To I1 or not to I1?

[beowulf33]

(cross-posted from DiamondTalk)

Hi all! I have been lurking around for a month or two now, absorbing your collective wisdom and learning how to buy a good diamond. I''m in the process of getting an engagement ring. I have narrowed it down to two stones that present an interesting contrast in features and price:

Stone 1:
1.52ct G/VS1 round
7.44-7.47mm
AGS Ideal, H&A
Ex/Ex
61% depth
55% table
34.2 crown angle
40.8 pavilion angle
faint fluor.
med-slightly thick, faceted girdle
brilliancescope H/VH, VH, VH
perfect H&A pattern
lightscope shows minimal leakage

Stone 2:
1.74ct F/I1 round
7.78-7.81mm
AGS Ideal, H&A
Ex/Ex
61.2% depth
55% table
34.1 crown angle
41.0 pavilion angle
thin-medium, faceted girdle
no fluor.
brilliancescope VH, VH, VH
perfect H&A pattern
lightscope shows minimal leakage

Here''s my thinking about the "five C''s", in their order of their philosophical importance to me:

1. Cut -- both of these are as close to perfectly cut stones as I have seen, and I have done a lot of looking around. Both have great "stats" and both max out the brilliancescope. I have both stones right now (both companies have solid return policies) and so far, they both look equally fantastic in a variety of light conditions.

2. Carat -- the 1.74 stone definitely looks bigger than the 1.52. It isn''t a huge difference, but the 1.74 is more likely to elicit a "that''s a big rock" response than the 1.52. (See the survey posted earlier in the week!) All else being equal, bigger is better (to me at least).

3. Color -- Comparing the stones face-down against a white background, the F is icier. But face-up, I can''t tell the difference, so the color difference is not a big deal.

4. Clarity -- this is the big issue -- I1 vs. VS1. I never thought I would consider an I1 stone when I started this process, but this one is hard to ignore. It is eye-clean in face-up position -- I couldn''t tell the difference between the I1 and similar VVS and VS stones I looked at. Looking at the two stones side by side, I still can''t see the inclusions from the top, knowing exactly where they are. From the bottom and side, of course, I can see the inclusions with my eyes (they''re dark), and under a loupe they are readily visible at any angle.

5. Cost -- Both stones fit within my budget, so cost is not determinative. But the I1 costs $6,000 LESS than the VS1. That''s hard to ignore. Assuming she says yes, it''s going to be her money that is saved, and that''s furniture, house down payment money, etc. that we otherwise wouldn''t have.

Overall -- it seems to come down to one and only one consideration: is the psychological comfort of knowing you have a clean stone worth $6,000 AND sacrificing size and a color grade? Will I look at the ring and only think of the tiny dark inclusions? My girlfriend would probably approve of the I1, but should I care that she can''t or won''t tell her friends what the stone''s clarity is for fear that they will think (irrationally) it''s a stinker? Given the stone''s beauty, it''s not really a rational distinction, but diamonds are in many ways a more emotional than rational product.

Anyways, this has turned out to be more of a diary entry than I had intended, but I welcome your thoughts on this choice. I believe both of the sellers of these stones (both of whom are wonderful) are participants on this board, so I am sure they will be interested in your thoughts as well.

 

[hoorray]

I'm not an expert on inclusions, but I would go for the I1 assuming an independant appraiser tells you that the inclusions don't create any integrity risk to the stone (ie features reaching the surface, etc.) or reduce it's "sparkle".

It sounds as if you've thought through how your intended would feel. There are lots of ways to answer the clarity question. Most people who ask it don't know anything about diamonds -- clarity is all they have heard of. She can always just say something like, yes -- it's a top of the line diamond, which it will be with all that sparkle, and in reality, most people will focus on the size.

 

[roshita]

Both of these diamonds seem to be beatifully cut and will look gorgeous! The first thing that most people will notice, once they were captured by its brilliance is its size. The most they may ask you about your diamond is how big is it? You seem to ba a practical person and it sounds like so is she. Make the choice that would make both of you comfortable and happy for the long term.

 

[Patty]

beowulf, I understand your dilema. I just bought an I1 stone and got my ring a week ago. I've seen (online) at the I1 you are considering. It's an amazing price for a beautiful diamond. Only you know if you can live with the inclusions or if they will bother you. The one you are considering has more inclusions than the I1 that I bought. I like knowing that mine has just the one main inclusion, even though it is right under the table.

