Treatment on an emerald - araldite

[Jereni]

I'm looking at a loose emerald with a good price, and I'm now wondering if this is why. I wrote them to ask about return policy if I send the stone to AGL. This is what they wrote back in terms of information on treatment:

"We frequently have our new acquisitions cedar oiled before bringing them
home. One of the most commonly used treatment labs in Bogota uses a cedar
oil that contains an additive called Araldite. Araldite is a colorless,
synthetic hardener to help reduce oil leakage from the stone. This oil is
very commonly used and in no way is viewed as deceptive or unethical. But
because of this synthetic component, which is detected by their Raman
spectrographic equipment, they label this treatment as 'modern'. That's not
a problem, but their definition of modern treatments also include other less
desirable treatments such as permasafe and gematrat which are quite
different in that they are epoxies that can actually be used to reconstruct
or drastically alter the physical integrity of a stone. They are not
ethical. We disagree with them grouping the cedar oil/w Araldite in with
these other 'treatments'. They are clearly different."

Thoughts? I'm unfamiliar with this and am having some trouble deciphering what I'm reading online about it. Does this kill value of the emerald, what are thoughts on its stability?

 

[minousbijoux]

Its kind of a weird way to respond, huh? Its really a backdoor, "Aw shucks" kinda way of saying its moderately treated. Araldite is yet another epoxy resin like opticon. If you do a search for "the identification of clarity enhancements of emeralds" you will find an excellent article which, through sampling of variously sourced stones, summarizes the types and categories of various treatments, including araldite. Its a pity they were not straightforward in their response to you, as filling with epoxy resin, while commonplace, is certainly not considered light treatment with oil alone.

 

[hippi_pixi]

i would say that is a bit of a sneaky and underhanded reply the truth is there but its hidden in some pretty convincing fiction

 

[Jereni]

Gotcha... I suppose it may sound a little shady but I probably did them a disservice by not quoting the rest of their response. Here it is:

"As a result of the discussion we had this summer, we now try to have our new acquisitions oiled with 100% certified cedar oil. Our supplier requested the treatment lab offer this service and as far as we know, he's the only one that uses it from this particular lab. The certified oil tends to leak more and is more expensive, but will be detected as organic and be labeled as 'Traditional' by the AGL.

Bottom line: this stone was oiled with the cedar oil containing araldite. It is ethical, we stand behind it, and we feel the AGL is wrong from using the 'modern' label for this treatment when it is clearly in another class from the undesirable epoxy type treatments.

I hope you found this information helpful. We'll likely make the topic a blog post in the near future."


So, they *are* trying to go for purely organic treatments from now on.

Given the info in general, that araldite is involved, is this bad for specific reasons like instability of color or structure of stone? I'm trying to decide if the treatment would be acceptable to me, given the color, size, and price of the stone. I am unlikely to ever be able to afford a top color, oiled-only, large emerald.

 

[minousbijoux]

On the contrary, It stands to reason that with Araldite as an additive, the treatment/filler will last longer and will be less likely to leach out over time. But it certainly does not seem like this would be considered minimal treatment. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it should be priced accordingly.

 

[VapidLapid]

Oil painters use drying additives to their paints to speed the curing rate. a common one is a cobalt salt. They accelerate the cure time but dont really have another effect. I would hazard a guess that this additive causes the cedar oil to cure to hardness or at least thicken such that it does not leach out except in solvents. I imaging that if their product works in similar fashion, and contains metallic salts that would certainly show up in a spectrographic analysis, they are explaining to you the result before you get it. All this is just a gues on my part and it certainly needs to be researched more extensively.

eta: I just looked it up. No it is not an oil hardener, it is a structural epoxy, acrylic, and polyurethane adhesive. It is used, among other things, as a resin for forming hardened layers of carbon fiber. In time it may turn out to be benign and permanent, or not, but it certainly is a modern treatment and not in the cedar oil family.

 

[hippi_pixi]

this line is particularly deceptive:

"Bottom line: this stone was oiled with the cedar oil containing araldite. It is ethical, we stand behind it, and we feel the AGL is wrong from using the 'modern' label for this treatment when it is clearly in another class from the undesirable epoxy type treatments."

