Transgender bathroom rights are going down the toilet

[the_mother_thing]

Because that's not the facility that corresponds with their gender identity. If you HAD to use the men's restroom you might be uncomfortable with that, because you'd feel as though that wasn't your "correct" restroom based on your gender. Their legal gender isn't what they feel, it isn't what they agree with, and they are distressed by that. So their legal gender is irrelevant here, IMHO.

I have been in situations - several times - where I had to use a men's restroom (women's was closed, long line/couldn't wait, etc). I wasn't harassed, assaulted, etc. I did my business and left. It was nature's call; not a date. Having the opposite gender's anatomy would be a bigger 'discomfort' for me when using the bathroom 10 times a day; not which bathroom I was using for nature's call. And again, there ARE laws in place to protect someone who is 'mistreated'. So this is about comfort and how an individual feels through no fault or action of anyone or anything else. That is a 'coping issue' where counseling to help manage feelings would probably be helpful. And I am not trying to be or sound insensitive about it; I understand it's deeply personal to that person. But you cannot legislate 'feelings'; only 'actions'.

Legal gender is absolutely relevant and central to this topic. You cannot dismiss the legality of something while also insisting that there be a law or protection addressing it because any law or protection would require or prescribe a definition of 'gender', and that definition needs to be specific enough to enable enforcement by the courts, as that is where any related offenses would be judged. That is what NC was doing by referring to 'biological gender' in HB2, which IMO should have been stated as 'legal' gender instead of 'biological' gender.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Because that's not the facility that corresponds with their gender identity. If you HAD to use the men's restroom you might be uncomfortable with that, because you'd feel as though that wasn't your "correct" restroom based on your gender. Their legal gender isn't what they feel, it isn't what they agree with, and they are distressed by that. So their legal gender is irrelevant here, IMHO.

Furthermore, what you are suggesting - that people 'act' based on what they 'feel' or are 'distressed' by - is a VERY dangerous precedent to set. People are distressed by all sorts of things; that doesn't give them the right (legal or otherwise) to act on those feelings in ways that create 'distress' for others.

 

[momhappy]

People like my friend who are in the process of transitioning or who may not have the resources to look a certain way need their rights to be protected. They are the ones who face descrimination every day.

Probably an unpopular opinion, but victims of sexual assault will face triggers in unpredictable places. We can't discriminate against a group of people because someone may be triggered by their presence. Trans people may be triggered by using the bathroom of the gender they don't identify with. It can't be a battle of who's more traumatized.

I don't mean this question the way it will probably come across on a forum: how is your friend not "protected" today? Is your friend living in a country that does not have laws preventing discrimination, assault, battery, etc., whereby additional 'protections' are necessary? I guess I don't quite understand how people are actually being discriminated against by their use of the facility that corresponds with their legal gender.

I think the issue of 'triggers' could probably be it's own thread entirely.

Because that's not the facility that corresponds with their gender identity. If you HAD to use the men's restroom you might be uncomfortable with that, because you'd feel as though that wasn't your "correct" restroom based on your gender. Their legal gender isn't what they feel, it isn't what they agree with, and they are distressed by that. So their legal gender is irrelevant here, IMHO.

And what if a 12 year-old girl is told that she HAS to share her locker room with a boy. She might be uncomfortable with that because she doesn't feel like she should undress/shower/change with a member of the opposite sex and she is distressed by that. What about her feelings? Do they not matter? We can not change an entire system based on feelings of distress. Legal gender is absolutely relevant here or we wouldn't even be having this discussion in the first place.

 

[bunnycat]

Have y'all ever had transgender friends? I mean actual friends and not just a vague idea in your mind what trans people are? I do and have. People that were born male, but in all ways act and dress and have been physically altered towards female. People that were born female, but act, dress and have physically sculpted themselves towards male. Their born identity means nothing at that point. If someone who LOOKED, acted and sounded male or female walked in to the opposite restroom (because their born gender was the opposite) don't you think that would appear problematic and possibly open that person up to harm? (I mainly would fear for a transgender female going in to a male restroom because they were born male.)

