To all the dealers trashing Lab Diamonds

[nala]

@denverappraiser, when you mention that diamonds are not a financial instrument, I wonder if you are familiar with the abundance of Instagram jewelry resellers. Lots of these resellers specialize in selling diamond rings that they find for cheap in the wild, AKA, pawn shops. Trust me when I tell you, some of them make a living off doing only that. Social Media has eliminated the middleman—no consignment or platform fees. I have been pawn shopping for years now, and most of my collection was funded from reselling the pieces that I tire of. I can say that I break even, profit and have never taken a significant loss! The bonus is that I get to enjoy these pretties and still get my money out of them! Very few purchases can boast that claim.

 

[autumngems]

I'm with you on the overblue VSBF, @lovedogs! My three-stone ring is E/D/E, each with SBF, and those gems are so much fun in the sun. They're fun in the dark, too, with the right lighting.

Same here

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

@denverappraiser, when you mention that diamonds are not a financial instrument, I wonder if you are familiar with the abundance of Instagram jewelry resellers. Lots of these resellers specialize in selling diamond rings that they find for cheap in the wild, AKA, pawn shops. Trust me when I tell you, some of them make a living off doing only that. Social Media has eliminated the middleman—no consignment or platform fees. I have been pawn shopping for years now, and most of my collection was funded from reselling the pieces that I tire of. I can say that I break even, profit and have never taken a significant loss! The bonus is that I get to enjoy these pretties and still get my money out of them! Very few purchases can boast that claim.

And that has been anecdotally true, for you.
How many more millions of people sell at cost, or less? Your experience is not the reality for the vast majority of consumers and the resellers are just that, sellers. They buy in relative 'bulk' and make profit from having relationships with other
professionals. Not something consumers can avail themselves of as a rule.
You have the benefit of much knowledge, great taste and eye- you know what you're looking at in a way most don't.
Most people lose money on their jewelry unless they make it a hobby to educate themselves how to best avoid that- and even then, it's a gamble.

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

It'sMainelyYou, I agree with this. nala is an extremely talented and shrewd exception, for most of us the only way to make money with jewelry is to inherit it and sell for 1/4 the appraised value. Have a look at the sad engagement ring ads on facebook.

 

[nala]

And that has been anecdotally true, for you.
How many more millions of people sell at cost, or less? Your experience is not the reality for the vast majority of consumers and the resellers are just that, sellers. They buy in relative 'bulk' and make profit from having relationships with other
professionals. Not something consumers can avail themselves of as a rule.
You have the benefit of much knowledge, great taste and eye- you know what you're looking at in a way most don't.
Most people lose money on their jewelry unless they make it a hobby to educate themselves how to best avoid that- and even then, it's a gamble.

Agree. But also, do not discount the many who suddenly find themselves heirs to grandma’s pieces and have the prudence to get appraisals. What other item worn over a lifetime still has any monetary value?

 

[denverappraiser]

@denverappraiser, when you mention that diamonds are not a financial instrument, I wonder if you are familiar with the abundance of Instagram jewelry resellers. Lots of these resellers specialize in selling diamond rings that they find for cheap in the wild, AKA, pawn shops. Trust me when I tell you, some of them make a living off doing only that. Social Media has eliminated the middleman—no consignment or platform fees. I have been pawn shopping for years now, and most of my collection was funded from reselling the pieces that I tire of. I can say that I break even, profit and have never taken a significant loss! The bonus is that I get to enjoy these pretties and still get my money out of them! Very few purchases can boast that claim.

Hi Nala. Yes, I'm familiar with Instagram.

I know hundreds of people who make a living buying and selling diamonds. That doesn't make diamonds a financial instrument, it makes them jewelers. It's a skill. Some people are pretty good at it. A lot more are not. It sounds like you are the former. Most find it's helpful to pay for things like platform fees and advertising but everyone does it a little differently. YMMV. Nearly everyone believes they got a 'deal' on their diamonds, and they believe this all the way up to the point that they try to sell them. That's how those pawn shops get all of those stones you're talking about buying and selling.

 

[Wink]

Ugliness isn't good no matter where it crops up.

