because I wasn't here then. I only know now he does next to nothing and makes everyone else's job harder while he curses & sighs every time he gets a call or email and then complains he's bored!
 
Tekate said:
And I gave you what was going on in my Dad's 44.6 years on the railroad and my brothers 20 years as a sheetmetal worker.

If your husband is covering for his employees then he needs to go HIGHER UP, that is baloney.. I've worked 40 years of my life and i've worked in many businesses and no one not a one, covers over and over for another person. Union or NON union.

Why is your husband covering for them? to meet quota? I've known managers that cover for their employees when they are on sick leave... (now PTO)..

Hey my husband used to complain bitterly about having to cover for women who were pregnant and out on leave, then we had a kid.. I used to complain about women taking time off to be with their sick kids (then I had a kid)..

Your husband needs to make a stand. The state of Rhode Island allows leave without pay, maybe these people are doing that?

I didn't say who was right or wrong? get it???
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My husband is covering for them because certain reports have to go out on certain days and it is up to him to make sure the report is complete.

And I am not referring to maternity leave here or being home with a sick kid of relative, just women working on their tans and knowing how to work the system.
 
monarch64 said:
I love how a thread about men shitting on women's rights turns into IT'S WOMEN'S FAULT, DUH.
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Everyone knows that women leaving to tan and then crying harassment is a rampant problem in the workplace, leaving the menfolk to pick up the slack. They're probably all on their periods or something.
 
This coming from a pack of she wolves criticizing the looks of other people.

I no longer respond to hypocrites.
 
ruby59 said:
This coming from a pack of she wolves criticizing the looks of other people.

I no longer respond to hypocrites.
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Oh now Ruby I don't know if you want to be taking a trip down look shaming memory lane :hand:
 
Honey, I am the flawed traditionalist.

It is you perfect progressives who should know better.
 
Why should "progressives" know better? Better than what? I am always genuinely confused at this point in these "arguments"
 
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Elliot86 said:
Everyone knows that women leaving to tan and then crying harassment is a rampant problem in the workplace, leaving the menfolk to pick up the slack. They're probably all on their periods or something.
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In my husband's job, it is an almost equal number of men and women who have had to pick up the slack. And guess what, most of the bi*tching has come from the other women.
 
siamese3 said:
Why should "progressives" know better? Better than what? I am always genuinely confused at his point in these "arguments"
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I am constantly told here how my way of thinking is wrong and that it is good that people like me are slowly dying off.
 
I didn't realize it was "tradition" :lol:
 
I don't understand. Are you saying that all the other people that are not like you, are not "good" people?
 
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