 

[missy]

Have y'all ever had transgender friends? I mean actual friends and not just a vague idea in your mind what trans people are? I do and have. People that were born male, but in all ways act and dress and have been physically altered towards female. People that were born female, but act, dress and have physically sculpted themselves towards male. Their born identity means nothing at that point. If someone who LOOKED, acted and sounded male or female walked in to the opposite restroom (because their born gender was the opposite) don't you think that would appear problematic?

Exactly. It only shows (those of you who don't get it) your lack of understanding on this critical issue if you can say what about so and so's rights. Their legal gender is not who they *are* and not what they *live*. They are "trapped" in the *wrong* body! Where is your sensitivity and caring for these people? Please stop saying but and what about and let's look at these facts. Legal gender assignment means nothing if that is not who you are.

 

[bunnycat]

Have y'all ever had transgender friends? I mean actual friends and not just a vague idea in your mind what trans people are? I do and have. People that were born male, but in all ways act and dress and have been physically altered towards female. People that were born female, but act, dress and have physically sculpted themselves towards male. Their born identity means nothing at that point. If someone who LOOKED, acted and sounded male or female walked in to the opposite restroom (because their born gender was the opposite) don't you think that would appear problematic?

Exactly. It only shows (those of you who don't get it) your lack of understanding on this critical issue if you can say what about so and so's rights. Their legal gender is not who they *are* and not what they *live*. They are "trapped" in the *wrong* body! Where is your sensitivity and caring for these people? Please stop saying but and what about and let's look at these facts. Legal gender assignment means nothing if that is not who you are.

And not everyone who is gay is trans. It's a relatively small minority of people, but if someone LOOKS like a girl (even if my gaygar goes off. ) I'm not going to be offended if they go to the girls room.

PS- It's campy- but I recommend watching Priscilla Queen of the Desert....

 

[momhappy]

Have y'all ever had transgender friends? I mean actual friends and not just a vague idea in your mind what trans people are? I do and have. People that were born male, but in all ways act and dress and have been physically altered towards female. People that were born female, but act, dress and have physically sculpted themselves towards male. Their born identity means nothing at that point. If someone who LOOKED, acted and sounded male or female walked in to the opposite restroom (because their born gender was the opposite) don't you think that would appear problematic?

Yes, this is currently being discussed....and I understand that to a trans person, their born identity might not mean anything to them. However, that doesn't mean that it's irrelevant to this issue. Just because a trans person might be more comfortable in the bathroom and/or locker room of the gender that they identify with, does not necessarily mean that everyone else in that bathroom and/or locker room shares that same comfort level. This is about who's rights and/or comfort levels are more important and why? There are arguments on both sides and I can understand both. I get that a trans person might feel more comfortable in a bathroom and/or locker room of the gender that they identify with. However, I can also understand why some people might feel uncomfortable about sharing those spaces with members of the opposite sex. Tis issue isn't just about bathrooms (despite how it is often titled) - it includes public locker rooms. It can be problematic on both sides of the issue.

 

[missy]

Have y'all ever had transgender friends? I mean actual friends and not just a vague idea in your mind what trans people are? I do and have. People that were born male, but in all ways act and dress and have been physically altered towards female. People that were born female, but act, dress and have physically sculpted themselves towards male. Their born identity means nothing at that point. If someone who LOOKED, acted and sounded male or female walked in to the opposite restroom (because their born gender was the opposite) don't you think that would appear problematic?

Exactly. It only shows (those of you who don't get it) your lack of understanding on this critical issue if you can say what about so and so's rights. Their legal gender is not who they *are* and not what they *live*. They are "trapped" in the *wrong* body! Where is your sensitivity and caring for these people? Please stop saying but and what about and let's look at these facts. Legal gender assignment means nothing if that is not who you are.

And not everyone who is gay is trans. It's a relatively small minority of people, but if someone LOOKS like a girl (even if my gaygar goes off. ) I'm not going to be offended if they go to the girls room.

PS- It's campy- but I recommend watching Priscilla Queen of the Desert....

Haha saw it and loved it. Decades ago. Perhaps time for a rewatch. And the music. Awesome.


And another reason I vote for UNISEX bathrooms. Everyone get over yourselves and just deal with it. UNISEX bathrooms make sense IMO. Now if only we could get those stall walls down to the floor most everyone would be more comfortable.

