Trade member participation - more, less or about right?

[rockysalamander]

deleted my response to the troll from the 1950s mind-set.

 

[Matthews1127]

deleted my response to the troll from the 1950s mind-set.

 

[VegasInanHour]

Why would any scientific discussion ' scare off' any female posters, would you care to explain please?

You misread my paragraph and the message completely.

Arguments and heated discourse is discouraged here, heavy moderation has occurred in the past and many threads contain moderator comments such as "Keep it civil or I will lock this thread" and the very subjective 'personal attacks' or 'negativity' rule is selectively enforced. Some sponsoring trademembers years ago were extremely rude to other trade and prosumers and were given wide latitude to do so without being censured.

You would have to ask the moderators why everyone has to sing "Cumbaya" here but that has certainly chased away many technically minded posters.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I would like to see more trade people here. Well behaved sellers, cutters, appraisers, all sorts of experts.
Also if there is a desire to Ask The Expert - I am happy to try my best.
I am not a PS seller, am a trinket and diamond flogger, but do not and never have sought clients from PS. that's because I am part of the PS team and have no desire to compete or disrupt sales.
Without the vendors there would be no PS. I would like more vendors to participate, not just when the upset a PS shopper and come to sort it out (which is great to).

Sergey and the old Troll - there was a lot of controversy prior to and around the launch time of GIA and AGS cut grades 13 years ago. It was great stuff, and a lot of trade learned a lot, even though most were lurkers.
We also "trained" heaps of you - and a few of those trainees ended up in the trade - JohnP and Karl for e.g.
Michael Cowing and I had a furious debate about fluorescence - I have a nice little collection of gadgets to shoot him down, but not enough time to do the experiments and so many other projects ahead. (you'all gunna love the one I am working on now).

So maybe new thread with a poll of a list of questions?
We could put those ?'s to other experts who do not currently post as well?
What I mean is how do we move forward?
Or is the answer to Bryan's excellent post - the status quo is perfect?

 

[diagem]

WRT the ideal cut vs 'buy with your eyes' argument, it feels to me like MRBs are now falling into the former camp due to the current levels of focus on light performance analysis available, but stepcuts, cushions and vintage(-y) round cuts do seem to fall into the latter, in that they may have not-great ASET or IS images but could still look beautiful in real life, with motion and stereoscopic viewing. I find it interesting that @diagem doesn't offer ASET/IS images with his stones, for example, as his stones are surely beautiful ( ) but I am wondering if they might not have the sort of empirical light performance analysis results that would be seen in modern-style cuts! Perhaps @Jimmianne or @Matthews1127 might be able/willing to take some ASET images of their amazing Yoram stones? (If Yoram would be happy for them to do so??)

Thank you @OoohShiny for tagging me on this thread. It's a very interesting question.

Even though both the Diamond subjects you are asking about (in this case, the Vintage Asscher Cut Diamonds belonging to both @Matthews and @Jimmianne) were not planned based on their potential Aset results, your question got my curiosity going, so I decided to go and check how their Aset’s came out. (yes, believe it or not, I never checked before)

The results were surprising to me as well.


As PriceScope participators know well, I do and did cut Diamonds to specific light performance results (3D optical symmetry cuts) which are reflective on both their AGS reports and also tools such as Aset and even the more stringent…, real live ETAS results (not virtual based). Since I don't cut generic round brilliants, our light performance cuts are mainly various fancy shapes (Signature Cuts) which are much more complicated to achieve. This translates to very expensive products which not everyone understands the level of complications it takes to cut such products successfully, thus the real value behind the work.


At a certain point I decided to re-focus mainly on our Period Cut offerings which are based more on old-world designs in conjunction with my present knowledge in Diamond’s light behaviour etc.... In such cases I design, plan and cut based simply on my and my client’s taste in beautiful & classic Diamonds. (No scoring numbers involved).


Since @Matthews did show interest in participating in this thread and is willing to show Aset images of her Asscher Cuts, I took it upon myself to randomly pick four similar Asscher Cuts in quarter carat size (3.50mm) which I have and check their Aset results based on a scan and Diamcalc translation of the scan. Please take into consideration these four 1/4 carat Vintage style Asscher Cuts were cut basically with no technology tools during the cutting process itself. Their precision is nowhere near our 3D optical symmetry cuts, but their results in real life speak for themselves and now after checking their respective ASET results which further confirms their play-of-light potential…, especially when in motion as Diamonds usually are.