I'm someone who prefers natural, earth-made diamonds. And as such, I've received tons and tons of abuse from people who are invested in lab diamonds. Been called terrible names, etc, for my own feelings that I view lab diamonds as costume jewelry. These are my own personal feelings, not directed at anyone else, and most of the time kept to myself unless specifically asked. If you love labs, wonderful, buy and wear lab diamonds proudly! I'm happy for you. You do you, I'lll do me. But it doesn't end there. If I don't LOVE someone else's lab diamonds, if I don't think they are equal to mine (which I don't) then I'm labeled a monster. The thought police come after me!!! I am told to "stay silent".

Even though I know that @Rockdiamond dislikes political correctness, or "wokeness", as do I, to me, his initial post reeks of it. So what if some people don't believe lab diamonds are equal to earth-mined? Who cares! Don't be a snowflake. You do you. There's certainly money to be made in lab diamonds, so smile and stick to your convictions and proudly sell your diamonds. You'll be a rich man (or woman for the females in the business).

But don't beat people over the head that they must think like you. And if anyone here truly believes that people with other opinions should stay silent, then perhaps a democracy isn't a good fit for you.

It makes me vey sad and very tired that in America today if someone has a different view, they are denigrated and raked over the coals. People are terrified to speak their minds, say their opinions, and sometimes even merely exist if they are different than what is in vogue at the moment.

I have not been around much for the last couple of months. I am so glad I came upon this strong breath of fresh air.

I am reminded of another age, when a much younger Wink sold a line of very well cut CZ's. This was before I met the team cutting the magnificent CBI diamonds.

One day I responded to a question on a dealer board asking who was planning to sell synthetic diamonds. (This was before the Lab Grown title was bestowed upon them.) I responded that I had no intention of selling them for at least several years. One of the dealers made a comment about not expecting me to have any qualms about selling the lab grown diamonds.

He did not ask, so I did not say why, but I think it is worth sharing at this time.

Lab grown diamonds are indeed diamonds, and just like Earth Grown Diamonds, are incredibly beautiful when properly cut. Why then did I not intend to sell them at that time?

Easy answer for me.

At that time, they were too expensive. At the time they were selling for between sixty to eighty percent of the price of a natural diamond. My thinking was the final price of the lab grown diamonds had to be down to at least twenty percent of the price of a natural diamond before I would feel right about selling one.

I told more than one potential client I would not sell them a product for today's price when by the time they received it, it would already be worth less than they paid for it. It turns out I was correct. Prices came down rapidly over the next few years and today they are selling for much less than twenty percent of the cost of a natural diamond.

For the last year It has become difficult to keep up with the free falling prices. If I got in a parcel of lab grown diamonds and entered them into a data base, they were worth less at retail after a few days than I had priced them and within a very short time, worth less than I had paid for them.

Where will it stop?

I do not know.

I do know the margins on lab grown diamonds are large compared to the margins on natural diamonds. I do know the price of lab grown diamonds created a huge crisis for the natural cut vendors, and dragged the prices down dramatically for the natural diamonds.

I also think I know, at some point the bottom will have been reached and the prices will not be able to go lower. I also know the production of natural diamonds is rapidly reducing as the current mines dry up and there are not many, if any, new mines to be found. Thus, I think, at some point the price of natural diamonds will also have reached bottom and it will still be much higher than the price of lab grown diamonds.

Thank you @RunningwithScissors for reminding me of what I thought some years ago, It was a pleasure to read your comments.

 

[Wink]

It's an interesting question. The early synthetic corundum was pretty easy to identify as they grew in a circular pattern around a spinning line forming a cylindrical boule. You could see the telltale curved striae in a faceted stone with a loupe. We know what happened to that market in the long run. Then came synthetics with more "natural" growth methods which were harder to identify such as the Chatham and Kashan brands which sold for considerably more, at least for a while. I'm not sure of market prices these days, or whether they are still being actively marketed.
Maybe someone who frequents the colored stone forums can shed light.

I cannot answer for the current situation, but historically, every time a good synthetic was produced, it lead to fear, then to acceptance and then, generally to an increased demand for the natural.

For example, when the Linde star sapphires were introduced, there were those who thought the market for the natural star sapphires and rubies would be damaged. In reality, the natural market for stars went up due to the increased awareness of the product.