How educated is your girlfriend about diamonds? Has she expressed much interest in the quality of her stone? Will her friends quiz her about the clarity? Most women just see the size and color and sparkliness of a diamond. How important is it to your girlfriend to have "good quality" things? Will she be interested in the "specs" of the diamond or will she just be thrilled with the size and sparkle of it?

I know that I enjoy getting a good deal and I'm very practical. I'd rather have the extra money for a house or the honeymoon. I can see the inclusion in my diamond with my naked eye if I look just the right way. This does NOT bother me...I find it kind of cool.

One suggestion...If you go with the I1 stone, you may want to consider a "basket" type setting. That setting shows off the top of the stone but you can't see into the side of the stone very well. I have another I1 diamond and it bothers me that I can look into the side of the diamond and see inclusions.

 

[mike04456]

Attractive I1's exist. I have seen my share. If you've examined this one closely and like it, I see no reason not to go with it.

 

[Robyn12]

I would go for stone 1, hands down. I think it's a better combination of color and clarity. Since both stones are big -- I would go with the slightly smaller, cleaner one. An I1 would really bother me over time...

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[Giangi]

That I 1 looks interesting and is very well priced... But keep in mind that she'll stare at the ring forever... Do you think it'll be a problem for her to see the inclusions (eventually)? If the answer is no, go for it. It looks beautiful. Otherwise consider a similarly sized HI/SI stone. It will face up white & clean to the naked eye.

 

[valeria101]

Whether to I1 or not, is one of those dilemmas for the fables "eye of the beholder" to judge... Nothing I could add to the previous posts.

However, there is something puzzling about these choices: an G-VS versus F-I1 ? The choice is quite an easy one: there will barely be any difference in color between the two and surely some in clarity. So, with color grades just about the same and clarity grades all over the field... the choice is a very straightforward G-VS, and no dilemma rests anywhere near.

If the issue rests with those "colorless" and "near colorless" monikers... well, than it is really up to you to decide whether an invisible label is worth staring at all those inclusions all day.

And then there is the size issue... the F-I1 is bigger. Oh well, there must be a G-VS/SI1 of similar heft and better water somewhere... around here

 

[Rand_alThor]

My 2 cents. Get the I1 now and if she feels like she wants an upgrade in the future then go for it. Take the 6K and invest it somewhere under her name only. Let it grow and give her the option to break that investment at anytime and use those funds to upgrade the diamond. The benefit of this idea is that when you propose to her you are giving her 2 gifts, the diamond and the option to upgrade whenever she wants.




Imagine giving a a girl a pair of Manolo's and some money to upgrade the Manolos at a later date.

 

[gmpi]

You are right about how people consider size over quality but just the fact that you posted the question means you have reservations about the I1. It could drive you crazy when you look at the stone and see the inclusions. It sounds like money is not a real issue for you and you should keep looking for a stone that is somwhere in the middle. there are many stones in the sea.

 

[longtimelurker]

Well, I am conflicted since I know where that stone is, and I was trying to talk my brother into it for his girlfriend...but it's out of the price range he wants to stay in. (I wish he would reach for it, which means I must be in the catagory of bigger is better, assuming the cut/color/clarity is still in the acceptable range for that particular individual).

That vendor allows you a lifetime upgrade. You could go for the I1 now, and if it really, really bugs her over time (and only you/she can answer that), you could always upgrade at a later time to a better clarity--10 years? 20? or never depending on BOTH of your thoughts.

And who really stands around looking at the side of their stone?

 

[Rand_alThor]

Just be careful you guys dont get into situation where both people indicate an interest in the stone, this may drive up the price and in that scenario both guys lose!!!

 

[Daniela]

To the question, "Who stands around looking at the side of their stone," I emphatically reply, "I do."

Just wanted to point out that there are girls out there who care about clarity. The decision you have to make is whether or not your girl is one of them. If you think she might be, then it's a no-brainer: get the VS.

For what it's worth, that's the stone that I would want, given the choice. But that's just me.

And by the way, a carat and a half is a large stone.

Daniela

 

[longtimelurker]

Just to clarify, I/my brother am NOT going to get the I1. It's outside of the budget he wants to stay in. But if I could buy it I'd want it, assuming it looked good in person. I love a good deal, and to me, that would LOOK like a $20k+ stone (ie appearance of an eye-clean 2 ct rock!!!)

 

[Jennifer5973]

I agree with Patty... The I1 seems like a great stone and the savings are huge...If you can plot the inclusions and find a setting that minimizes/hides them, 99.999% of the people will never know. I'd avoid a high setting with 4 prongs that showcases the side of the stone.

