Thoughts on the numbers

[autumngems]

Ahem....I found your unicorn earlier today, but "only" in a 2 carat variant. Hopefully the OP of that thread jumped on it.

Sadly any CBI stone with more than faint flour isn't upgradable, I had this discussion yesterday as I was hoping to cut one with flour?

 

[sledge]

Sadly any stone with more than faint flour isn't upgradable, I had this discussion yesterday as I was hoping to cut one with flour?

What -- for real? HPD/CBI told you this? Interesting to know. But not sure why. They better update that webpage or they will get a pissed off customer.

@Wink

 

[lovedogs]

Sadly any CBI stone with more than faint flour isn't upgradable, I had this discussion yesterday as I was hoping to cut one with flour?

Who told you that? Pretty sure any CBI is part of their upgrade program. When I got mine custom cut, I said I was open to flour and they didn't mention anything about it being not eligible for upgrade.

 

[autumngems]

I talked (via email) to Layla yesterday about having a CBI cut from a piece she found that had strong flour and she said they would cut it but it would be a one-off with no buyback and no upgrade due to the flour.

Another piece only had faint flour that one would have the buyback and upgrade. Cannot have more than faint.

I like the strong flour but I want to be able to upgrade if I want to

 

[Dancing Fire]

I talked (via email) to Layla yesterday about having a CBI cut from a piece she found that had strong flour and she said they would cut it but it would be a one-off with no buyback and no upgrade due to the flour.

Another piece only had faint flour that one would have the buyback and upgrade. Cannot have more than faint.

I like the strong flour but I want to be able to upgrade if I want to

Maybe they draw the line at med blue flour?

 

[autumngems]

I was told no more than faint/negligible.

I looked through my emails and the first one from WINK states they would not cut a stone with flour and have the upgrade and buyback policy.

I emailed Layla


So I guess there ARE Buyback and Upgrade restrictions.

 

[sledge]

Thank you for clarifying @autumngems.

I wonder if because it's a CUSTOM cut order it changes? Although I'm not sure why. Given the fact CBI sources rough and is so selective I can't imagine it would really matter if it was a custom cut or not.

What level of fluor was your custom cut @lovedogs? Do you have in writing either way about the upgrade & buyback policies?

I don't think too many medium+ fluor CBI stones exist, so maybe they are still figuring out how to properly market these type of stones. My guess would be that they are trying to protect their main brand that is known for faint/none levels of fluor. BGD did so by offering BGD Signature, BGD Blue, etc.

Hoping @Wink @John Pollard or @Paul-Antwerp chimes in.

 

[WinkHPD]

Hello. Let me first assure everyone that all diamonds sold from our normal-production are upgradeable, including any with fluorescence.

There is a more involved answer in this case. I suspect this involves a “Crafted To Order” quotation. To explain, we are regularly providing custom-cut diamonds outside of normal production. Usually 3, 4 and 5+ carat diamonds for enthusiasts desiring a larger Crafted by Infinity. It’s a program I love immensely, because the customer gets to entertain finished weight, color and clarity options projected for actual raw candidate crystals in Antwerp. Then they are able to follow and see things through to completion. These diamonds are typically also covered by our guarantees and benefits.

But we have limitations in custom order areas. In one example we had a client who really, really, really wanted a 3 carat D Flawless Crafted by Infinity. I had to inform him that there was no way “FL” could be guaranteed. That is due to stubborn and unpredictable capriciousness by the labs with that nasty grade. This could be another topic (an interesting one) but the bottom line is that unlike carat weight, color and clarity, we cannot guarantee the specific grade of Flawless. Now I am happy to report delivering a 3.50 D Flawless CBI, indeed. But we could not make such an assurance to that client up front, as that volatility is far larger than we are.

How does this relate to Fluorescence? Here’s how. Sometimes people ask us to produce fluorescent diamonds. That is fine but the reality is that fluorescent diamonds are universally traded at a discount, usually in proportion to the strength of fluorescence. The color range makes some difference but, whatever the case, diamonds with medium and higher fluorescence always trade at a discount. This market volatility regarding fluorescence is something we cannot control, even if certain of us disagree with it (I personally love fluorescence). For better or worse, the volatility has only increased over time. Some diamond traders completely avoid any fluorescence whatsoever. So recovering and re-selling a diamond with notably high-fluorescence becomes far more challenging than one without.

You may notice that other companies selling fluorescent diamonds limit their guarantees to a certain time-period. Our policies are unrestricted and unlimited. So when it comes to market forces out of our control we must consider, and do make stipulations, about what custom requests come under the umbrella of our lifetime guarantees.

