Thoughts on this diamond

[NoviceAP]

Hi guys,

What are your thoughts on this MMD? It’s a 1.87 carat, F, VS 1, ideal cut graded by IGI.




I don’t know why this image of the diamond is gray (I think they graphically tweaked it to show the arrows clearly) but that’s a snapshot of the video available.

It’s priced slightly below $8000. Thoughts?

 

[Justin1981]

Hi I need help I have quite a few loose diamonds I'm wondering about

 

[Justin1981]

Any chance you can help me

 

[kgizo]

@sledge - any thoughts?

 

[sledge]

Thanks for tagging me @kgizo. I normally don't visit the MMD as I prefer natural mined stones. However, I think some of the same comments apply so I will list them. For the MMD experts, if I step on your toes I apologize as I am not meaning to.

1. Immediately alarms go off when I see an IGI certificate; however, I understand that GIA and AGS aren't really issuing grading certs at the same level as IGI does for synthetics. For mined diamonds, I can't trust the color, clarity or proportions listed on an IGI cert which is why alarms go off for me.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/gia-grading-of-lab-grown-diamonds.238380/

2. When looking for mined ideal cut stones, staying within these parameters will pay you dividends:

• 54-57 table
• 60-62.4 depth (prefer <62)
• 34-35 crown (maybe 35.5, if paired with 40.6 pavilion)
• 40.6-40.9 pavilion (maybe 41, if paired with 34 crown)
• 75-80 LGF's
• Crown & pavilion angles must be complimentary! In other words, a shallow crown paired with a steep pavilion (34/40.9) or a steep crown with a shallow pavilion (35/40.6) is very complimentary and works well. Also, the infamous 34.5/40.8 or 34.5/40.7 works well also as that is near perfect Tolk proportions (34.5/34.75).

3. This stone has the following properties: 56.5 table, 62.3 depth, 34.8 crown & 40.9 pavilion. LGF and star values not provided.

The table is fine at 56.5. Depth is border line at 62.3 but works. Crown of 34.8 and pavilion of 40.9 work well as individual values but IMO is not a complimentary combination. Essentially this 34.8/40.9 (aka 35/41) combo is stacking a steep crown and steep pavilion together. Once you go past the 41 degree pavilion mark things can get bad very fast. And this is where I get conflicted. I don't trust IGI certs. So I'm not sure how tight that 40.9 value is. I know on GIA certs, a 40.9 could very well be over the 41 mark because of the way they average & round and that is from a trusted lab.

As such I see this stone as risky. Borderline depth combined with that steep crown/steep pavilion does not sit well with me.

4. To eliminate risk, request the selling vendor to provide you an idealscope and/or ASET image that proves light performance. Also, requesting a hearts & arrow (H&A) image would provide confirmation of symmetry and further help confirm how well cut (or not) the stone actually is.

 

[sledge]

Obviously a 1.80-1.90 F VS1 isn't going to happen in a natural mined stone for $8,000.

Do you have some bare minimums? Also, can you clarify budget?

Working blindly, here are some natural mined options for $8k or less as big as possible with VS+ clarity and ideal cut proportions.


1.66ct K VS2 @ $7,047 (57 table, 61.6 depth, 35/40.6, 75 LGF)
https://www.yadavjewelry.com/diamond/round-diamond-1.66-carat-k-vs2-yd4686997
https://www.fourmine.com/shop/diamo...ce=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=2018

Very promising. Ideal proportions. Request ASET, idealscope & H&A images.

1.58ct J VVS2 @ $7,668 (57 table, 61.7 depth, 34.5/40.8, 75 LGF)
https://www.yadavjewelry.com/diamond/round-diamond-1.58-carat-j-vvs2-yd4814707
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R158-371063Z50?utm_source=rarecarat&utm_medium=cpc

Wow, LOVE the proportions. VVS2 clarity is a bonus. ASET looks good. It does have medium blue fluor (MBF) but normally isn't an issue (about 1-2% of all stones) and may help slightly whiten the stone a little bit. However, always check to ensure -- so ask Yadav if the stone has a hazy/milky look from the fluor.