A friend of mine has a stone with a big black spot on the side but had her jeweler turn the stone so now the prong totally hides it...And the only reason i know is b/c she pointed it out to me.

The size and icy white of the I1, F, 1.74 seem really appealing.

 

[phoenixgirl]

----------------
is the psychological comfort of knowing you have a clean stone worth $6,000 AND sacrificing size and a color grade?----------------

To me, no. $6000 more is almost twice as much. I find the idea ridiculous . . . to pay almost twice as much to have a smaller stone with a lower color grade, just so that I can't see tiny dark specks when I stare at my ring at a certain angle. Even if I had money galor, I would not spend extra $ on VS1 clarity.

Maybe you want to do a little more shopping and find something in the SI range that is eye-clean instead and not so much more than the I1. But out of the current choices, I would go with the I1.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 2/6/2004 3:48:24 PM Rand_alThor wrote:


My 2 cents. Get the I1 now and if she feels like she wants an upgrade in the future then go for it. Take the 6K and invest it somewhere under her name only. Let it grow and give her the option to break that investment at anytime and use those funds to upgrade the diamond. The benefit of this idea is that when you propose to her you are giving her 2 gifts, the diamond and the option to upgrade whenever she wants.


Imagine giving a a girl a pair of Manolo's and some money to upgrade the Manolos at a later date.


----------------

I like you way of thinking. Heck, she may not ever want to upgrade - but oh what she could do with the 6k+investing mad money.

 

[Rand_alThor]

Thanks F&I;

I'm work in the i-banking industry; Trust me, I can always find ways of gravitating any conversation towards investing....

 

[diamondlil]

----------------
On 2/6/2004 3:48:24 PM Rand_alThor wrote:







My 2 cents. Get the I1 now and if she feels like she wants an upgrade in the future then go for it. Take the 6K and invest it somewhere under her name only. Let it grow and give her the option to break that investment at anytime and use those funds to upgrade the diamond. The benefit of this idea is that when you propose to her you are giving her 2 gifts, the diamond and the option to upgrade whenever she wants.




Imagine giving a a girl a pair of Manolo's and some money to upgrade the Manolos at a later date.





----------------

Rand, this is brilliant!!

A guy would win BIG brownie points on this one for me. If you are purchasing with a vendor with a good trade-up policy, I would rather have the $$ now to use toward wedding expenses or house downpayment and upgrade my diamond in a few years.

Given the 2 choices and asumming Beowulf has seen the I1 in person and is happy with it, I would choose the larger, whiter, I1. My philosophy has always been, "why pay for what you cannot see." I would choose a setting that compliments the face-up position best. I love the look of icy, D-E-F stones, and I would definitely not spend $6,000 more to get a VS1 clarity.

If the I1 is psychologically a real problem, then spend a little more time searching and find an SI in the F or G color to keep the cost closer to the I1. But for me, the CUT is going to give this stone some serious *bling.* If anyone were to ask details about it, I would point out it is an ideal cut, perfect H&A stone. Trust me, they'll all be drooling!!!!!

Diamondlil

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 2/6/2004 4:19:40 PM longtimelurker wrote:

And who really stands around looking at the side of their stone?

----------------

His fiance will......I GUARANTEE it.

I've been known to say "who cares what it looks like from the side" if the discussion is about what OTHERS will reasonably be expected to see.....because the casual viewer will look at a diamond face-up and at a distance of 12-18".

The wearer of the ring, however, will put it as close to her eyeball as she can without poking herself in the eye and stare at it from every angle possible, even if it requires contortionist capabilities to do so.

She will clean the daylights out of the ring, and it will get much closer scrutiny from her than from anyone else. So the real question is, will it bother HER to see the inclusion from the side? If not, then go for it. NO ONE else will get close enough to see it from the side.

I do still agree, though, that I'd prefer to find a stone that splits the difference in clarity - shoot for a VS2, SI1, or even eyeclean SI2....and just the color accordingly.

 

[Jennifer5973]

You definitely don't want something that shows a big black mark from the side....it's tricky but that's the beauty of I1's....if you hit the right one, you've got yourself a great stone and saved a ton of money.

A wise person once told me "don't pay for what the eye can't see" This is the key--if the inclusions are such that the right setting, one which his fiance will like, will completely mask the inclusion, then it's worth it.

If the spots are very visible in the setting from the profile, it's true that with a stone as large as 1.7 cts, you run the risk, albeit small since most pple don't know squat about diamonds except to think about how "big" it is, of being able to see it.