This does not seem to be happening with diamonds, as the price variance is so astronomical. Diamonds have become the King of the market and the prices of naturals has been pushed so high in the last fifty years that the average engagement ring seeker simply cannot get what he or she wants in a natural without going into debt.

When I graduated from the GIA in 1975, I was told the price of a 1 carat D-IF in 1970 was only a couple of grand. It was about $4,000 at the time I graduated, if my memory is not too foggy. During the investment insanity of late 1979, it shot up to more than $65,000 between two dealers in New York, just before it came crashing down to less than $20,000 six months later.

In 1974, I remember selling my dad a great 1.5 carat diamond for my mom for less than $2,000. Granted, at the time I only made about $650 per month, but I could have gotten one for my wife if I she had wanted one. I had a nice engagement ring custom made for her in 1972 in Rio de Janeiro for $325. of course, gold was still selling for $35 per ounce back then, and labor was much less than it is today...

 

[seaurchin]

I think things tend to get ugly whenever there's a major upset in any status quo. But things keep changing anyway and will settle wherever they settle.

This affects so many people, to varying degrees. Even here from the sidelines, for years I had saved what I thought was a really nice mined diamond. I wanted to offer it to a close relative for an e-ring. When the time came, I was so pleased when it was not only wanted but seemed adored.

Then, here come all the other young women with real honkers of lab diamonds on their fingers. Now I think my big gift doesn't seem so big.

So anyway, I can imagine how it is for people who are affected by the popularity of lab diamonds in a big way, maybe even with their livelihood on the line.

But it would not occur to me to hiss and spit at anyone who sells or buys lab diamonds.

In fact, after getting used to the idea, I think I will get one myself.

 

[mrs-b]

Bit of a sideways suggestion here...

Something that I think might help some earth mined diamond retailers is to look to their purchasing options. If you're selling a product that has an almost identical competitor that retails at 10% of the price (or less), you want to make your product as easy to acquire as possible.

To that end, I would suggest offering a layaway program to customers. I've wanted to have that option for years. There's an item on a certain well-loved site I would put down a 20% deposit on immediately, if I could get a layaway option. But once I pass, say, $10k, you're talking about an amount I don't normally have just lying around to spend on an item for which I have no pressing need. I'll think about it, think about it, decide I have a dozen things more worthy of the amount, and almost always move on. Which is exactly what's happened. If, on the other hand, I had, say, 6 months to pay this item off - or even 4 months, on a non-refundable deposit basis, I'd plonk down the $2.5k deposit this afternoon.

Earth mined diamond companies might be selling luxury items, but very few people have luxury-level incomes. Options are good - both in the products available, but also in the purchasing process.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Status update: we’re still living in a world where these irresponsible claims are being made on behalf of LGDs

Lab-Grown Diamonds Go Green, WSJ article

Today’s WSJ article with title above is an interesting read. Looks like another impetus to buy a LGD is concern for climate change. Read the article. https://www.wsj.com/articles/diamonds-made-with-solar-power-are-offering-fiancees-ethical-fashion-475d1c7b?page=1 I hope it can be read without...

www.pricescope.com

No mention of the power used to grow crystals in the volume necessary to feed this market. Sure, solar and wind are awesome but they ain’t powering the vast majority of factories growing lab diamonds.
The market is definitely shifting though. I think lab prices are very close to the bottom of we’re talking about quality, curated stones.

. If you're selling a product that has an almost identical competitor that retails at 10% of the price (or less), you want to make your product as easy to acquire as possible.

I think this a great point!!
For sure, the changes in the market will spur sellers to adjust in ways they might not have considered just a year ago. It never hurts to ask!

I may have mentioned this before but the changes at the wholesale level are kinda …. Sad?
A lot of the …. Honor of the biz is gone. This started before lab diamonds. But it’s gotten much worse.
Also associated with all the changes is the lack of opportunity to make a career in diamonds.
When I started getting a job in the diamond industry meant you had a chance to be very successful. At the least, you’d have a good paying job with a pension.
Nowadays the reality is the owners of these large companies have no need to high paid workers. They hire people who don’t even think about advancing.

Sad.

 

[MagpieMama]

Is it possible that long term all diamonds could end up far less valuable, kind of like what happened to pearls?