Also available at multiple vendors. Slightly cheaper ($7,630) at ED.

 

[kgizo]

@sledge has given you some good advice, especially point 3 about why this stone could be risky. If you want a MMD you should get one. If you are open to other options I think the 1.58 J VVS2 sledge found looks beautiful.

 

[NoviceAP]

@sledge and @kgizo thank you both so much!!! This is a lot of information — I will take time to really understand and really apprecite your input on this.

Yes, price is the main reason why I was looking into an MMD. I wanted to get the biggest size possible for the limited budget and an MMD seemed to provide a nice compromise.

Anyways, I got some more information on this stone (literally just now) and honestly the info seems too technical to really appreciate what it means. I am going through this also, but in the meantime, I will post them below.



In the snapshot of the video, it seems like not all 8 arrows are visible at once - not sure if this impacts the cut quality...

I feel guilty for asking you guys to take a look at this again but would appreciate your thoughts!

 

[sledge]

Do not buy this stone, it's not well cut. As expected, you have light leakage underneath the table. See those black and white spots on the ASET image? That is the leakage.

Here is a comparison view of what a good ASET looks like compared to the ASET on this stone:



Notice how the one on the left is solid red? That is good. Also, you have some funky stuff going on around the outside edges where you have more green shown as well but that is less severe and could be forgiven if the table didn't have leakage.

Here is a view with yellow circles around the leakage area.




Also, the symmetry of this stone is a disaster. It's often said that a good hearts image will tell us more about the stone then anything. Again, on the left is a good hearts image and on the right is the hearts image of this stone. I think it's rather apparent the differences.



Below is the same image with some color markups and additional explanations:

• Purple outline - The image on the left shows how all 8 hearts should be symmetrical. You can see they vary wildly on this diamond.
• Blue circle - The image on the left shows there should be zero to minimal ripping in the clefts of the heart. No greater than 5% variance amongst each heart. The rips in the clefts are pretty wild on this particular stone and has no consistency from stone to stone.
• Green outline - These little chevron shaped pieces should all be consistent. Exact thickness varies from diamond to diamond. For instance a stone with 75% LGF will have a skinnier chevron than a stone with 80% LGF. The sample on the left has 77% LGF. The SARIN report shows this stone to vary between 77.41% & 81.30% with an average of 78.7%. If this was a GIA stone, the values would simply be reported as 80%. Nonetheless I'd expect the sample & actual diamond to have similar sized chevrons & we can see once again they vary quite wildly.
• Grey lines - Look at the tips of the hearts and see how this stone actually forms little crows feet? They should come to a point like on the left.
• Teal lines - Look at the shoulder of the hearts and notice how these too vary in width. Once again, you want consistent widths and these are all over the place.

 

[NoviceAP]

Do not buy this stone

Thank you @sledge your analysis makes perfect sense and I’ve learned a ton. I see so many reasons why this is not a good choice so I will pass on this one... thank you very much

 

[sledge]

Thank you @sledge your analysis makes perfect sense and I’ve learned a ton. I see so many reasons why this is not a good choice so I will pass on this one... thank you very much

You're welcome. The next question becomes how can we better help you reach your end goal? Perhaps answering a few questions would provide us some insight:

1. What is your max budget for the stone?

2. Do you have any logistic requirements (overseas, USA, etc)?

3. What is the lowest color you will accept?

4. What size would you prefer? What is the minimum?

5. How you do prioritize the 4 C's (color, cut, carat weight & clarity). As you are learning, diamonds are somewhat of a zero sum game meaning that when your budget is fixed then you must adjust up or down the 4 C's to make things balance.

While you are free to prioritize however you like I strongly recommend you always make cut your #1 goal. Why? Not only does it have more sparkle/fire, but they also look whiter and appear larger. This video does a great job at explaining how two identical size stones (1 carat) look entirely different because of the way they are cut.

 

[NoviceAP]

Thank you @sledge you are so kind!