In case Jimmianne chooses to share her Aset as well, i also have the srn. file which I can post as well.


Here are the Aset results of the four randomly picked Vintage Asscher Cut Diamonds. First row on top are their face-up position results, every row after consists of as Aset at 5 degree intervals (e.g. face-up - 5 - 10 - 15 degree tilts.)

 

[psadmin]

Since you asked for it, here it is:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/faq-and-ask-the-experts.240660/

Ask the Experts series starts with HCA Here:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/all-about-the-hca-holloway-cut-advisor.240661/

Have fun.

 

[Lorelei]

This is great, thanks so much Andrey!

 

[Matthews1127]

Thank you @OoohShiny for tagging me on this thread. It's a very interesting question.

Even though both the Diamond subjects you are asking about (in this case, the Vintage Asscher Cut Diamonds belonging to both @Matthews and @Jimmianne) were not planned based on their potential Aset results, your question got my curiosity going, so I decided to go and check how their Aset’s came out. (yes, believe it or not, I never checked before)

The results were surprising to me as well.


As PriceScope participators know well, I do and did cut Diamonds to specific light performance results (3D optical symmetry cuts) which are reflective on both their AGS reports and also tools such as Aset and even the more stringent…, real live ETAS results (not virtual based). Since I don't cut generic round brilliants, our light performance cuts are mainly various fancy shapes (Signature Cuts) which are much more complicated to achieve. This translates to very expensive products which not everyone understands the level of complications it takes to cut such products successfully, thus the real value behind the work.


At a certain point I decided to re-focus mainly on our Period Cut offerings which are based more on old-world designs in conjunction with my present knowledge in Diamond’s light behaviour etc.... In such cases I design, plan and cut based simply on my and my client’s taste in beautiful & classic Diamonds. (No scoring numbers involved).


Since @Matthews did show interest in participating in this thread and is willing to show Aset images of her Asscher Cuts, I took it upon myself to randomly pick four similar Asscher Cuts in quarter carat size (3.50mm) which I have and check their Aset results based on a scan and Diamcalc translation of the scan. Please take into consideration these four 1/4 carat Vintage style Asscher Cuts were cut basically with no technology tools during the cutting process itself. Their precision is nowhere near our 3D optical symmetry cuts, but their results in real life speak for themselves and now after checking their respective ASET results which further confirms their play-of-light potential…, especially when in motion as Diamonds usually are.

In case Jimmianne chooses to share her Aset as well, i also have the srn. file which I can post as well.


Here are the Aset results of the four randomly picked Vintage Asscher Cut Diamonds. First row on top are their face-up position results, every row after consists of as Aset at 5 degree intervals (e.g. face-up - 5 - 10 - 15 degree tilts.)

Spectacular, @diagem!!! So beautiful!! Thank you so much for sharing! I doubt I have the skill to get images like these ASETs that you took the time to post for all of us! However, that doesn’t mean I won’t practice...lol!
I am just amazed at how vivid & bright these stones are! I can only imagine how brilliant the ASET images would be of all 7 of mine!!
IRL, these diamonds are simply breathtaking! They are superior performers, and, quite honestly, I’ve never seen anything like them, anywhere!
Thank you, again, for sharing!!!
I definitely need to start playing around with scopes & loupes!!

 

[Serg]

@Serg - why do you feel this way? Do you feel PS is not a good forum to share and discuss technical aspects of diamonds with other trade people? Are there better forums out there? Or do you feel trade people are 'set in their ways' and not open to alternative viewpoints?

Time is very expensive. If I spend time to share my vision and discuss technical aspects on PS then I have to receive something to compensate my time expenses.

1) I do not sell a diamonds , so sales is not option to compensate my PS time expenses .
2)Also I dis not receive many interesting for me technical information on PS last 5-10 years. Mainly trade members publish same information that they published 10 year ago.
15 years ago the concept of High Optical performance Round cut had some ( a little bit) novelty.
We had discussions about head obscuration, symmetry, Dead Ring, stereoscopic vision, optical illusions,. and mistakes in GIA, AGS cut grading systems. ( Even 10 years ago I had been very heavy attacked from many PS trade members around 10 years ago when I tried to explain critical mistakes in AGS technical and business approaches )
I could still publish new information about Diamond beauty , but I have not any motivation to do it on PS. PS has not strong group to discuss fancy cuts beauty, Human vision,.. etc.
All discussions are almost same and weak. So do not receive new interesting for me ideas if I publish new my ideas. There is not any valid exchange for me.

