Trapped in an upgrade policy?

[Igotarock]

Hello all I’m new to Pricescope and this is my first post. I purchased my wife’s diamond from a brick and mortar store and the upgrade policy requires us to spend twice as much for a new diamond. The current diamond is a 1 ct, looking to upgrade to 2ct by March. The problem is with the brick and mortar the quality that we’re looking for is very hard to come by, and the price is inflated. The brick and mortar is willing to give us 110% back on what we paid for the original diamond. We don’t wanna lose the close to 7000 I paid for it as that would greatly reduce the budget for the new diamond. However, we were wondering if buying and selling online would be a better option even if it would reduce our budget. Our budget, if we stuck with the brick and mortar would be about 23,000 before taxes. Online it would be more like 17,500 depending if we are able to sell the old diamond. Possibly more. Cut, then color is most important. We would like to stay in f color if possible. We just don’t know if that’s possible and if we should just stay with the brick and mortar. Thanks for any info you can give.

 

[rockysalamander]

Why don't you add your color and clarity desires to your 2 carat size and see what folks can find? That would give you a realistic idea of the relative costs. But, big picture, I'd take the 110% and run so I had full control on the outcome.

 

[OoohShiny]

Do they have a list of stones you can pick from?

Are all the stones AGS or GIA graded?

 

[SimoneDi]

Can you share the name of the retailer? Many times brick and mortar stones also can source well cut diamonds when they knowntjsg they are designed with a picky customer. Ideally, you should be able to use the value of the e-ring and put that toward an upgrade if you don’t want to start from scratch.
Also, don’t forget that you can always negotiate the brick and mortar store.

Tagging @msop04 as she upgraded through a brick and mortar store that offers similar upgrade policy a few times.

 

[Igotarock]

Why don't you add your color and clarity desires to your 2 carat size and see what folks can find? That would give you a realistic idea of the relative costs. But, big picture, I'd take the 110% and run so I had full control on the outcome.

F vs2 if possible would be preferred realistically not sure if that’s doable. We would have a bigger budget with the brick and mortar but again the quality isn’t great we wouldn’t be able to upgrade after this due to how the upgrade policy works, It would just be too expensive.

 

[Igotarock]

Do they have a list of stones you can pick from?

Are all the stones AGS or GIA graded?[/

We have asked for only AGS or GIA Stones and there have only been able to show one in the last three weeks possibly more. It wasn’t quite up to our specs for the price point. We don’t know if we are being unreasonable but it feels as if at this rate by March we will only be able to compare a couple of stones if we stick with this retailer.

 

[msop04]

Can you share the name of the retailer? Many times brick and mortar stones also can source well cut diamonds when they knowntjsg they are designed with a picky customer. Ideally, you should be able to use the value of the e-ring and put that toward an upgrade if you don’t want to start from scratch.
Also, don’t forget that you can always negotiate the brick and mortar store.

Tagging @msop04 as she upgraded through a brick and mortar store that offers similar upgrade policy a few times.

Hey! Thanks for tagging me. I use Diamonds Direct, and their upgrade policy is also 110% of what you paid towards a new stone. There are no "rules" as to how you can upgrade/change diamonds. The only thing you have to do is spend $1 more than what you paid on the last diamond. I know others have had issues with them wanting to offer just any old GIA XXX ("it's the best... you can't get any better than XXX" is what they like to tell you). Of course, we all know better than that. When I was upgrading from 2.43 ct last time, I had to give them very specific specs that I wanted when viewing possible new diamonds to be shown for upgrade. Since they were likely calling in stones from other stores, I told them to have no less than 5 with the desired specs for me to look at - they complied. My point is that you have to be willing to tell them what you want. When they start all the "GIA XXX is the best..." you can tell them that's fine, but I want these specs. Once I made that clear, the VP was my new SA. He eventually asked if I was on Pricescope because I was looking at very specific parameters. LOL

 

[Igotarock]

Can you share the name of the retailer? Many times brick and mortar stones also can source well cut diamonds when they knowntjsg they are designed with a picky customer. Ideally, you should be able to use the value of the e-ring and put that toward an upgrade if you don’t want to start from scratch.
Also, don’t forget that you can always negotiate the brick and mortar store.

Tagging @msop04 as she upgraded through a brick and mortar store that offers similar upgrade policy a few times.

It’s Robbins brothers. They’ve been good to us in the past, but after reading, we realized the quality isn’t that great. They did say they will NOT allow us to find stones on our own and have them bring them in, but the associate we’ve been texting hasn’t given us many options on their end at all. Add that to the fact that we probably wouldn’t be able to upgrade again due to the spend twice as much policy, it’s making us more picky than they would probably like to deal with.