 

[lovedogs]

Have y'all ever had transgender friends? I mean actual friends and not just a vague idea in your mind what trans people are? I do and have. People that were born male, but in all ways act and dress and have been physically altered towards female. People that were born female, but act, dress and have physically sculpted themselves towards male. Their born identity means nothing at that point. If someone who LOOKED, acted and sounded male or female walked in to the opposite restroom (because their born gender was the opposite) don't you think that would appear problematic?

Exactly. It only shows (those of you who don't get it) your lack of understanding on this critical issue if you can say what about so and so's rights. Their legal gender is not who they *are* and not what they *live*. They are "trapped" in the *wrong* body! Where is your sensitivity and caring for these people? Please stop saying but and what about and let's look at these facts. Legal gender assignment means nothing if that is not who you are.

Thank you both! Yes!

 

[momhappy]

Where is the sensitivity and caring for a survivor of sexual assault, who feels distressed with a member of the opposite sex in her bathroom/locker room? Should they just get over it???
Just because someone can understand that this issue is problematic on many levels, doesn't mean that they lack sensitivity and caring Do we need to start with the name-calling? It's not about "getting it" or "not getting it" - it's about the fact that this issue is complicated. If there was a simple solution to the problem, then we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.

 

[the_mother_thing]

If someone who LOOKED, acted and sounded male or female walked in to the opposite restroom (because their born gender was the opposite) don't you think that would appear problematic and possibly open that person up to harm? (I mainly would fear for a transgender female going in to a male restroom because they were born male.)

There already ARE laws that 'protect' that person from 'problems/harm' whether in a bathroom or elsewhere. If they are assaulted, harassed, etc, there IS legal recourse already - you call the police, file a complaint, sue the person, etc.

I've been in 12 car accidents - none of which have been my fault. As a result, I have anxiety driving, get panic attacks when driving, and do not at all feel comfortable being on the road. That doesn't give me the right to require everyone else to 'clear a path' for me, or for the government (local or federal) to provide additional protection for me when I'm on the road. It is incumbent on me to develop and practice coping skills and deal with my anxiety. And if/when someone else is careless and hits me, I have legal recourse to sue them for damages and for them to be penalized (civilly & criminally, if they are drunk, texting, etc). While the circumstances are different, the principle argument is absolutely the same here - trying to legislate individuals' 'feelings'.

That does not make me insensitive to others' feelings any more than it makes every other driver on the road insensitive to MY feelings.

 

[missy]

That proves the point I was making before. If you think comparing one's very identity to something like anxiety while driving well enough said. I'm taking kenny's recommendations to heart. Sharing my thoughts and that is enough because some of you don't really listen or care to try to get it.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Do we need to start with the name-calling? It's not about "getting it" or "not getting it" - it's about the fact that this issue is complicated. If there was a simple solution to the problem, then we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.

EXACTLY! I would LOVE to tell a lot of people to "get over it, it's my right" on a host of matters, but I don't ... because I AM sensitive to others' feelings and rights.

Name calling is no better than shaming someone for who/what they are.

 

[missy]

Ha I'm sorry I can't resist and have to respond. Kenny I'm a poor pupil.

Jenn, you and momhappy are just not the poster children for sensitivity despite what you keep saying. I'm sorry and I am truly not trying to be argumentative but I just don't believe or see that. Based on both of your posts throughout the time you have been posting on PS. I still remember when momhappy said to Elliot to leave a starving wet kitten who needed shelter and help outside in the rain and cold. Sorry I don't want to pick on anyone but this is how I see it. Right or wrong. I am seeing what I am being shown. By both of you.

 

[redwood66]

Ha I'm sorry I can't resist and have to respond. Kenny I'm a poor pupil.

Jenn, you and momhappy are just not the poster children for sensitivity despite what you keep saying. I'm sorry and I am truly not trying to be argumentative but I just don't believe or see that. Based on both of your posts throughout the time you have been posting on PS. I still remember when momhappy said to Elliot to leave a starving wet kitten who needed shelter and help outside in the rain and cold. Sorry I don't want to pick on anyone but this is how I see it. Right or wrong. I am seeing what I am being shown. By both of you.

This is a quite intolerant view from an otherwise very nice person. You should have let it go and "get over it" when someone does not have the same lock step opinion that you and the majority here have. Agree to disagree.