I think this cautionary tale of dropping value is descriptive:


The Cartier flagship in NY was once a residence built by Morton F. Plant and traded to Cartier for a natural south sea pearl necklace they Plant’s wife, Maisie, wanted (he was kind of over the increasingly commercial location anyway and had built a bigger mansion in the east 80’s)


The necklace and the mansion were each worth around $1 million in 1916 - when the necklace was auctioned in 1957 it went for $181,000.


Just so we can compare apples to apples let’s adjust both prices for inflation:

In 1916 $1 million
was nearly $29 million in 2023 $


In 1957 $181,000
was around $2 million in 2023 $


So that “priceless” south sea pearl necklace lost around 93% of its value in 40 years, despite pearls being very in style in the 1950’s and this particular necklace having an interesting provenance


But why? What about value, rarity, etc?


I think the answer may be that timing is everything.


The first commercial crops of cultured akoya pearls were produced in 1916, and it took another 10-15 years to make the same technology work with south sea pearls… when cultured pearls took over the prices of natural and cultured pearls plummeted. Not that pearls aren’t still beautiful, in demand, luxury, and not necessarily “cheap” (depending on variety and quality) but the prices just never went back, and cultured pearls became the default.

Maybe the take away is that diamonds (of all varieties) are like most luxury goods - so buy what you enjoy, buy what you can afford, and don’t be tricked into thinking any of this stuff is a good store of value - oh, and invest in real estate

 

[dvj]

Is it possible that long term all diamonds could end up far less valuable, kind of like what happened to pearls?

I think this cautionary tale of dropping value is descriptive:


The Cartier flagship in NY was once a residence built by Morton F. Plant and traded to Cartier for a natural south sea
pearl necklace they Plant’s wife, Maisie, wanted (he was kind of over the increasingly commercial location anyway and had built a bigger mansion in the east 80’s)


The necklace and the mansion were each worth around $1 million in 1916 - when the necklace was auctioned in 1957 it went for $181,000.


Just so we can compare apples to apples let’s adjust both prices for inflation:

In 1916 $1 million
was nearly $29 million in 2023 $


In 1957 $181,000
was around $2 million in 2023 $


So that “priceless” south sea pearl necklace lost around 93% of its value in 40 years, despite pearls being very in style in the 1950’s and this particular necklace having an interesting provenance


But why? What about value, rarity, etc?


I think the answer may be that timing is everything.


The first commercial crops of cultured akoya pearls were produced in 1916, and it took another 10-15 years to make the same technology work with south sea pearls… when cultured pearls took over the prices of natural and cultured pearls plummeted. Not that pearls aren’t still beautiful, in demand, luxury, and not necessarily “cheap” (depending on variety and quality) but the prices just never went back, and cultured pearls became the default.

Maybe the take away is that diamonds (of all varieties) are like most luxury goods - so buy what you enjoy, buy what you can afford, and don’t be tricked into thinking any of this stuff is a good store of value - oh, and invest in real estate

I had never heard this story before. Thank you for sharing, and wow.

 

[oncrutchesrightnow]

Then, here come all the other young women with real honkers of lab diamonds on their fingers. Now I think my big gift doesn't seem so big.

As someone who has inherited mainly costume jewelry with very few pieces of fine jewelry (and modest ones at that), please know that your loved one will treasure the stone that came from you.

In fact, after getting used to the idea, I think I will get one myself.

Yay!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Is it possible that long term all diamonds could end up far less valuable, kind of like what happened to pearls?

I think this cautionary tale of dropping value is descriptive:


The Cartier flagship in NY was once a residence built by Morton F. Plant and traded to Cartier for a natural south sea pearl necklace they Plant’s wife, Maisie, wanted (he was kind of over the increasingly commercial location anyway and had built a bigger mansion in the east 80’s)


The necklace and the mansion were each worth around $1 million in 1916 - when the necklace was auctioned in 1957 it went for $181,000.


Just so we can compare apples to apples let’s adjust both prices for inflation:

In 1916 $1 million
was nearly $29 million in 2023 $


In 1957 $181,000
was around $2 million in 2023 $


So that “priceless” south sea pearl necklace lost around 93% of its value in 40 years, despite pearls being very in style in the 1950’s and this particular necklace having an interesting provenance


But why? What about value, rarity, etc?


I think the answer may be that timing is everything.