 

[Igotarock]

Hey! Thanks for tagging me. I use Diamonds Direct, and their upgrade policy is also 110% of what you paid towards a new stone. There are no "rules" as to how you can upgrade/change diamonds. The only thing you have to do is spend $1 more than what you paid on the last diamond. I know others have had issues with them wanting to offer just any old GIA XXX ("it's the best... you can't get any better than XXX" is what they like to tell you). Of course, we all know better than that. When I was upgrading from 2.43 ct last time, I had to give them very specific specs that I wanted when viewing possible new diamonds to be shown for upgrade. Since they were likely calling in stones from other stores, I told them to have no less than 5 with the desired specs for me to look at - they complied. My point is that you have to be willing to tell them what you want. When they start all the "GIA XXX is the best..." you can tell them that's fine, but I want these specs. Once I made that clear, the VP was my new SA. He eventually asked if I was on Pricescope because I was looking at very specific parameters. LOL

Lol People have asked before if my Wife works in the diamond industry but it’s only because We’ve used some basic guidelines from pricescope. Sometimes it just feels like they think we’re being too picky and although they have been helping us they seem disinterested as there isn’t much incentive to help us. I don’t want to smear them because they have worked with us on two previous rings but on this one it’s not as if they will be making a whole lot of money for the amount of research we would likely want them to do to get the perfect stone.

 

[msop04]

Lol People have asked before if my Wife works in the diamond industry but it’s only because We’ve used some basic guidelines from pricescope. Sometimes it just feels like they think we’re being too picky and although they have been helping us they seem disinterested as there isn’t much incentive to help us. I don’t want to smear them because they have worked with us on two previous rings but on this one it’s not as if they will be making a whole lot of money for the amount of research we would likely want them to do to get the perfect stone.

Well, let what they think just be their business... I mean, quite frankly, who cares? It's your upgrade, so their job is to find what YOU ASK FOR, regardless of what they think. And they don't have to do any research other than find the specs you want. What they have most control over, unfortunately, is the price they charge.

 

[flyingpig]

Our budget, if we stuck with the brick and mortar would be about 23,000 before taxes. Online it would be more like 17,500 depending if we are able to sell the old diamond. Possibly more. Cut, then color is most important. We would like to stay in f color if possible. We just don’t know if that’s possible and if we should just stay with the brick and mortar. Thanks for any info you can give.

looking to upgrade to 2ct F vs2

Are you to provide us the GIA report number of the stone from RB that costs 23k and one from online that cost 17.5k?
For a well cut, F VS2 2ct, 23k is a more realistic number even online.
Lastly, fluorescence is extremely important when determining pricing in this carat range and color.

 

[msop04]

...and I know how you feel to a certain extent. Although the SA's at my DD are very nice, I had to really be firm about what I wanted. I can't really fault them though... they just don't know as much as PS members. LOL

 

[msop04]

Are you to provide us the GIA report number of the stone from RB that costs 23k and one from online that cost 17.5k?
For a well cut, F VS2 2ct, 23k is a more realistic number even online.

This is true... OP, if you were willing to go G and eye clean SI while maintaining a great cut, you could save thousands. Eye clean is eye clean... the cut, size, and color are what the unaided eye will see. G and F are soooo close. I'd at least consider G and maybe even H.

 

[flyingpig]

Actually, I may have mis-interpreted what the OP wrote.
Anyhow, the GIA number and the price of the new stone from RB would be really helpful to see if it's worth upgrading with RB.

 

[Igotarock]

Actually, I may have mis-interpreted what the OP wrote.
Anyhow, the GIA number and the price of the new stone from RB would be really helpful to see if it's worth upgrading with RB.

They never gave us the GIA number they just shot us a quick text with some basic info. 23,000 for an E color si2, 2.3 something ct. My wife thought the carat size was great, but wanted to save money going to f color. Si2 was a no because we heard it’s harder to find eye clean in a larger stone. We have an si2 now, but would like to get at least eyeclean on the new one. Are we expecting too much? They haven’t sent us anything since, and that has been the only option in our range. We don’t want to be a PITA to anyone we work with, which is why we have been texting instead of face-to-face (they also have very little in stock in the store). I’m afraid we are failing anyway lol.