3) Most PS trade members are very conservative now and sell mostly ASET, IS, H*A images instead Diamond Beauty. Diamond Beauty comes from Optical Illusions . Optical Illusions are very important For Brilliancy , Brilliancy is USP of diamonds.
most diamond sales persons can not say to consumer "we sell you a diamond that creates a Optical Illusion " .
it is a nightmare for diamond sales persons.
In same time if you say "a painting create Illusion of sunny day ", it increases a cost of the painting .

so fun is absent also. it is very difficult now for me to enjoy by PS "technical" discussions

4) PS is minor player in diamond word.

anything else?

 

[MarionC]

In case Jimmianne chooses to share her Aset as well, i also have the srn. file which I can post as well.



I do want to share
Of course.

I bought an aset scope which I find challenging so I would love to see the expert aset posted hereI
By the way, my asscher is not just a pretty face, it’s an interesting diamond that continues to delight, so thank you once again.

Do you ever take photos of a rough before cutting is started? Would that I had a photo of the rough! But I will certainly be content to see the ASET.

 

[oldminer]

I'm glad there is an overall good sentiment expressed about trade support levels in the forum. I suppose most of the "experts" stick to Rocky Talky for the most part. There has been a long run of good questions and answers during my many years of participation. It has been gratifying for me to see the tremendous increase of shared knowledge among participants and among a younger generation of connected and involved diamond and jewelry shoppers. I have tried mostly to add my 2 cents worth of advice where it might help to correct possibly wrong advice already given, or to help shape attitudes where we seem to be going off-track before we totally derail. Best of all, I have learned a lot myself from many other participants, both experts and pro-sumers. Understanding often runs in both directions if you keep an open mind.

Sometimes the great advice comes from experienced consumers, but occasionally more temperate advice is shared by long time professionals. It depends on the question, the circumstances and the needs of the person posing the question. Every thread has the potential to teach others and to share knowledge. It all needs to be worthy of spending the time to read and learn. So long as the agenda of professionals is given freely, in a reasonably unbiased way and without a direct profit motive, then it seems to be mostly helpful. Professionals need to use restraint in self-promotion. Those of us who have stayed active here over the years seem to have struck a decent balance with common sense rules of etiquette and several who were once far more active have gone off to other places and causes which work for better with their possibly more aggressive approach.

From my appraisal work out in the retail arena, I still see the vast majority of consumers still needing a whole lot more education and understanding. There many more consumers to be helped and we are really well equipped here to do that for those who find us.

 

[yssie]

Time is very expensive. If I spend time to share my vision and discuss technical aspects on PS then I have to receive something to compensate my time expenses.

1) I do not sell a diamonds , so sales is not option to compensate my PS time expenses .
2)Also I dis not receive many interesting for me technical information on PS last 5-10 years. Mainly trade members publish same information that they published 10 year ago.
15 years ago the concept of High Optical performance Round cut had some ( a little bit) novelty.
We had discussions about head obscuration, symmetry, Dead Ring, stereoscopic vision, optical illusions,. and mistakes in GIA, AGS cut grading systems. ( Even 10 years ago I had been very heavy attacked from many PS trade members around 10 years ago when I tried to explain critical mistakes in AGS technical and business approaches )
I could still publish new information about Diamond beauty , but I have not any motivation to do it on PS. PS has not strong group to discuss fancy cuts beauty, Human vision,.. etc.
All discussions are almost same and weak. So do not receive new interesting for me ideas if I publish new my ideas. There is not any valid exchange for me.

3) Most PS trade members are very conservative now and sell mostly ASET, IS, H*A images instead Diamond Beauty. Diamond Beauty comes from Optical Illusions . Optical Illusions are very important For Brilliancy , Brilliancy is USP of diamonds.
most diamond sales persons can not say to consumer "we sell you a diamond that creates a Optical Illusion " .
it is a nightmare for diamond sales persons.
In same time if you say "a painting create Illusion of sunny day ", it increases a cost of the painting .

so fun is absent also. it is very difficult now for me to enjoy by PS "technical" discussions

4) PS is minor player in diamond word.

anything else?