The first commercial crops of cultured akoya pearls were produced in 1916, and it took another 10-15 years to make the same technology work with south sea pearls… when cultured pearls took over the prices of natural and cultured pearls plummeted. Not that pearls aren’t still beautiful, in demand, luxury, and not necessarily “cheap” (depending on variety and quality) but the prices just never went back, and cultured pearls became the default.

Maybe the take away is that diamonds (of all varieties) are like most luxury goods - so buy what you enjoy, buy what you can afford, and don’t be tricked into thinking any of this stuff is a good store of value - oh, and invest in real estate

The difference in the case of the pearl industry is that natural pearls were TOO rare for anything even approaching a mass market. Natural diamonds, while rare, are plentiful enough (just expensive to bring to market) to serve a wide market. As such, companies dealing in the product can spend on promoting them, thereby maintaining a healthy market long term.

It is ironic that a gem can be too rare for its own good. Someone once told me that the only thing rarer than a large gem Alexandrite is a customer for a large gem Alexandrite

Better analogues for what we are likely to see in the natural diamond market are the examples of synthetic colored gemstones such as ruby and sapphire. Because nice naturals are available, there is still a robust global market for them.

 

[0515vision]

It is ironic that a gem can be too rare for its own good. Someone once told me that the only thing rarer than a large gem Alexandrite is a customer for a large gem Alexandrite

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Status update: we’re still living in a world where these irresponsible claims are being made on behalf of LGDs

Lab-Grown Diamonds Go Green, WSJ article

Today’s WSJ article with title above is an interesting read. Looks like another impetus to buy a LGD is concern for climate change. Read the article. https://www.wsj.com/articles/diamonds-made-with-solar-power-are-offering-fiancees-ethical-fashion-475d1c7b?page=1 I hope it can be read without...

www.pricescope.com

No mention of the power used to grow crystals in the volume necessary to feed this market. Sure, solar and wind are awesome but they ain’t powering the vast majority of factories growing lab diamonds.
The market is definitely shifting though. I think lab prices are very close to the bottom of we’re talking about quality, curated stones.


I think this a great point!!
For sure, the changes in the market will spur sellers to adjust in ways they might not have considered just a year ago. It never hurts to ask!

I may have mentioned this before but the changes at the wholesale level are kinda …. Sad?
A lot of the …. Honor of the biz is gone. This started before lab diamonds. But it’s gotten much worse.
Also associated with all the changes is the lack of opportunity to make a career in diamonds.
When I started getting a job in the diamond industry meant you had a chance to be very successful. At the least, you’d have a good paying job with a pension.
Nowadays the reality is the owners of these large companies have no need to high paid workers. They hire people who don’t even think about advancing.

Sad.

unfortunatly that is true across so many sectors these days, its about the lowest common denominator and returns to shareholders

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

In addition to dealers doing this, I suppose we should include Mr Rappaport as well.
He's been on a binge tour criticizing lab diamonds, as a product and as a business.
As he and many others have pointed out, even though a curated Lab Diamond is visually identical to its Natural counterpart, only a real diamond signifies love.
I'm sure we can prove this fact scientifically.
Or maybe in a court of law.
Really?
Or- "Lab Diamonds have no resale value"
An argument easily countered by the actual dollars involved.
A guy bought a 5ct Lab Diamond two years ago for $25k
Today it's $4k
Man did he get ripped off!
First of all- of course, it would have resale value, if it was a quality piece of jewelry.
Secondly, the natural 5ct E/VS1 Emerald Cut diamond was $200k+ for a sharp buyer. That same sharp buyer needing cash? Looking at about $100K+-
Even the guy who spent $25k is lightyears ahead financially.

What this insulting approach fails to realize is that it tarnishes natural diamonds worse than labs.
In reality, it's a fact that a large percentage of the business is now lab diamonds.

How many people buying lab diamonds these days would have bought a natural if there wasn't a lab option?
A lot.
The percentage of that pool opting for lab diamonds is growing exponentially. Much faster than the market itself is expanding.
The inevitable result is a weakening of the natural diamond market.

While he's out there trashing man made diamonds, Mr Rappaport's Rap sheet has stayed consistent in terms of price for months.
I'm using a Rap sheet from September, and it's current.
However, the real price of natural diamonds has weakened during this period.
The discounts off the list have risen because the list is not reflecting reality.