 

[msop04]

They never gave us the GIA number they just shot us a quick text with some basic info. 23,000 for an E color si2, 2.3 something ct. My wife thought the carat size was great, but wanted to save money going to f color. Si2 was a no because we heard it’s harder to find eye clean in a larger stone. We have an si2 now, but would like to get at least eyeclean on the new one. Are we expecting too much? They haven’t sent us anything since, and that has been the only option in our range. We don’t want to be a PITA to anyone we work with, which is why we have been texting instead of face-to-face (they also have very little in stock in the store). I’m afraid we are failing anyway lol.

Just wanted to say that some SI2's are eye clean... I have one. And, no, you are not expecting too much. They are in the business to sell/make money, but if they cannot provide the customer with what they ask, then a sale will be much less likely.

ETA: Let them "work" for you... you are not a pain. This is their JOB.

 

[sledge]

What do you want to do?

I kind of read that you may be put out with them and want to move on, and maybe just looking for confirmation that it's okay to do that and not a bad idea. If I'm misinterpreting then I apologize.

The positive to ditching them now is you can cut your losses and move on. Generally speaking you may get about 50-60% of the retail price you paid for a diamond on the open market. Maybe slightly better if you are lucky, but I think this is a realistic expectation. If you were indeed price gouged, then this percentage will likely be lower.

If you have $7,000 wrapped up in the existing stone and you get 50% then you lost $3,500; however, you are now free to move onto a vendor with better pricing, better quality and better upgrade programs and maximize your losses to only $3,500. As much as this may sting, imagine the scenario if you are in bed to the tune of $23,000+ with the current B&M vendor and decide a 3 carat upgrade is desired. You will face the same dilemma, only with much bigger numbers.

However, if you never see going above this next upgrade, it's a moot point. And in this case, it would be best to use their 110% trade in policy to your advantage. Get $7,700 for your current diamond. Then utilize RareCarat or similar to identify current online pricing, and then hard negotiate with the B&M so you aren't paying inflated prices, but rather you are paying online prices. Additionally, you need to make a little noise so you can talk to a manager/owner and demand they work with you to get stones that meet YOUR cut criteria. If they give you flack, remind them YOU ARE THE CUSTOMER and buying from them IS A CHOICE, not a requirement! The goal would be to land an AGS000 stone; however, that is probably unlikely so we'd want to find you a GIA XXX that has ideal proportions that would meet AGS000 criteria if re-graded.

Hopefully between the 110% upgrade policy, savvy negotating and precise cut selection you end up with a gorgeous 2+ carat stone that is nothing short of magnificent and will put you in a better overall financial position.

 

[Igotarock]

You pretty much hit the nail on the head we are worried about the upgrade policy in the future with Robbins Brothers. She doesn’t know if she would want to go bigger in the future and is worried that that option would be lost if we stayed. Also in times we have actually gone into the store in the past, the cut quality is not in line with what pricescope seems to say to stick with, so we feel we may have to settle for less than great for over 20,000 with no way to upgrade any flaws in the future. By the way, That 7,000 includes the 110% upgrade policy since we paid a little over 6,200 for the original stone. We know online we could maybe save a significant amount on taxes as well, as apprised to Robbins Brothers,so we really aren’t sure where to go from here. It hurts to cut our budget so much though.

 

[sledge]

I might add that while finding an eye clean SI2 is possible, it is not necessarily easy or common. Also, as your diamond size increases, it's my opinion the clarity becomes a little more important as there is more diamond for people to focus on so things become more obvious.

It doesn't mean to give up on the option, just you may need to adjust to an SI1+ or be more patient and wait for the right inventory.

FYI, here are two stones that popped on RareCarat.

GIA XXX 2.15ct D SI2 - $20,379 (56 table, 61.8 depth, 35 crown, 40.6 pavilion, 75 LGF)
https://www.yadavjewelry.com/diamond/round-diamond-2.15-carat-d-si2-yd4046993

The proportions on this stone are pretty good. Looking at the video, it appears the crystals are clear as well. It gets you to a D color and just slightly smaller than the 2.3ct stone your B&M showed you for about $3k less. We don't know much about the stone they presented you, so I'm not sure how this compares but I'd think it's a reasonable comparison.


GIA XXX 2.11ct F SI1 - $19,582 (57 table, 62 depth, 35 crown, 40.8 pavilion, 80 LGF)
https://www.yadavjewelry.com/diamond/round-diamond-2.11-carat-f-si1-yd3478153

Table is fine, but I prefer the 56 on the above stone. Also, the 35 crown & 40.8 pavilion isn't as complimentary as the 35/40.6 combo and I'd expect some minor imperfections as a result. Although clarity is better at SI1, I would be concerned about the black crystals at the 7 o'clock position that is on the table and would want to confirm this stone to be eye clean. Regardless, of the imperfections, I still think this is a reasonable comparable to the stones you are being presented at the B&M.

