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Til' Debt Do Us Part (NY Times Article)

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boredstiff

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 21, 2009
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145
Very interesting article, which profiles some engaged couples with staggering amounts of debt:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/04/your-money/04money.html

and reader comments:

http://community.nytimes.com/comments/bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/03/til-debt-do-us-part/

Would you marry someone who sprung a whole bunch of debt on you ($100K+) or would you marry them anyways, for love. I have a friend whose girlfriend (fiancee) has $100K+ of law school debt and he's just going to pay it out of his own pocket. Kicker is she doesn't want to be a lawyer any more (she just graduated in May).
 
No I would not marry anyone who has differing financial values and principles from me.

Money is not everything, but the attitude of money reflects one's character. While I understand about the student debt, I would not marry anyone who has credit card debt and refuse to pay them off in a responsible manner.
 
Depends on how they got the debt. Credit card debt so that they could have a fancy new TV? No way. Not only did they go into debt for something that won't help them out (like an education), but it would show me a lot about what they value (a TV over financial security? Not my kind of guy).

But school debt or a mortgage? As long as it was fairly reasonable (I don't want to be paying off a McMansion, if I'm being totally honest) it isn't a deal breaker.
 
Well it depends on the circumstances. If this was debt accrued earlier in life when he was young and stupid, or had some unforseen circumstances like a layoff he had not prepared for, then I could see past it IF he were now on the same page about not only not taking on more debt, but by aggressively paying it off and working to stay within a budget. If it were a large sum for a student loan, I would be okay with it if he were working and making a good living off his degree he spent so much on and aggressively paying down the balance...
 
I do understand that people get sick and things happen beyond our control, but this is not remotely close to that.

$170,000 of student loans and she doesn't even have a bachelor's degree, are you kidding me? If she was in medical school or law school or getting her PhD, that's totally different. Getting into that much debt because she doesn't know what she wants to do? If I were her fiancee, I would have left too.

I would never be with someone who is fiscally irresponsible, much less marry someone like it. I've work too damn hard to keep my credit score near perfect, have zero debt, and a substantial retirement savings, a good stock portfolio, and a good savings account to have it tarnished by someone else. While I understand that love is important, being fiscally irresponsible = character flaw = dealbreaker.
 
I married my husband for love, and now we're working on his credit. No regrets.
 
We all have financial commitments to make, some have bigger commitments than others. I have no debt, but I do have financial commitments, such as saving for retirement and my brother's university education. My financial commitments might seem small to some but are big to me, considering I don't earn a salary.

I believe it's important to be upfront about these financial commitments right at the start of the relationship. For instance, when I met my now-fiance, I made it clear to him that I had debt and the reason behind my debt - two years earlier, I had booked myself into rehab for chemical dependency issues and needed extensive one-on-one therapy after that. He understood that this debt was non-negotiable. If I had not gone to rehab, chances are, I would not be the person I am today. So, I guess for me my rehab is on par with some people's student debt - It was a necessary expense. I have since settled this debt and am glad it's behind me now.

But racking up $170 000 in student loans for a photography course? WTH?! And then only paying the minimum balance, not even making the effort to find ways to minimize the debt, or even making the effort to find out what the total balance is?! No, that reeks of poor financial planning. That would make me nervous, not the actual debt.

Yet I applaud the other girl who has $250 000 in student loans. She has taken on this debt to significantly increase her earning potential. To me, that is smart debt. That is an investment in their future.
 
I'm sorry, I got so carried away in sharing my thoughts on the article I forgot to answer your questions!
boredstiff said:
Very interesting article, which profiles some engaged couples with staggering amounts of debt:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/04/your-money/04money.html

and reader comments:

http://community.nytimes.com/comments/bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/03/til-debt-do-us-part/

Would you marry someone who sprung a whole bunch of debt on you ($100K+)
I would not marry someone who just "sprung it on me". If he had been clear about it from the start, it's fine, especially if there's a legitimate reason for the debt - mortgage, education, health problems, family problems, are some examples.

or would you marry them anyways, for love.
Love is important, and to me, love means having dovetailing values. I don't think I'd love (and consequently be able to marry) someone who has $100 000 in frivolous "luxury lifestyle" debt.