So this purchase is going to be an upgrade for me actually. I got my current stone for around $6300 (1.27 carat) and the vendor I bought it from (BN) requires I spend double the amount if I want to upgrade. So the minimum I would have to spend if I were to get a mined diamond is at least $7650 (=6300 + setting (which would be 1350 in the minimum since I’m looking for platinum with delicate probgs). I shopped around a bit and I realized I would have to spend significantly more than that if I wanted to get something 1.8 carat or above and of good quality (VS2 or better and H or higher). And I just couldn’t justify having to spend more than $8000 to get a bigger stone when I already have a ring.

So anyways that’s why I turned to an MMD and I found two additional stones that look promising:

Option 1: https://www.brilliantearth.com/lab-diamonds-search/view_detail/7037556/

Option 2: https://www.brilliantearth.com/lab-diamonds-search/view_detail/6608989/

Do you see a big difference in terms of quality? I’m not super color sensitive and I’m also fine with clarity as long as it’s eye clean so unless there is a big difference between the two I’m guessing Option 1 would be a more economical choice.

As a side note, when I got the diamond I currently have, I thought it was a huge bargain because I got an eye clean 1.27 carat H colored SI2 diamond for only $6300. After I found pricescope I saw that this diamond is HCA 5.5. I thought I got a good value back then but didn’t know it was cheaper because of the cut quality! (And it’s also slightly milky...)

Anyways, I’m actually interested in choosing between the two (unless there is a flaw in these diamonds I’m not seeing) and of course would love to hear your thoughts as there might be something I overlooked!

 

[NoviceAP]

I realize the crown/pavillion angles are not shown in the links:

These were both graded by GCAL.

Option 1:

Table: 58%
Depth: 61.2%
Crown: 35
Pavillion: 40.8 (I guess this means steep crown and steep pavillion...)

Option 2:

Table: 57%
Depth: 61.1%
Crown: 34
Pavillion: 40.8

I found these two stones on another website and the price difference between the two is just $580. I like the cut quality of option 2 better but I am seeing that the diameter of option 1 is slightly bigger (0.1 mm bigger but still haha). Would option 2 be worth the additional $580?

 

[sledge]

I will comment more on the MMD's later. I am getting ready to be on the road for a little bit.

Before I do that. Check out this mined stone on BN.

1.90ct I VS2 @ $12,933
https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-de...AMONDS&track=viewDiamondDetails&action=newTab

57 table, 61.7 depth, 35 crown, 40.6 pavilion & 75 LGF's

This stone has gorgeous proportions and big fat sexy arrows to boot. It will be a little sparkle bomb.

Has a black crystal on the table but it's VS2 so I'm thinking it's eye clean. It does have strong blue fluor which could help whiten the stone a little. Just need to double check and make sure it doesn't have a negative effect (milky or hazy) on the stone. The majority of stones with flour aren't negatively affected and I wouldn't be scared of strong fluor on an I stone if it checks out.

This would qualify you to use the trade-in program: $6,300 original stone price x 2 = $12,600 minimum plus your $1,350 for the setting = $13,950 total - $6,300 original price = $7,650 out of pocket expense + $333 over $12,600 minimum = $7,983 total cost

 

[sledge]

FYI, please place that stone on hold while you decide. Don't want someone poaching it from you.

 

[NoviceAP]

FYI, please place that stone on hold while you decide. Don't want someone poaching it from you.

WHAT A COINCIDENCE

actually that was the stone I was considering upgrading to when I was looking on BN!! I had it on hold for like two weeks and then I decided against it... (and I asked them to release it just yesterday!) The total cost actually came out to be $7204 just for the diamond (because of the tax) and plus the setting it would have been $8554 out of pocket... sad

 

[NoviceAP]

If I go with option 2 above, my out of pocket cost would be approximately $5700 (assumes selling my current diamond for $4000) so it would be cheaper by around $2850 ish..

(And if I go with Option 1, my out of pocket cost would be around $5100, which sounds a lot nicer than $8550)

 

[sledge]

If I go with option 2 above, my out of pocket cost would be approximately $5700 (assumes selling my current diamond for $4000) so it would be cheaper by around $2850 ish..