It all depends on that I1 stone.

 

[Griffin]

For the equivalent expenditure, it's a case of one stone that looks nice mounted in a ring sitting in a ring box, and one stone that looks equally nice mounted in a ring sitting in, say, an immaculately restored '65 Mustang in her favorite color.

Which one would she really prefer? I know my fiance would kick my *** if I chose the VS...

Go for the I1. No one can or will ever notice the difference mounted and on her hand. Besides, they'll be too busy checking out the Mustang.

 

[beowulf33]

Thanks for all the helpful responses! I really appreciate the thought so many of you put into this question. I think there are good reasons supporting either approach. I have been struggling with this for the last couple of days, but I think I have made up my mind. I'm going to have the stones appraised today and then finish up this piece of the process. (Then comes the struggle to find the perfect setting!) I'll keep you all posted. Thanks again!

 

[longtimelurker]

I'm having a mommy-memory moment...I think there was someone who posted a while back about being able to see the inclusions from the side of the stone in a VS2 or better clarity. This person was surprised. I think it was a larger stone, maybe 3 cts? Does anyone know the thread I'm talking about?

 

[hoorray]

Are you thinking of this one? (It is an SI1.)

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/its-not-the-whole-ring-but-what-do-you-think-of-this-to-start.10983/

 

[beowulf33]

Sorry for the delay in posting the epilogue to this story (at least to this part of the story)! Here's what I did:

- I didn't get the I1. Although it was a beautiful stone at a fantastic price, I finally spotted the primary inclusion with my eye and couldn't get past that. Once I spotted it the first time, I saw it a lot, although it was very small and did not detract from the overall beauty of the stone (and no one would ever see it from a foot away or more). Also, I showed the stones to several people at the office, and a couple spotted the inclusion fairly quickly (one didn't even know there was supposed to be one!). If I were on a smaller budget, I would have gotten the I1 in a heartbeat, but since I could afford more, I figured I would move on to a stone that wouldn't make me nervous down the road about what would orwouldn't be seen and by whom.

- But I didn't get the G/VS1 either. Although it was also a stunning stone, I was unsatisfied spending the extra money for a VS1 (versus a VS2 or SI1) and I felt that the high clarity grade was maybe too far in the other direction from the I1. Also, the stone was from a retailer with a local presence, so I had to pay sales tax, and I had always hoped to avoid that. But I still loved the stone, so I was happy to stick with it. My appraiser thought it was a wonderful, solid choice. Yet I decided to make one last push to see if there was anything else out there. . .

- And then I found a stone that was the 'real deal' for me:

1.69ct E/VS2
AGS Ideal, H&A
7.69-7.71mm
Ex/Ex
61.3% depth
56% table
34.8 crown angle
40.7 pavilion angle
no fluor.
med-faceted girdle

It's even more beautiful than the G/VS1, by my own eyes and by the unanimous verdict of my 'judges' at the office. It's also bigger and whiter. And since I got it from an out of state retailer, the net cost was exactly the same as the G/VS1. My appraiser agreed that it was a no-brainer.

So that's what I got and the search is over. The search for the stone, that is -- now comes the fun of finding the perfect setting! It was a lot of work, but I'm thrilled with the stone, and more importantly I think my girlfriend will be too. I should note that all three retailers I worked with were absolutely first rate -- I feel bad that two of them didn't ultimately get my business, but I would recommend them to others without hesitation.

Thanks again to everyone for your helpful thoughts.

 

[phoenixgirl]

Yes, I agree that it was a "no brainer"! Congratulations!

 

[Nicrez]

I have been following this post with curiosity, because I wonder what some people's tolerances are on inclusions. I am not all the picky with them, but I have never seen an I1, and sadly, I would have gone for size and color....I am so glad you found the perfect compromise! YAY for you!!!! Congrats and may she wear it well!!!!

 

[hoorray]

----------------
On 2/17/2004 4:54:30 PM beowulf33 wrote:


- And then I found a stone that was the 'real deal' for me:

1.69ct E/VS2
AGS Ideal, H&A
7.69-7.71mm
Ex/Ex
61.3% depth
56% table
34.8 crown angle
40.7 pavilion angle
no fluor.
med-faceted girdle

----------------

Great choice! (I'm biased because I have an E/VS2 with very similar angles, and I LOVE it.) I know other colors face up white, but I love having the E color, and I'm sure your girlfriend will also. Soooo....now comes the setting and then the proposal story! Congrats!

 

[Patty]

It sounds like you found a beautiful diamond.

Congrats!