Trump - a killer of American youth.

[AGBF]

I never meant to ask Bayek to close this thread. Only after I read that she had done so did I reread my posting. I had no time to edit it. I had simply planned to write that there was a fine line between giving strong opinions and being impolite.

Kate, I apologize for causing, or being part of a cause, of the closure of this thread (at your request). I was simply worried about how heated it might become.

Deb

 

[voce]

I agree with much of what you say, but I'm not sure "the rest of us" see the title as excessive. We all tend to think that our view is the normal.

And, I'm not sure how much unifying can be done. We are extremely divided, and short of not voicing criticism of Trump I don't see how the left can unify us. Every criticism is seen as TDS. The high road is great, but I'm not sure it gets you anywhere.

For me, it's not about "getting anywhere" specifically. Yes, we are deeply divided. But the more you react extremely, the more those people would see TDS as justified. I don't have any wish to have people pushed further to the right because of extreme language from the left. I'm fully aware that some of you just don't care, but as someone whose views of Trump has changed over time, as someone who's fiscally conservative and socially liberal, I hate the groupthink and vitriole along party lines.

Productive action and measures can only be taken by being pragmatic and by avoiding extremism. I see the Bernie supporters doing as much harm as the Trump supporters. You may see things differently, but part of the reason America is losing prestige in the world is that with every change in administration, there are big swings with policy, including foreign policy. When you have an administration pass something like the ACA, only for that to be undermined just a decade later, it's just completely unproductive in the long run. I'd rather have us plod a steady course towards a better society, instead of promising too much, not being able to deliver, and disappointing everybody.

 

[Demon]

For me, it's not about "getting anywhere" specifically. Yes, we are deeply divided. But the more you react extremely, the more those people would see TDS as justified. I don't have any wish to have people pushed further to the right because of extreme language from the left. I'm fully aware that some of you just don't care, but as someone whose views of Trump has changed over time, as someone who's fiscally conservative and socially liberal, I hate the groupthink and vitriole along party lines.

Productive action and measures can only be taken by being pragmatic and by avoiding extremism. I see the Bernie supporters doing as much harm as the Trump supporters. You may see things differently, but part of the reason America is losing prestige in the world is that with every change in administration, there are big swings with policy, including foreign policy. When you have an administration pass something like the ACA, only for that to be undermined just a decade later, it's just completely unproductive in the long run. I'd rather have us plod a steady course towards a better society, instead of promising too much, not being able to deliver, and disappointing everybody.

I do see what you're saying, but this president and his administration are so extreme, that I don't think anything but extreme reaction is warranted. I didn't like Bush, either, but never felt about him the way I feel about Trump and his danger to this country. He is tearing down the rule of law, letting Putin get away with murder, has been a disaster on Covid.(I don't disagree about some of Bernie's supporters being extreme, either). I do see things differently in that I don't think America had really lost prestige in the world until this admin., and who is is that's trying to undermine the ACA, again and again? A steady course would be wonderful, and IMO wasn't all that uneven until the last few years.

I'm off to the store now, but I'll be back.

 

[1ofakind]

[QUOTE="]
We all tend to think that our view is the normal.
[/QUOTE]


I don't find that to be true overall. Most people IRL are capable of seeing and even respectfully acknowledging another viewpoint even if they disagree. I don't see much capacity for that here.
There were people who were just as extreme and hateful about Obama....they didn't see it of course. And neither do the posters here who are EXACTLY the same just on the flip side.

I know, I know....Trump deserves it and Obama didn't. Now you don't have to say it and pretend the principle doesn't apply to you.

 

[Matata]

Most people IRL are capable of seeing and even respectfully acknowledging another viewpoint even if they disagree. I don't see much capacity for that here.

If that were true, we wouldn't be witnessing such a destructive partisan divide that has weakened this country. We wouldn't still be witnessing protests against issues hundreds of years old. Little pockets of personal experience don't negate the evidence of majority behavior.

 

[Matata]

There were people who were just as extreme and hateful about Obama....they didn't see it of course. And neither do the posters here who are EXACTLY the same just on the flip side.

Those who hated Obama were majority white who were upset that a Black man was president and who were fearful that their white power would be taken away and they comprise Agent Orange's voting base. Those who hate Agent Orange are fearful that he'll destroy the country. The evidence is clear that AO has done immeasurable harm to the US. Obama did not strip whites of their power.

Comparing the two is beyond apples and oranges.

 

[AGBF]

If that were true, we wouldn't be witnessing such a destructive partisan divide that has weakened this country. We wouldn't still be witnessing protests against issues hundreds of years old. Little pockets of personal experience don't negate the evidence of majority behavior.

When I team taught a course for high school students I learned that ethnocentrism was the universal belief that one's own way of life was the natural and right way to live.

Brava, Matata. You so often catch it when people are ethnocentric, as we all are.

 

[voce]

If that were true, we wouldn't be witnessing such a destructive partisan divide that has weakened this country. We wouldn't still be witnessing protests against issues hundreds of years old. Little pockets of personal experience don't negate the evidence of majority behavior.

There is a saying in Chinese that you cannot clap with one hand. I agree with much of what you say, but the destructive partisan divide is not the fault of only one side. I see it as mainly the fault of Trump supporters who let him get away with so much, but fault can be found on the left, too, as @the_mother_thing 's post on this thread shows. I just don't like double standards either way.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

This is really not about Republicans and Democrats. I like to think about it in terms of the Resistance and the Supporters of Trump. After all it is the Supportrrs of Trump, those that elected him, that are responsible for the conditions in our country. They voted for someone who is extreme in his views of the world and unfortunately that deserves nothing less than an equally forceful response.

We have come to the ultimate ending--American lives lost, not a small amount, but a figure that will end up being more than would be in an active war. The outrage is not extreme , and it is questionable if those Trump Supporter deserve respect. The conditions for posting here are for the sake of administrators; surely not for objective posters. We ought not suppress truth for civility or being impolite. There is so much at stake, and is caused by one man, duly elected by those who liked what he was. Why shouldn't those persons be called out.?

Annette

 

[Matata]

A fatal flaw of humanity "People believe that they know way more than they actually do."

Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds

New discoveries about the human mind show the limitations of reason.

www.newyorker.com

 

[Ella]

Closing at request of the OP.