I don't know about the US but in Australia araldite is a very popular epoxy resin glue. I'm a big fan, its better that superglue. So to try and pass it off as something else is deceptive.

In the end the price needs to be in line with a treated stone not an oil only stone. i wonder if it is, if the seller is trying to convince you it is 'basically' oil only.

And in my mind theres always a risk when buying a treated stone. even cedarwood oil dries out and becomes brown over time. so the question is, is that risk acceptable to you for the price point you would pay?

 

[Lady_Disdain]

My blood pressure went up reading this! Yes, araldite is an epoxy. Claiming that it is an additive is misleading and probably breaks a few FTC rules.

GIA has conducted some studies on the durability and medium term (6 years, I believe) effects of different fillers, one of them was araldite. Araldite was sensitive to ultrasound cleaning (well, no one should be cleaning emeralds in an ultrasound anyway) and ethanol (which surprised me). You can read it (and several other interesting papers on emerald treatments) on GIA's site.

 

[ChristineRose]

I'd rather have a synthetic.

I know that most Pricescopers aren't in love with synthetics, and I understand the reasons even if I don't have the same priorities. But I can't see the appeal of a plastic and emerald chip sandwich when you can get something that's actually 100% flawless emerald for the same price. And yeah, fake is fake.

 

[treasurehunter]

Synthetic emeralds do not look like emeralds they generally are too saturated and too blue they don't have the natural look that emeralds possess also due to their inclusions and jardin.

When I went to the laboratory in colombia called CDTEC 97 percent of emeralds that come from colombia are treated.
2-3 percent are not treated
Only 2 percent are treated with 100 percent pure cedar wood oil.
Around 80 percent are treated with cedar wood oil in combination with non natural oils.
the remaining 15 percent are treated with hardener permasefe type treatments, which can deceptive because if they use it on emerald rough before its cut. The hardener can literally keep the rough together and stop it from falling apart on the cutting wheel.
Permasefe can also make the fractures disappear more than cedar wood oil so it should be disclosed.

Emerald treatments like Permasefe and non natural oils are not specifically bad, Its the amount of filler /treatment that is used that is most important.
Emeralds with a significant level of treatment should be avoided .
Minute or minor have so little amount of enhancer its not a concern.

 

[Jereni]

Before some specific responses, I just want to say thanks to everyone for the feedback so far - this information is extremely helpful.

On the contrary, It stands to reason that with Araldite as an additive, the treatment/filler will last longer and will be less likely to leach out over time. But it certainly does not seem like this would be considered minimal treatment. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it should be priced accordingly.

Ok that makes sense. I'm definitely not considering this minimal treatment, and my thought (at least so far) is that it is priced accordingly. The stone is over 2.5cts and is priced around $1700. I don't consider myself an expert on emerald prices by any means, but I have seen much higher prices at vendors like Africagems, Wildfishgems, and Litnon, so my general impression was that an emerald this size would typically cost much, much more.

eta: I just looked it up. No it is not an oil hardener, it is a structural epoxy, acrylic, and polyurethane adhesive. It is used, among other things, as a resin for forming hardened layers of carbon fiber. In time it may turn out to be benign and permanent, or not, but it certainly is a modern treatment and not in the cedar oil family.

Interesting, thank you. I'd been trying to read up on this on a number of websites, and one article that went quite in depth had defined some separations between 'polymers' like araldite and some other things, let me see if I can find it. But it's good to get confirmation that they are bending the language quite a bit when they say it's not a modern treatment.

 

[Jereni]

I'd been trying to read up on this on a number of websites, and one article that went quite in depth had defined some separations between 'polymers' like araldite and some other things, let me see if I can find it.

Ignore this last - I'm re-reading things and my comment above can probably be attributed to just not understanding the technical terms yet.