 

[missy]

Yes Redwood, I am intolerant of intolerance.

 

[the_mother_thing]

That proves the point I was making before. If you think comparing one's very identity to something like anxiety while driving well enough said.

Your comments here - minimizing my anxiety - are insensitive and show your own selective lack of compassion/empathy. My anxiety nearly caused me to have a multi-car pile up inside the Baltimore harbor tunnel over Christmas. It keeps me from traveling to see my family and friends as much as I'd like and sometimes need to (like earlier this month when my mother was in the hospital). It is the primary reason I work from home vs. an office. I sometimes incur additional expenses as a result of it by arranging for alternative transportation. It impacts my daily personal, social and professional life. Just because you don't understand or experience it does not make it any less important and VERY real/personal to me.

 

[redwood66]

Yes Redwood, I am intolerant of intolerance.

I could say the same about everyone who requires the bending to their point of view.

 

[E B]

We can go back and forth about whose feelings matter more, but the reality is that transgender people are at a higher risk of being assaulted. I read a statistic the other day that said that when polled, 1 in 3 don't eat or drink when out for fear of being yelled at or assaulted in the "wrong" bathroom, whichever that is, so they try to make sure they don't have to go at all. It was said before but again, it wasn't an issue until the bathroom hysteria started for reason corresponding to any increase in attacks. The vast majority want to get in and get out without attracting attention. Why would someone risk being yelled at or beaten for being in the "wrong" room?

Statistics documenting transgender people's experience of sexual violence indicate shockingly high levels of sexual abuse and assault. One in two transgender individuals are sexually abused or assaulted at some point in their lives.1 Some reports estimate that transgender survivors may experience rates of sexual assault up to 66 percent, often coupled with physical assaults or abuse.2 This indicates that the majority of transgender individuals are living with the aftermath of trauma and the fear of possible repeat victimization.


It's a solution in search of a problem. I just can't see how it's at all needed, and it's certainly caused a lot of fear over something it shouldn't have.

 

[missy]

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them"

 

[missy]

That proves the point I was making before. If you think comparing one's very identity to something like anxiety while driving well enough said.

Your comments here - minimizing my anxiety - are insensitive and show your own selective lack of compassion/empathy. My anxiety nearly caused me to have a multi-car pile up inside the Baltimore harbor tunnel over Christmas. It keeps me from traveling to see my family and friends as much as I'd like and sometimes need to (like earlier this month when my mother was in the hospital). It is the primary reason I work from home vs. an office. I sometimes incur additional expenses as a result of it by arranging for alternative transportation. It impacts my daily personal, social and professional life. Just because you don't understand or experience it does not make it any less important and VERY real/personal to me.

Yes but we are not talking about you here Jenn. I'm sorry for your trauma and for your pain and anxiety however now we are speaking of transgendered individuals who are experiencing great pain and torment. It's time for them to be treated as human beings deserving of the same rights and privileges as a non transgendered individual.

 

[redwood66]

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them"

Catchy quote. I was taken back by your words because that is not like you. I would expect it from others but not you. That tells me that this subject is a heated one for you. Please have a good day.

 

[missy]

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them"

Catchy quote. I was taken back by your words because that is not like you. I would expect it from others but not you. That tells me that this subject is a heated one for you. Please have a good day.

You too Redwood. And yes topics involving human and animal rights are passionate ones for me. I won't apologize for that.

 

[OreoRosies86]

Ha I'm sorry I can't resist and have to respond. Kenny I'm a poor pupil.

Jenn, you and momhappy are just not the poster children for sensitivity despite what you keep saying. I'm sorry and I am truly not trying to be argumentative but I just don't believe or see that. Based on both of your posts throughout the time you have been posting on PS. I still remember when momhappy said to Elliot to leave a starving wet kitten who needed shelter and help outside in the rain and cold. Sorry I don't want to pick on anyone but this is how I see it. Right or wrong. I am seeing what I am being shown. By both of you.

And now she's the happiest cat in all the land

How wonderful life would be if we treated everyone like a friend to be helped.

 

[redwood66]

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them"

Catchy quote. I was taken back by your words because that is not like you. I would expect it from others but not you. That tells me that this subject is a heated one for you. Please have a good day.