I have a friend whose girlfriend (fiancee) has $100K+ of law school debt and he's just going to pay it out of his own pocket.
Very silly of him, imho. She took out those loans. Why can't she pay them?

Kicker is she doesn't want to be a lawyer any more (she just graduated in May).
So why did she go to law school? Will she be embarking on a different career path or will she just be expecting him to look after her?
Click to expand...
 
I wouldn't marry someone who had accrued that debt without doing anything productive, for sure. If they had a life goal and it fit into that, then fine. Not everyone has a daddy who can pay for college. After reading that I feel lucky to have relatively low debt and have my graduate degree. My husband had about as much debt as I did and he's almost halfway done with his student loans only 3 years out of school. He handled the debt responsibly and I aspire to be like him.
 
I would not help pay off any debt that wasn't accrued due to either medical or educational reasons. Luckily, FI does not have any debt because I would have found it very difficult to walk away from him even if he had mountains of debt.
 
zhuzhu said:
No I would not marry anyone who has differing financial values and principles from me.

Money is not everything, but the attitude of money reflects one's character. While I understand about the student debt, I would not marry anyone who has credit card debt and refuse to pay them off in a responsible manner.
Click to expand...

Ditto. I'm of the camp that if you can't afford it, don't buy it! I could never be with someone who doesn't spend by that mantra. Education is a bit different though.
 
princesss said:
Depends on how they got the debt. Credit card debt so that they could have a fancy new TV? No way. Not only did they go into debt for something that won't help them out (like an education), but it would show me a lot about what they value (a TV over financial security? Not my kind of guy).

But school debt or a mortgage? As long as it was fairly reasonable (I don't want to be paying off a McMansion, if I'm being totally honest) it isn't a deal breaker.
Click to expand...

This exactly. And I'm glad my FI feels the same way, as I'm bringing a fairly large amount of student loan debt to the table. However, I carry no credit card debt and my education has fortunately allowed me to get a job with a large enough salary to pay my loans off faster than making minimum payments. He also carries no credit card debt and almost no student loan debt, and has graciously offered to make my student loan payments a joint bill every month once we get married, instead of them coming from my own funds (we plan on keeping separate fun money accounts for things like mani/pedis, hair cuts, and presents!)...
 
I found the reader comments to be intriguing, but a bit depressing: there seems to be a strong belief in operation that liberal arts degrees are now the purview of the independently wealthy. As a corollary to that, there's the belief that women, specifically, are getting these degrees in the belief that some dude will come along to rescue them from their "magical thinking" ... and that's before we even get into the deeply weird commentators out there who use every. single. article. related to marriage to tell people not to do it, and how they now only date women from other countries because American women are so entitled.

I swear, the comments sections on NYT pieces are like seething pits of national neuroses.
 
I don't know how someone can be 177K in debt and think it wasn't a huge deal, not even know to the what 10's of thousands of dollars it was? :nono: . did she have some fantasy some prince charming would come along and erase her debt for her? With her career choices doesn't sound like she'd be able to pay it on her own. Unfortunately for her there are alot of other attractive interesting woman with their head on their shoulders that do not have her financial baggage that she is competing with.
 
When we got engaged, I paid off DH's credit card debt (it was $5k -- settled for $3.5k). I had no debt and a trust fund, I guess you'd call it (I think of it more as a "nest egg"). I felt that we were going from "his and hers" to "ours," and I didn't want us to have that debt. When my dad died and we got a little inheritance, we paid off his student loans. Again, because it was our debt and our money, not his debt and my inheritance. Plus, I wanted our credit scores to be as good as possible.

Now I am a SAHM, and I'm glad that I was able to be generous and supportive with money early in our marriage . . . because now I don't have an income and I need him to do the same.

We have couple friends with the his/hers/ours accounts, but that didn't work for us.
 
Circe, I don't believe that a liberal art degree is the purvue of the independently wealthy, but there does seem to be this disconnect of people both getting a liberal arts degrees AND getting them from expensive private colleges, without considering the financial consequences of their educational choices. That is, they accrued lots of loan debt to get an expensive degree, but small chances of making enough money from their degree to pay off those debts.