 

[Jereni]

GIA has conducted some studies on the durability and medium term (6 years, I believe) effects of different fillers, one of them was araldite. Araldite was sensitive to ultrasound cleaning (well, no one should be cleaning emeralds in an ultrasound anyway) and ethanol (which surprised me). You can read it (and several other interesting papers on emerald treatments) on GIA's site.

Thank you very much for the reference, if anyone else is interested, I found the article here http://www.gia.edu/doi/10_5741-GEMS_43_2_120, and am currently trying to interpret

 

[minousbijoux]

GIA has conducted some studies on the durability and medium term (6 years, I believe) effects of different fillers, one of them was araldite. Araldite was sensitive to ultrasound cleaning (well, no one should be cleaning emeralds in an ultrasound anyway) and ethanol (which surprised me). You can read it (and several other interesting papers on emerald treatments) on GIA's site.

Thank you very much for the reference, if anyone else is interested, I found the article here http://www.gia.edu/doi/10_5741-GEMS_43_2_120, and am currently trying to interpret

Thank you for adding the GIA article as an additional source of info - anything that helps the many interested to understand the differences in fillers is beneficial for all of us.

 

[minousbijoux]

Oh and Jereni, if and when you are ready, it would be great if you would share the source, as its good for others to know that they don't disclose everything as clearly as they might.

 

[Jereni]

I absolutely will - I'm just waiting to decide if I want to order the stone to see if I like it in person...not sure what I want to do yet but I'd hate to have it disappear while I'm debating.

 

[pregcurious]

Great thread.

 

[hippi_pixi]

I'm not an expert on emerald pricing either but i feel the price should be less for a treated stone. hopefully someone else will chime in. have you had a look at http://www.embassyemeralds.com? I haven't bought from them (yet) so i can't give you much feedback but their prices seem better than other websites

edited to add: good luck with your search! maybe you could share a photo of the stone you are considering? also i hope it wasn't embassy you had been dealing with cos that would be really disappointing

 

[LD]

Araldite is the name of a glue commonly used in the UK. Unfortunately I would think this is the same thing that has been used here so basically I find their reply to you to be exceptionally misleading.

Although this article doesn't say anything about Araldite you may find it useful. http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/catfights.htm

Would you mind sharing who this vendor is please because I, for one, would like to make sure I steer clear of their offerings.

 

[minousbijoux]

LD: I think the OP said she would share once she is clear of them - she doesn't want to harm any transaction that may be underway...

 

[treasurehunter]

Untreated emeralds can command prices 50 - 100 percent more than a similar non treated stone.
Significant treatment can make the stone look a lot more valuable than it really is.

Its impossible to tell the price without a photo and very difficult to judge emerald price with a photo .

 

[Lady_Disdain]

GIA has conducted some studies on the durability and medium term (6 years, I believe) effects of different fillers, one of them was araldite. Araldite was sensitive to ultrasound cleaning (well, no one should be cleaning emeralds in an ultrasound anyway) and ethanol (which surprised me). You can read it (and several other interesting papers on emerald treatments) on GIA's site.

Thank you very much for the reference, if anyone else is interested, I found the article here http://www.gia.edu/doi/10_5741-GEMS_43_2_120, and am currently trying to interpret

Oh d'uh! I didn't post the link... Thanks Jereni!

note to self: be properly caffeinated and awake before posting.

 

[chrono]

The fact that the vendor was not being forthright with their explanation would give me pause. Yes, the treatment was disclosed but not everything was explained truthfully and openly. Regardless of the vendor sourcing oiled only emeralds in the near future for their inventory, their hedging of the matter has cast doubts in my mind with regards to future disclosure as well. I will keeping my eye out for the vendor's name when Jereni is ready because I do not want to give my business to them nor recommend them to anyone else.

 

[minousbijoux]

Completely agree.