You too Redwood. And yes topics involving human and animal rights are passionate ones for me. I won't apologize for that.

I understand, but try not to assume that someone else does not have those same passions because they see something from a different POV. You made a very wide generalization about the character of both JCJ and momhappy based on what they have posted here.

 

[missy]

Ha I'm sorry I can't resist and have to respond. Kenny I'm a poor pupil.

Jenn, you and momhappy are just not the poster children for sensitivity despite what you keep saying. I'm sorry and I am truly not trying to be argumentative but I just don't believe or see that. Based on both of your posts throughout the time you have been posting on PS. I still remember when momhappy said to Elliot to leave a starving wet kitten who needed shelter and help outside in the rain and cold. Sorry I don't want to pick on anyone but this is how I see it. Right or wrong. I am seeing what I am being shown. By both of you.

And now she's the happiest cat in all the land

How wonderful life would be if we treated everyone like a friend to be helped.

True dat!

I heart you Elliot. You and Oreo. (((Hugs))).

 

[bunnycat]

I actually do understand what people are saying about feeling uncomfortable. I'm also suggesting that you are projecting your past on to something that may not be so.

I have been assaulted in the past (by a male). I have many male friends, some of whom are gay, a couple who have cross dressed, and one complicated case who was born male, identified as female, and sexually oriented as "straight" in relation to their born gender...very complicated situation. Personally, I am happy with my gender and so I understand the concept of NOT being happy with your gender to the point of spending tens of thousands of dollars on medical treatment and being willing to spend years under psychiatric care while you do it because you believe you are really another gender is difficult.

Now, the fear I am seeing laid on is that if a person who has had/is having gender reassignment might assault you because they HAD been male at some point might assault merely because they were born male and are in "your" bathroom. And the point I am making is that they actually don't consider themselves male anymore. They spend years going through hormone therapy (yes, years...), years of voice retraining to sound female, dress female, spend $$$KKK on reconstructive surgery (the first is generally removal of their testicles and I know 2 people who had this done as the first major transition). It is HIGHLY unlikely this person wants to assault you. They want to be your girl friend....If they can afford it, they don't have male appendages, they have boobs. That makes having to go in a man's bathroom very dangerous for them because of what their personal choices imply.

ANd while you are are correct that in theory there are laws, that doesn't help much if you died because of someone's hate....

I would also add I have flaming gay friends who are male, identify as male, and wouldn't use the women's room (though they defend tooth and nail the right of a trans person to). And lesbian friends who identify as female and use the ladies restroom (even if they lean "butch"). There's a broad spectrum to gender rather than just the narrow black and white either/or male female.

I just feel like people lump anyone who is not like them as "other" without trying to understand the specifics.

 

[redwood66]

As EB said this is a solution looking for a problem. If bureaucrats had not gotten involved then it would not be an issue. But since it is now an issue it must be worked out in the court system and we will all have to abide by what happens.

 

[bunnycat]

As EB said this is a solution looking for a problem. If bureaucrats had not gotten involved then it would not be an issue. But since it is now an issue it must be worked out in the court system and we will all have to abide by what happens.

I surely agree with this part!

It's my opinion, if you had NO idea a person was trans and they went in to "your" bathroom, you'd probably not really know or think too hard about it. I've certainly known people born female that could easily pass as male in looks and dress, and people born as male that could pass for female just by looks and dress. I just happen to prefer to leave it at that.

 

[momhappy]

Ha I'm sorry I can't resist and have to respond. Kenny I'm a poor pupil.

Jenn, you and momhappy are just not the poster children for sensitivity despite what you keep saying. I'm sorry and I am truly not trying to be argumentative but I just don't believe or see that. Based on both of your posts throughout the time you have been posting on PS. I still remember when momhappy said to Elliot to leave a starving wet kitten who needed shelter and help outside in the rain and cold. Sorry I don't want to pick on anyone but this is how I see it. Right or wrong. I am seeing what I am being shown. By both of you.

I don't recall telling anyone to leave a starving kitten in the rain....and I didn't know you felt that way about me, missy. I'm sorry that you do. I guess I'm done here and maybe I should consider taking a break. Have a nice day everyone.