The attacks on lab diamonds bring out the inherent issues with natural diamond grading/prices.
Why should a D/IF cost approximately triple an F/VS2 (eye clean) diamond?

Make no mistake- I love natural diamonds, and what they represent. We have many clients who will accept only natural diamonds. I hope the prices rise because we own a lot of diamonds.
Of course, none of this affects the actual market, and the popularity of lab grown diamonds. I feel that by taking a side- vocally - is counterproductive to the industry. I feel the same about lab sellers trashing natural diamonds.
Let the clients decide for themselves.

Why insult anyone? Let people buy what they want

IS "Earth Mined" a negative term??? ( I know @Garry H (Cut Nut) will read this

Cut to the chase, - I do not believe that calling it an Earth Mined Diamond is in any derogatory.

I am travelling so time poor, no excuse, but fact.
I agree and disagree with David on many levels.
Mostly that manufactured diamonds will bring many more people to love diamonds all around the world. most will never buy a natural diamond.
Some of those new diamond lovers will aspire for as Rap calls it - the real thing.

The positives are for natural diamonds is prices will sky rocket.
Why?
Around half the output of most mines are low grade that no one on this forum would consider buying. They will and should be replaced by better looking man made diamonds. They will be in tennis bracelets etc. Many of you here are enjoying this option.
The effect will be that prospecting funding dries up. Many low grade mines will close. Supply of larger I plus Eye clean diamonds will drop and prices will rise.
Corolla vs German marques. Both go A to B.

Another effect that I am praying for is that natural diamonds will need to be better cut and polished to keep up with the better visual performance on man made diamonds. Man made diamonds will mostly be grown with CVD as making more HPHT presses will be like finding more diamond mines - they just cost too much.
CVD will also drive technologies to grade diamond transparency - my second biggest wish for natural diamond grading (which is the worst multi billion dollar cheating in our industry).

Out of politeness to David I have refrained from using the Gemmological correct terminologies.
Diamonds manufactured in factories are not grown or curated in labs. That is a fiction created for global economic reasons.
Since the first synthetic rubies and sapphires were grown using flame fusion. Ever since the principles have been: Natural (treated or not), synthetic i.e. of the same chemical and crystalline structure, and imitation e.g. synthetic spinel sold as sapphire.
If anyone wants to know why the term Lab Grown has become the norm, contact me privately, I am not hard to find. I do not wish to offend most of the people on this forum.

Finally, in support of Martin Rapaport - the LGD industry is trading off natural diamonds. This is very bad for consumers. Two things at 2 levels.
1. manufacturers are selling larger diamonds at prices per carat that are higher than that of smaller stones.
This is cheating based on the fact that a natural diamond of double the carat weigh cost 4 times more.
16 half carat natural diamonds cost about the same as one 4 carat stone.
16 half carat LGD diamonds cost less than one 4ct stone.
Growing, cutting and grading 16 half carat diamonds costs a lot more than growing cutting and grading one 4ct stone.
That is why manufacturers are cheating. They use the Rapaport natural diamond price list and claim they are giving 99% discounts!

2. Retailers are cheating. They never ever made margins as high as they have on man made diamonds.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Great to hear your viewpoint Garry!
We agree on much.
When it comes to Rap and what he’s doing , we diverge.

2. Retailers are cheating. They never ever made margins as high as they have on man made diamonds

This is swimming in the same putrid stream as Rappaport.
First of all , it’s a gross generalization. Different sellers apply different margins. Was it cheating years back when jewelers used to be able to make “Triple Key”? Is it ok for certain websites to list natural diamonds at 5% over wholesale? In many cases diamonds they can’t even obtain?
When people insult lab diamonds or attack lab diamond sellers, they are insulting ALL diamond sellers.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Great to hear your viewpoint Garry!
We agree on much.
When it comes to Rap and what he’s doing , we diverge.


This is swimming in the same putrid stream as Rappaport.
First of all , it’s a gross generalization. Different sellers apply different margins. Was it cheating years back when jewelers used to be able to make “Triple Key”? Is it ok for certain websites to list natural diamonds at 5% over wholesale? In many cases diamonds they can’t even obtain?
When people insult lab diamonds or attack lab diamond sellers, they are insulting ALL diamond sellers.