I hope this is helpful.

Wink

 

[Dreamer_D]

Just a personal preference. The 80% LGF does have quicker smaller flashes vs the 76% bigger flashes....

This is a photo showing a 2.5ct "super-ideal" style H&A RB with ~80% lgf next to an Early Ideal cut that is the precursor to the MRB but still cut to Tolk ideal proportions, which has ~70% lgf. I think it shows what @Karl_K was walking about, which is the darker obstruction that *can* happen under the table when you get shorter LGFs with a very small table. Photos only tell a small part of the story, of course. In person, the difference in lower halves and the smaller table (~50%) really change how the diamond handles light compared to the MRB. Comparing these two diamonds, for example, exaggerates the difference that @Dancing Fire is talking about with his two MRBs. FWIW, in person, the owner of the MRB and I both found our eyes drawn to the bolder, lazier, more fluid light play of the old cut with the shorter LGFs. The dispersion/colored light play across the diamond face is also really exaggerated bc of the big pavilion mains.



In terms of MRBs, I definitely have a preference for very small table and shorter LGF now that I have seen what that kind of combo can do, especially in low light conditions or in conditions where dispersion (colored light play) is possible - like under a tree or where lighting is otherwise diffuse.

 

[autumngems]

Wink,

I thank you for your statement.

I guess, I myself, am still confused. If fluorescence is an issue and CBI/HPD doesn't want to offer that due to pricing and current thoughts on flour in the industry, I don't understand why that stone was even cut by CBI to begin with (even for regular distribution) let alone, and still have all the policies in effect. People see a stone online with flour in the regular distribution and expect that they will be able to get their stone, with flour and all the policies as well.

I am sure it all makes sense to someone, but not to me, a person whom is looking to get the same deal
that someone buying a regular distribution stone that has flour gets when it's stated lifetime upgrades, no limitations.

I am not arguing, just stating a fact for me.

Thank you all, for your time and posts.

 

[WinkHPD]

@autumngems, you are welcome. I completely understand your question. I will gladly try to help you understand.

If fluorescence is an issue and CBI/HPD doesn't want to offer that due to pricing and current thoughts on flour in the industry, I don't understand why that stone was even cut by CBI to begin with (even for regular distribution)

You must remember that CBI is selecting their own raw material before it’s graded. Some slightly fluorescent crystals will be ok since neither the beauty, nor the value proposition is impacted. Anything less then perfect transparency is rejected. That is the priority.

Next, did you notice the grading report is from 2015? CBI may well have judged it less than medium, but the lab said medium, and there you go. Around 2015 the pros here can confirm there was a huge fist-shaking ruckus in the trade about inconsistencies in fluorescence grading, strength of UV, types of lamps, problems with tubes produced overseas, etc. As I said, it’s a volatile area.

Crafted by Infinity have performed far more consistently in such judgments than any laboratory over the years. But, in the end, what the paper says is how it gets sold.

I am sure it all makes sense to someone, but not to me, a person whom is looking to get the same deal that someone buying a regular distribution stone that has flour gets when it's stated lifetime upgrades, no limitations.

I am not arguing, just stating a fact for me.

I understand completely. I regret seeing such a diamond in the regular production is disappointing. The alternative would be to banish that diamond, based on paper only. That would have been a shame so I am glad they did not sell it out the back door.

 

[coda72]

If you want a diamond with fluorescence and all of the upgrade options, you might have to wait for a BG Blue. The larger ones don’t come along that often, but when they do, be ready to jump on one.

 

[coda72]

Also, not sure what your budget is, but here’s a K colored stone from BG without fluorescence.

https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/.../3.103-k-vs1-round-diamond-ags-c-104103554033

 

[sledge]

Also, not sure what your budget is, but here’s a K colored stone from BG without fluorescence.

https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/.../3.103-k-vs1-round-diamond-ags-c-104103554033

My thoughts earlier were to reach out to BGD as well. They already have a BGD Blue line where they specialize in medium+ fluor stones. Granted the upgrade & buyback policy isn't as awesome as WF/HPD but it's still very good. Worth a call to Lesley and Brian IMO.

Also, that particular 3.01 K VS1 you found is a BGD Black stone. What makes this unique is that Black is limited to D-G colors on stones < 2.9 carats. At 3 carats and above, they occasionally include lower colors.

So getting Brian's best cut in a K color is fairly unique. If in budget, might be worth an inquiry for sure.

https://black.briangavindiamonds.com/about-us