My husband got a BFA because his primary desire was to be a visual artist. So it was like a dream come true when he got a partial scholarship to a prestigious school, and was able to attend classes with artists and professors he admired. He doesn't regret his experience. It wasn't until he had college friends accruing debt to get MFA's from prestigious institutions, and STILL not being able to get a teaching job, let alone support themselves with their art, when he realized what a lack of return from a career standpoint his degree was. The institution did NOTHING to educate their students about this reality, or to help them get jobs afteer college.

So it's partly the student's and their parents' fault for not educating their children about the implication of these educational choices. But I feel these colleges are doing a disservice to these students by glossing over these realities while they are sending out their shiny brochures.

Summary of the story: if you want a liberal arts degree, get it from a public university and don't expect to based your happiness on material security. Even better have a plan how you will use your degree/experience to translate to a some kind of career.
 
It would depend on what the debt was for... Credit card debt/outstanding loans/cars/etc... No way!!! But I don't consider student loans to be in the same category of debt as these others... If the person was going to school for a profession that requires a lot of school (doctors or other advanced degrees) then of course it's fine! If it's someone that just keeps going back because they don't like what they chose, or just don't want to get a job (I know a few) then that tells me that they are poor decision makers/planners, and in my book are not marriage material. (For me)
 
I definitely couldn't marry someone who had substantial debt b/c they lived above their means. Students loans, while different, would still freak me out a bit. I was extremely lucky and came out of college/grad. school with no debt (and believe me, I STILL thank my parents for that...we began saving for our two kids before they were even born). I was able to save my income and purchase a home when I was still single, while maxing out 401k, etc. My husband, who is 9 years older than I am, had no debt when we got engaged, but he had no savings either. He did max out his 401k, but that was about it. We had a very serious conversation about my need to feel financially secure and what "secure" meant to me. We agreed to keep a strict budget for 6 months to track our spending patterns etc. to determine what we, as a couple, could save each month. Once we had that info, we went to see a financial planner immediately and still use him almost 10 years later.

So if I'm being honest, I don't know if I could marry someone with $170K in debt, even if their job prospects were excellent.
 
To answer it, I tried to think "What if MY husband had told me after we were engaged that he had that debt?" It is easy to say you would not marry "someone" if they had a lot of debt, but what about your spouse, if you went back in time?

My husband had about 10k in debt when we met and that did not really bother me. Most was from buying out his car, the interest rate was low. I also had about 3k. When we married it just became our debt and neither of us worried about it.

But if he had told me he has $180k in debt I would want him to resolve it in some way before we married. I don't know what they means to me, but that is so much money that it would take 20 years to pay off at an affordable rate, and that is frankly scary and ridiculous. I think we would have had to look into bankruptcy (how is that spelled??) or something, but of course that has its own repercussions.

I honestly just don't know what I would have done! I can say for sure, though, that it would have been a BIG issue for me.
 
Dreamer, I think you hit the nail on the head. If I found this info out early on in the relationship, I would probably bail, but once you're to the point where you want to spend the rest of your life with someone it would be much more complicated.
 
It's hard for me to imagine this happening because of the way my FI and I have done things. We took our student loans out while we were a couple and bought a house together, so we are fully aware of each other's debt.

BUT, if we were somehow in a scenario where there wasn't full financial disclosure and he sprung this on me, I probably wouldn't break up with him but would definitely not marry him until we worked through his deception and money issues (if that could be done).

We each left school with 100k+ debt but are lucky enough to have jobs that allow us to pay it down ahead of schedule. I don't know that I'd be able to commit to someone who had that kind of debt and no advance degree or job to show for it. I certainly would have to reevaluate my goals and expectations for life. I guess the guy would have to be really worth it! A nice reminder to plug away at those student loans!
 
Recklessly accrued debt? No, but that would mean that there would be other red flags already anyhow. Student loans? Yes, within reason. My FI has about 30K in student loan debt and he was up front about it from the very beginning. If it was 170K, yeah I'm sure I'd have reservations about taking on that debt as mine too unless he had a plan to pay a significant portion of that debt without it having a huge impact on our daily lives.