We agree from different directions David.
Degrading competition never worked to get a leg up in life. Not in the long term!
Man made diamonds are going to be great for natural diamonds.
For several years LGD have been crawling up the legs of natural diamonds.
Natural diamond and Martin Rap need to learn to live with a new competition.

 

[oncrutchesrightnow]

. Supply of larger I plus Eye clean diamonds will drop and prices will rise.
Corolla vs German marques. Both go A to B.

Another effect that I am praying for is that natural diamonds will need to be better cut and polished to keep up with the better visual performance on man made diamonds.

Cool post. Any -particular reason for saying I-color? And by large, do you mean normal person large or PSer large (and if PSer, what decade… LOL)?

Totally agree on praying for better cut. Also praying and paying for diamond cutting and cooking ingenuity. (Shapes, ombre colors, etc.).

AND reports that note haziness, or whatever you want to call it.

Hey laboratories, if you still want it to be worth people’s time and money to grade LGD in the future, maybe haziness grading will be the metric that makes the lab report worthwhile. Just sayin’.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

The positives are for natural diamonds is prices will sky rocket.
Why?
Around half the output of most mines are low grade that no one on this forum would consider buying. They will and should be replaced by better looking man made diamonds. They will be in tennis bracelets etc. Many of you here are enjoying this option.
The effect will be that prospecting funding dries up. Many low grade mines will close. Supply of larger I plus Eye clean diamonds will drop and prices will rise.

I don't know about "sky rocket" - maybe long term - but this outlook tracks with logic. You don't need inside knowledge to predict these trends.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

CVD will also drive technologies to grade diamond transparency - my second biggest wish for natural diamond grading (which is the worst multi billion dollar cheating in our industry).

I'm reluctant to call it cheating as I don't like painting the whole of the diamond trade with that broad brush. But I agree that this is a major blind spot for consumers, and of course there are those traders who take advantage of it, and have been for a long, long time.

The gem laboratories are the ones we expect to educate and protect consumers. While there may be technical challenges in developing a method of reporting on this important characteristic ( both in lab grown and in natural), there is altogether too little discussion about this issue. It's almost like the 'elephant in the room' that the trade has wanted to pretend is not there.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I don't know about "sky rocket" - maybe long term - but this outlook tracks with logic. You don't need inside knowledge to predict these trends.

Yes. Long term Bryan.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

A

I'm reluctant to call it cheating as I don't like painting the whole of the diamond trade with that broad brush. But I agree that this is a major blind spot for consumers, and of course there are those traders who take advantage of it, and have been for a long, long time.

The gem laboratories are the ones we expect to educate and protect consumers. While there may be technical challenges in developing a method of reporting on this important characteristic ( both in lab grown and in natural), there is altogether too little discussion about this issue. It's almost like the 'elephant in the room' that the trade has wanted to pretend is not there.

And how is that not cheating from a consumer's point of view Bryan?????

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I forgot to add Bryan.
The largest Indian diamond cutters have for more than a decade alerted trade buyer's when diamonds are hazy and milky.
But the wholesalers and retailers who buy and sell those stones rarely if ever pass that information on.
If cutters can ID those stones and wholesalers would be dumb and out of business if they couldn't, who guards the ferryman?
If labs call diamonds that are loupe clean and VS because they're hazy or milky and use jargon like "Clarity based on Internal graining / Clouds not shown".
How is that not cheating?
Do labs do this to get more business and oil the wheels of commerce? If so, why? What's the motivation if you're a not for profit business?

 

[MissGotRocks]

I don't know about "sky rocket" - maybe long term - but this outlook tracks with logic. You don't need inside knowledge to predict these trends.

So if that might be the case long term, we would not expect natural diamond prices to fall short term?

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

I am travelling so time poor, no excuse, but fact.
I agree and disagree with David on many levels.
Mostly that manufactured diamonds will bring many more people to love diamonds all around the world. most will never buy a natural diamond.
Some of those new diamond lovers will aspire for as Rap calls it - the real thing.