 

[Igotarock]

Thank you everyone for your help so far.

 

[Igotarock]

I might add that while finding an eye clean SI2 is possible, it is not necessarily easy or common. Also, as your diamond size increases, it's my opinion the clarity becomes a little more important as there is more diamond for people to focus on so things become more obvious.

It doesn't mean to give up on the option, just you may need to adjust to an SI1+ or be more patient and wait for the right inventory.

FYI, here are two stones that popped on RareCarat.

GIA XXX 2.15ct D SI2 - $20,379 (56 table, 61.8 depth, 35 crown, 40.6 pavilion, 75 LGF)
https://www.yadavjewelry.com/diamond/round-diamond-2.15-carat-d-si2-yd4046993

The proportions on this stone are pretty good. Looking at the video, it appears the crystals are clear as well. It gets you to a D color and just slightly smaller than the 2.3ct stone your B&M showed you for about $3k less. We don't know much about the stone they presented you, so I'm not sure how this compares but I'd think it's a reasonable comparison.


GIA XXX 2.11ct F SI1 - $19,582 (57 table, 62 depth, 35 crown, 40.8 pavilion, 80 LGF)
https://www.yadavjewelry.com/diamond/round-diamond-2.11-carat-f-si1-yd3478153

Table is fine, but I prefer the 56 on the above stone. Also, the 35 crown & 40.8 pavilion isn't as complimentary as the 35/40.6 combo and I'd expect some minor imperfections as a result. Although clarity is better at SI1, I would be concerned about the black crystals at the 7 o'clock position that is on the table and would want to confirm this stone to be eye clean. Regardless, of the imperfections, I still think this is a reasonable comparable to the stones you are being presented at the B&M.

Thank you very much for these suggestions. We thought maybe everything would be out of our budget because when we look at Si stones they look bad online. We have one now and it’s fine, but we also don’t know what we’re really looking at int the inclusion plots, ie we don’t really understand how those inclusions would look in real life.

 

[flyingpig]

Assuming the E 2.3c SI2 is none/faint fluo, 23k is not unreasonable. Also, you are getting a full credit for your diamond, which you overpaid (6.2k for 1.0c SI2, regardless of color, is high). You are not gonna get 3.1k for your 1.0c SI2 if sold privately.
RB's price is not an issue here.
The most important question is "are they able to find a diamond that you like?" Since you have not really tried, you need to spend some time at a RB store and see what your options are. Please come back here with what RB is offering (price and GIA numbers). They should be willing to help you; your new diamond costs more than 3x the original.
I think you are overthinking at this point.

 

[sledge]

You pretty much hit the nail on the head we are worried about the upgrade policy in the future with Robbins Brothers. She doesn’t know if she would want to go bigger in the future and is worried that that option would be lost if we stayed. Also in times we have actually gone into the store in the past, the cut quality is not in line with what pricescope seems to say to stick with, so we feel we may have to settle for less than great for over 20,000 with no way to upgrade any flaws in the future. By the way, That 7,000 includes the 110% upgrade policy since we paid a little over 6,200 for the original stone. We know online we could maybe save a significant amount on taxes as well, as apprised to Robbins Brothers,so we really aren’t sure where to go from here. It hurts to cut our budget so much though.

Well, if you can avoid sales tax that helps your situation somewhat. Just some quick math:

• $20,000 new diamond x 6% tax (assumed) = $1,200
• $6,200 initial price x 50% = $3,100 expected + $1,200 tax savings = $4,800 to use
• $7,000 B&M trade in value - $4,800 cash/tax value = -$2,200 difference

As you can see, this math works out to be a few thousand difference and in a much, much better position in the long term. However, we must also consider where you will be buying from in the future. If you went with a super ideal like a WF ACA, you'd get ideal cut & true hearts & arrows diamonds with all the certs, images, etc to prove it.

Plus with a vendor like WF, they have real inventory they can pull from a vault. They aren't dealing in virtual inventory and some overseas supplier. These stones are located in Houston and one of their gemologist can pull them and review them on your behalf. Customer service will be top notch, and will be no problem to ship to you for inspection before setting.