For us, our money has been pooled together since shortly after we moved in together, before we were even engaged. We share expenses, income, and debt. Luckily, I'm debt free so we don't have two larger debts to pay off, however I do bring two little girls into our relationship from my previous marriage and he has no hesitations about raising them with me. I'm sure in the long run, that's going to be a lot more expensive than his relatively small student loan debt. :roll:
 
I think the only way I would marry someone with 100K plus debt is if it were from Law or Medical school debt - or another career with high earning potential. That kind of debt is more like an "investment" to me. 100+K accumulated while "studying for" a bachelors degree? Big flag for sure.
 
Just makes me glad that I don't have student loans.
The only debt SO and I have are 2 credit cards that we racked up together and will pay off together.
 
part gypsy said:
Circe, I don't believe that a liberal art degree is the purvue of the independently wealthy, but there does seem to be this disconnect of people both getting a liberal arts degrees AND getting them from expensive private colleges, without considering the financial consequences of their educational choices. That is, they accrued lots of loan debt to get an expensive degree, but small chances of making enough money from their degree to pay off those debts.

.... it's partly the student's and their parents' fault for not educating their children about the implication of these educational choices. But I feel these colleges are doing a disservice to these students by glossing over these realities while they are sending out their shiny brochures.

Summary of the story: if you want a liberal arts degree, get it from a public university and don't expect to based your happiness on material security. Even better have a plan how you will use your degree/experience to translate to a some kind of career.
Click to expand...

Oh, I quite agree with you - I'm the eponymous liberal arts Ph.D. from a poor background, and I got my education via my parents putting me through city college, and then via a collection of fellowships and scholarships that covered my advanced degrees and gave me enough to live on. I have friends who took out massive loans to fund their Ivy BAs: they're going to be paying 4 great years off for the rest of their lives. Some regret it, and some don't ... but none of them is waiting for some dude to play the role of Steve Martin in "The Shopgirl" to save them from a life of student loan payments. On the whole, when I consider the alternative to the pricey BA (i.e., me), I'm quite happy to encourage my students to eschew Freddie Mac.

All that said, though, I think the article presented a somewhat disproportionately gendered view of educational debt, and that the comments deepened the disparity. Alternately, P.S. has mostly female posters in Hangout, so we're seeing a lot more ladies responding on the topic of male debtors. And, for whatever reason - gender of posters, the nature of PS as opposed to the nature of the NYT board - I'm seeing a lot less of this "gold-digging" suspicion ....
 
DH married me even though I have substantial student debt from undergrad/grad school (it's not 6 figures, but it will be by the time we get it paid off). However, I was upfront about my circumstances from the beginning.

All debts are considered "ours", he went into the marriage with both eyes open. We maintain joint accounts and pay all bills through both of our salaries. Despite this, I do think he is a bit resentful of the debt I brought in (though he is wonderful man who would never say it out loud). Because we pay a high proportion of our salaries to this debt, we can not max out our retirement funds and contribute relatively little to savings. If he had married someone without debt, perhaps he would be living more comfortably.

If I had to do it over again, I would do it differently. Unfortunately, my 18 year old self didn't have much of a concept of how long I would be saddled with student debt, and what is done is done!

Still, 170k for photography would really worry me. If you are going to go into so much debt for school, it should probably be in a field where the salary is sufficient to pay down the loans...
 
170k for photography??

I wouldn't touch this person with a bargepole, sorry.
 
I married dh knowing he had over 100k in student loans because I love him and him I with about 10k in various debts car, credit, etc). There is more to life than money and we will work our way through this as we have other things :)
 
random_thought said:
I married dh knowing he had over 100k in student loans because I love him and him I with about 10k in various debts car, credit, etc). There is more to life than money and we will work our way through this as we have other things :)
Click to expand...

My DH had a decent amount of debt from being laid off, but I had some, too. So we found our own solution for it.

My problem with debt for student loans would be if he didn't have a really brilliant job with fabulous income to show for it. Where did the hypothetical 100k go if he isn't making bank afterward?
 
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