The positives are for natural diamonds is prices will sky rocket.
Why?
Around half the output of most mines are low grade that no one on this forum would consider buying. They will and should be replaced by better looking man made diamonds. They will be in tennis bracelets etc. Many of you here are enjoying this option.
The effect will be that prospecting funding dries up. Many low grade mines will close. Supply of larger I plus Eye clean diamonds will drop and prices will rise.
Corolla vs German marques. Both go A to B.

Another effect that I am praying for is that natural diamonds will need to be better cut and polished to keep up with the better visual performance on man made diamonds. Man made diamonds will mostly be grown with CVD as making more HPHT presses will be like finding more diamond mines - they just cost too much.
CVD will also drive technologies to grade diamond transparency - my second biggest wish for natural diamond grading (which is the worst multi billion dollar cheating in our industry).

Out of politeness to David I have refrained from using the Gemmological correct terminologies.
Diamonds manufactured in factories are not grown or curated in labs. That is a fiction created for global economic reasons.
Since the first synthetic rubies and sapphires were grown using flame fusion. Ever since the principles have been: Natural (treated or not), synthetic i.e. of the same chemical and crystalline structure, and imitation e.g. synthetic spinel sold as sapphire.
If anyone wants to know why the term Lab Grown has become the norm, contact me privately, I am not hard to find. I do not wish to offend most of the people on this forum.

Finally, in support of Martin Rapaport - the LGD industry is trading off natural diamonds. This is very bad for consumers. Two things at 2 levels.
1. manufacturers are selling larger diamonds at prices per carat that are higher than that of smaller stones.
This is cheating based on the fact that a natural diamond of double the carat weigh cost 4 times more.
16 half carat natural diamonds cost about the same as one 4 carat stone.
16 half carat LGD diamonds cost less than one 4ct stone.
Growing, cutting and grading 16 half carat diamonds costs a lot more than growing cutting and grading one 4ct stone.
That is why manufacturers are cheating. They use the Rapaport natural diamond price list and claim they are giving 99% discounts!

2. Retailers are cheating. They never ever made margins as high as they have on man made diamonds.

good to hear from you Garry
i had been wondering where you were

 

[Texas Leaguer]

So if that might be the case long term, we would not expect natural diamond prices to fall short term?

We have already seen prices fall short term. I expect to see continued volatility, but a through-line with more of an upward trajectory over time.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I forgot to add Bryan.
The largest Indian diamond cutters have for more than a decade alerted trade buyer's when diamonds are hazy and milky.
But the wholesalers and retailers who buy and sell those stones rarely if ever pass that information on.
If cutters can ID those stones and wholesalers would be dumb and out of business if they couldn't, who guards the ferryman?
If labs call diamonds that are loupe clean and VS because they're hazy or milky and use jargon like "Clarity based on Internal graining / Clouds not shown".
How is that not cheating?
Do labs do this to get more business and oil the wheels of commerce? If so, why? What's the motivation if you're a not for profit business?

First, I will reiterate that I agree with you that consumers are being failed by lack of information around transparency. A significant number of the "unicorn" eye clean Si stones transparency issues. And these are very popular choices that vendors are happy to sell- they are priced well and often have very clean stone plots which they view as a selling point. I honestly do not think that many merchants and their sales people even know the stones have meaningful deficits as it is often very subtle. That is why I believe it is incumbent on the laboratories to report on it directly. "Clarity based on features not shown" is laboratory shorthand to check for transparency issues in Si stones. How many consumers know that, other than those very plugged in such as pricescopers? Why not make that clear to the consumer, even if just a comment and not an objective metric of some sort?

To you bigger point, yes the labs are businesses. And their biggest constituency are members of the trade, even though their stated mission is consumer education/protection. This sets up a conflict of interest.

The main reason that GIA was so slow to report on overall cut quality, and when they did it was overly broad and forgiving (and limited to rounds), was that their main constituency had a huge investment in inventories full of mediocre to poor cut diamonds which were being promoted and sold as well cut diamonds, and on which they were likely to take big hits on value and liquidity if they were accurately graded for cut. GIA only did it because they were forced to by demand that was being filled by AGSL and other labs doing cut grading.

As you point out, there is hope that the interest in CVD diamonds may serve as impetus for labs to start reporting on transparency. I have been told by a person in a position to know at one of the top tier labs that they are working on this. I will be delighted to see it happen, I just hope I live long enough to see it.