Here are a few that pushes your budget bounds. As you can see, you pay a little more for super ideal quality but you get access to great stones, super customer service and killer upgrade programs (spend $1 more and get full credit of original purchase):

WF ACA 1.904ct G VS2 - $23,743
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4015037.htm

WF ACA 2.026ct G SI1 - $22,919
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4015037.htm

 

[Igotarock]

Assuming the E 2.3c SI2 is none/faint fluo, 23k is not unreasonable. Also, you are getting a full credit for your diamond, which you overpaid (6.2k for 1.0c SI2, regardless of color, is high). You are not gonna get 3.1k for your 1.0c SI2 if sold privately.
RB's price is not an issue here.
The most important question is "are they able to find a diamond that you like?" Since you have not really tried, you need to spend some time at a RB store and see what your options are. Please come back here with what RB is offering (price and GIA numbers). They should be willing to help you; your new diamond costs more than 3x the original.
I think you are overthinking at this point.

Perhaps, but we are just trying to go through the pros and cons of either staying with RB or just cutting our losses and going online with the better upgrade option. Once RB starts sending us info we will post it.

 

[Igotarock]

Well, if you can avoid sales tax that helps your situation somewhat. Just some quick math:

• $20,000 new diamond x 6% tax (assumed) = $1,200
• $6,200 initial price x 50% = $3,100 expected + $1,200 tax savings = $4,800 to use
• $7,000 B&M trade in value - $4,800 cash/tax value = -$2,200 difference

As you can see, this math works out to be a few thousand difference and in a much, much better position in the long term. However, we must also consider where you will be buying from in the future. If you went with a super ideal like a WF ACA, you'd get ideal cut & true hearts & arrows diamonds with all the certs, images, etc to prove it.

Plus with a vendor like WF, they have real inventory they can pull from a vault. They aren't dealing in virtual inventory and some overseas supplier. These stones are located in Houston and one of their gemologist can pull them and review them on your behalf. Customer service will be top notch, and will be no problem to ship to you for inspection before setting.

Here are a few that pushes your budget bounds. As you can see, you pay a little more for super ideal quality but you get access to great stones, super customer service and killer upgrade programs (spend $1 more and get full credit of original purchase):

That’s exactly what we have been doing going back-and-forth on whether we should cut our losses or not and go with something as mentioned above. Thank you for your suggestions we will keep all this in mind.

WF ACA 1.904ct G VS2 - $23,743
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4015037.htm

WF ACA 2.026ct G SI1 - $22,919
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4015037.htm

 

[Queenie60]

Is keeping the stone an option? You can keep the existing stone, have it set into a pendant for a special occasion one day? Then find a nice stone online with a vendor that offers a great upgrade policy such as Whiteflash, then gradually upgrade over the years? Just a thought. I wish you luck in whatever you chose to do.

 

[nala]

Is keeping the stone an option? You can keep the existing stone, have it set into a pendant for a special occasion one day? Then find a nice stone online with a vendor that offers a great upgrade policy such as Whiteflash, then gradually upgrade over the years? Just a thought. I wish you luck in whatever you chose to do.

This. If only. I had done this. However. This is not to say I am unhappy but it was a long road to get here. You will have to be very selective. 17k is a ton of money. They better bend over to please you and you should not settle for less. This does not make you a pita. That’s what I did. I finally demanded the exact parameters for my stone from my beloved jeweler who was making me feel like I was being a pita. But I’m so glad that I did because prior to that, my upgrades had left me feeling like sucker.
So, if you think you can get what you want without settling for less, use the trade up. Give them a chance. Go to the top to get what you want. If they still can’t produce what you want, take a loss and sell outside or keep it as a pendant. Something tells me your so is a true PSer who might enjoy starting a collection. Or maybe make it a 3 stone for now. But I would not pay over 17k to be unhappy. If you dropped to an H or I, you could keep your pendant and your 2 ct. bc diamond prices are low right now. If you go with whiteflash, you can try out the I to test your color limit And slowly upgrade. Actually. I would go this route rather than back to Robbins’s.

 

[Snowdrop13]

Is the current stone certified? What colour is it? I tend to agree with @nala why not consider a lower colour, which should face up pretty white in a superideal anyway, then work up if you want to? Here’s a 2.3ct I in the budget range you’re talking about,

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4018656.htm

 

[msop04]

If you dropped to an H or I, you could keep your pendant and your 2 ct. bc diamond prices are low right now.

Total threadjack here, but are diamond prices low now?? They had been super high, and this is the first I'd heard of them being low.

 

[Snowdrop13]

Looks like it depends on what size the diamond is!