 

[treasurehunter]

I disagree.
Emerald enhancements are a very complicated matter, I doubt there was any malice or mal intention from the suppliers side as most gemmologists are confused as to the treatment process
What advantage does 100 percent cedar wood oil have anyway ? It leaks out easier thats why virtually no one uses it in colombia anymore.
If you want information from a real expert on Treatments read Ron Ringsrud book Emeralds a passionate guide or see his website
emerald mine.com

 

[treasurehunter]

I disagree.
Emerald enhancements are a very complicated matter, I doubt there was any malice or mal intention from the suppliers side as most gemmologists are confused as to the treatment process
What advantage does 100 percent cedar wood oil have anyway ? It leaks out easier thats why virtually no one uses it in colombia anymore.
If you want information from a real expert on Treatments read Ron Ringsrud book Emeralds a passionate guide or see his website
emerald mine.com

 

[chrono]

If the emerald is oiled only, then it should be disclosed as oiled only.
If the emerald is resin filled, then it should be disclosed as resin filled only, including the type of resin because each resin type has its pros and cons.
If the emerald is oiled and resin filled, then it should be disclosed as oiled AND resin filled.

The issue here isn't which type of clarity enhancement is better or the pros and cons but the disclosure of enhancement. I agree that oiled only can be leaky, dries up over time, etc but if other fillers have also been added, it must be disclosed as well. I would be upset if I purchased a supposedly oiled only stone to discover at a later date that it has also been resin/epoxy filled. If I wanted a resin/epoxy emerald, I would have purchased such a stone in the first place. I wonder if Jereni had not asked about sending the stone to AGL whether the vendor would have even informed her it isn't truly oiled only.

Araldite 6010 is frequently known as Palma or palm oil and is an oil-like plastic. It sounds like a natural substance from a palm tree but is in fact a synthetic material and deemed as a resin filler by the labs. The downside of Palma is that it turns milky white after a few months, an unpleasant surprise for the unknowing buyer. This treatment is neither stable nor permanent.

http://www.emeraldmine.com/trtmt.htm

 

[LD]

I disagree.
Emerald enhancements are a very complicated matter, I doubt there was any malice or mal intention from the suppliers side as most gemmologists are confused as to the treatment process
What advantage does 100 percent cedar wood oil have anyway ? It leaks out easier thats why virtually no one uses it in colombia anymore.
If you want information from a real expert on Treatments read Ron Ringsrud book Emeralds a passionate guide or see his website
emerald mine.com

I'm sorry but I disagree. If somebody is selling gemstones and has enough knowledge to reply as this vendor has, then one would be hard pressed to believe he/she doesn't understand treatments. Chrono is correct that treatments should be disclosed in a proper manner and not in a way that some of the information is difficult to understand or interpret. The normal language typically used when describing Emerald treatments/enhancements has been omitted by this seller.

The book you have mentioned is superb but if I recall it's quite expensive and the information is readily available elsewhere if somebody is looking to purchase just one Emerald that doesn't break the bank. However, as Christmas is just around the corner (apologies for the reminder), it would make a great present.

 

[minousbijoux]

I disagree.
Emerald enhancements are a very complicated matter, I doubt there was any malice or mal intention from the suppliers side as most gemmologists are confused as to the treatment process
What advantage does 100 percent cedar wood oil have anyway ? It leaks out easier thats why virtually no one uses it in colombia anymore.
If you want information from a real expert on Treatments read Ron Ringsrud book Emeralds a passionate guide or see his website
emerald mine.com

I'm sorry but I disagree. If somebody is selling gemstones and has enough knowledge to reply as this vendor has, then one would be hard pressed to believe he/she doesn't understand treatments. Chrono is correct that treatments should be disclosed in a proper manner and not in a way that some of the information is difficult to understand or interpret. The normal language typically used when describing Emerald treatments/enhancements has been omitted by this seller.

+1 on this. There is no way this vendor doesn't know what they are saying. It was purposely obtuse, with the implication that the araldite is just an additive to improve the oil. That is clearly spinning the response to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear! There are clear cut categories for the treatment of emeralds and any vendor worth his/her credibility knows what they are.

 

[treasurehunter]

Yea I agree Palma oil should be disclosed
however most "Cedar wood oil" actually contains synthetic chemicals too so how would you disclose Cedar wood oil ? the same as cedar wood with palm oil , or cedar wood with synthetic oils.