I'll bite.

Your choice of the term "optical illusion" is interesting.

(A) Newtonian physics easily describes how diamond material properties affect light transmission.
(B) Biology - less easily, less definitively, but still largely sufficiently - explains visual perception.
(C) Study of the psychology of attraction and pleasure is in its infancy.

The function describing the effects of (A) and (B) on (C) is complex, poorly-understood, and impossible to definitively solve; I believe it will always be impossible to definitively solve.

I don't disagree that attempts such as ASET, IS, H&A images, etc. to deconvolve it are oversimplifications, and I don't disagree that it's too easy to misuse them and equate lack of perspective with lack of nuance. A naive association of quality of perception with quantity of transmission just begs for this sort of trivial example - which we've all seen half a dozen times and which I still find interesting, repetition after repetition:
1. If I was going to make you a quilt and you could choose one of these patterns, which would you pick?
2. If I was going to cut you a diamond and you could choose one of these face-up patterns, which would you pick?
3. How many of you picked different patterns? Could you explain why?




But... time for a reality check. @Serg, you're part of an industry wherein the most highly-respected authorities still grade colour by human eye. Stepping back from questions about "the appeal to me of my visual perception of this type of light transmission" - y'all can't even agree on automating body colour evaluation. Ray tracing is a solved problem, surface scanning is a solved problem, behavioural analyses are commonplace, deterministic modelling and stochastic methodologies are well-understood... the chasm between the sort of exploration that you're talking about and this industry's idea of de rigueur is honestly unfathomable to me.

I don't believe that anyone who devotes his life to diamonds is first a mathematician or a scientist... the reality is that there are more reward paths for those looking to bring academic ideology to fruition. This industry is for artists and dreamers. So let me ask you, because I greatly respect you - and all the other professionals who've contributed in this thread and in other threads, but your post was the one that inspired me to take a longer-than-usual lunch today to comment - what do you want? What motivates you? What could interest you enough to share your discoveries with those who would read your publications, including people here on PS?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

For the benefit of this evolving discussion, this is a very long article that incoporates much of what Serg is referring to:
http://www.gem.org.au/ckfinder/userfiles/files/GAA_Journal_V25_No3_web2(1).pdf
It is likely the article will not be understood by any of many in the diamond trade for a decade or more.
I don't understand much of it!

 

[Serg]

Hi Yssie,

I'll bite.

A naive association of quality of perception with quantity of transmission just begs for this sort of trivial example - which we've all seen half a dozen times and which I still find interesting, repetition after repetition:
1. If I was going to make you a quilt and you could choose one of these patterns, which would you pick?
2. If I was going to cut you a diamond and you could choose one of these face-up patterns, which would you pick?
3. How many of you picked different patterns? Could you explain why?

I reject both of them for my a diamond.
Both these patterns have too limited potential to create Brilliancy and Scintillation phenomenas both in mono and in stereoscopic visions.
Compare for example with Scintillation grid illusion

 

[Serg]

- what do you want? What motivates you? What could interest you enough to share your discoveries with those who would read your publications, including people here on PS?

I would like find either smart opponents and strong allies .
Both of them are very important to develop theory , technology and business.

 

[KirstLWA]

I would like to know who 'owns' Pricescope? Just out of curiosity!

Garry H previously mentioned that he was a Director but who else actually has ownership/directorship and runs this forum? Is it other trades people who participate from some of the preferred vendors on here?

I can't find any information or About Us sort of info that explains it.

Can anyone let me know?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I am the only trade person. Andrey is an engineer CEO and majority owner.

 

[yssie]

@Garry H (Cut Nut) thanks for the link! I’ll be very interested to see more background to your response here @Serg. I have a long flight later today, perfect opportunity to do some reading

 

[diagem]

Hi Jimmianne, thank you for your consent, I will answer and post the Aset images on your old thread https://www.pricescope.com/communit...-code-name-mildred.236249/page-6#post-4327545 to avoid a threadjack of this subject.

 

[Catmom]

I love when trade members participate and would personally like to see more of that. It's how I've learned over the years. I do understand the "time = money" concept but it makes me sad that some trade members feel that there is nothing in it for them.