(And if I go with Option 1, my out of pocket cost would be around $5100, which sounds a lot nicer than $8550)

I'm not getting to the same math as you. Here is how I see it:

Option 1 = $9,860 MMD + 1,350 setting = $11,210 - $4,000 current stone = $7,210 out of pocket

Option 2 = $11,350 MMD + 1,350 setting = $12,700 - $4,000 current stone = $8,700 out of pocket

That's without any taxes and the assumption you find a buyer for your current stone without having to pay commission fees, etc. You mentioned earlier, your current stone wasn't well cut so I think it will be a difficult sale. Regardless, selling a pre-loved stone is rarely easy and stress free. And if you need the funds from the stone to move on and make a purchase, it holds up that process as well.

Not trying to discourage you. Just making sure you are looking at an apples-to-apples comparison.

I definitely wouldn't pay more for a MMD. And personally for a $1,000 or so difference I'd rather have mined. But as I noted early on I personally value mined differently than lab grown/MMD.

 

[kmoro]

Before I say anything, I should say that I also prefer mined diamonds, but I have nothing against lab grown except for the changes to the market that has been caused by Lightbox and the lack of resale value.

The thing is, spending $7000 or so on a MMD right now just doesn’t seem wise to me. The price of that MMD might come down as much as 80% within the next year or two.

I’m just not sure it’s a good value or a good time to buy MMDs. Once the market adjusts and the prices fall across all vendors, it will be a much better option. I don’t have a crystal ball, and this is just my opinion.

Have you asked any other vendors if they’ll take your stone as a trade in? Sometimes they will at a big discount of course, like 30%, but it would save you the hassle of selling yourself.

 

[OoohShiny]

@sledge and @kgizo thank you both so much!!! This is a lot of information — I will take time to really understand and really apprecite your input on this.

Yes, price is the main reason why I was looking into an MMD. I wanted to get the biggest size possible for the limited budget and an MMD seemed to provide a nice compromise.

Anyways, I got some more information on this stone (literally just now) and honestly the info seems too technical to really appreciate what it means. I am going through this also, but in the meantime, I will post them below.



In the snapshot of the video, it seems like not all 8 arrows are visible at once - not sure if this impacts the cut quality...

I feel guilty for asking you guys to take a look at this again but would appreciate your thoughts!

I am confused...

I thought AGS were not grading MMDs 'properly' (i.e. with ASETscope images)??

 

[NoviceAP]

I actually pulled the trigger on one of the MMDs from BE and received the ring a few days ago.

I took pictures of my original ring (1.27 carat mined diamond) and the new ring (1.9 carat MMD). It’d be great if you could let me know which looks better on my finger (I never thought I would think this and it might be because I’m not used to seeing this size, but the smaller size seems to be a better fit for my tiny size 4 finger?).

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!



One on the left is 1.27 carat mined diamond with HCA score of 5+
The one on the right is 1.9 carat MMD with HCA score of 1.7.

 

[OcnGypZ]

I like the smaller of the two with your wedding band. Your band is overwhelmed by the larger stone. Although.... you could always get a new band with larger stones!

 

[NoviceAP]

I like the smaller of the two with your wedding band. Your band is overwhelmed by the larger stone. Although.... you could always get a new band with larger stones!

Thanks! What do you think about the size of the stone on my hand/finger? Understand it’s hard to tell just from these pictures but I’m not sure whether the 2 carat just looks bulky. But I want it to be pretty, not just big!

 

[kmoro]

I think the bigger one looks better! I think the ring looks better with the bigger stone on the existing band ... and that makes me think it looks better ... and I think you’ll get used to the size. You must love the better light performance!

 

[OoohShiny]

Have you worn the new ring out and about to get to know its light performance in different lighting environments?

If you haven't, I think the added sparkle and performance of a stone with complementary pavilion and crown angles (hence HCA<2) should aid your decision-making lol

Don't forget about DSS - that 1.9 will look 'normal' in no time!

You could wear it as your daily ring until a few days before the window for Returns is up, then wear your original ring for a day - your original ring might then look 'small' because you're used to the new size

 

[kgizo]

I like the bigger stone better on your finger and with your current band.

 

[xxxxxx]

I don't think the new diamond looks bulky at all. I like it more than your "old" diamond

 

[elizat]

I think the new one looks very nice. I agree- you will get used to the size too.