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The Surge and Beyond

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AGBF

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Many of us in the United States got to watch our President announce this week that, contrary to the wishes of almost everyone in the world, he would be sending more members of the US military into Iraq. (Yes, I know the Iraqis are among those who didn''t want more of our troops, but so were the US commanders and the Iraq Study Group.)

Now Secretary of State Rice mentioned that we have been doing a little behind the scenes action against Iran in Iraq. I am wondering if President Bush is planning to escalate this "surge" in Iraq into an...well, president Nixon called it an "incursion" into Cambodia...an incursion into Iran.

He wouldn''t be that rash would he?

A Little Covert Action Againt Iranians in Iraq Never Hurt Anyone

Deborah
 

strmrdr

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The fighting in Iraq in 2 areas has mostly been against Iranians or backed by them.
Its nothing new.
The US troops not being allowed by Turkey to launch in and seal that border is costing us.
Since then we havent even tried to do so and that was a huge mistake.
Mainly because for polical reasons Bush halted the ground war before it got done.
At this point its like closing the barn door after the wolves are inside but it should be done.
 

AGBF

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Date: 1/13/2007 6:58:52 PM
Author: strmrdr
The fighting in Iraq in 2 areas has mostly been against Iranians or backed by them.
Weren''t we supposed to go in to get rid of Saddam Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction, Storm? The weapons of mass destruction weren''t there are Saddam Hussein is dead. Why do you accept the fact we have supposedly been fighting Iranians? I never agreed to fight Iranians! Neither did Congress!

Deborah
 

strmrdr

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Date: 1/13/2007 7:06:44 PM
Author: AGBF




Date: 1/13/2007 6:58:52 PM
Author: strmrdr
The fighting in Iraq in 2 areas has mostly been against Iranians or backed by them.
Weren''t we supposed to go in to get rid of Saddam Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction, Storm? The weapons of mass destruction weren''t there are Saddam Hussein is dead. Why do you accept the fact we have supposedly been fighting Iranians? I never agreed to fight Iranians! Neither did Congress!

Deborah
They came in and attacked our troops and backed the groups attacking our troops.
That''s a cold hard proven fact.
Now proving that its an official government act that''s another fish but they are definitely from there and have a base there.
Are the private groups or Iran goverment backed? dunno hasnt been proven one way or the other and I expect that if the goverment is backing them its very very very well hidden.
They certainly havent done anything to stop them.
 

poptart

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I was wondering if someone was going to start a thread like this. I was so mad watching Bush that I started shaking. Stupidity at this level just vexes me beyond reason. I'm hoping Congress can pull some funding strings in order to keep things under control, but it's not looking that way right now. Sigh... I just hate seeing families being put through so much turmoil for what seems like a lost cause.

*M*

ETA: I was also worrying about ImpatientOne because I remember her saying her FI is supposed to be going for his tour this year. It all makes me so nervous!
 

movie zombie

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Iran has a vested interest in Iraq as there is a shared border. in their eyes they are acting in their best interest against an agressive rogue nation that has already invaded their neighbor. the US sends the CIA and other groups into distrupt other countries all the time......but becomes upset when another nation does it. i invite you to revisit the movie THE QUIET AMERICAN with michael caine. yes, it is just a movie but it certainly chronicals our early iinvolvement in vietnam. and while we''re talking about the similarities, let''s not forget that 30 years after our departure we have recently signed trade agreements with that nation.

given our problems in afganistan, africa, iraq, etc. and our plans to invade cuba once fidel is gone and not to mention our ongoing troops in the phillipines and columbia which doesn''t even begin to address the issue of our involvement in venezuela and attempt to overthrow once again a democratically elected president, i believe it is indeed time to reinstate the draft.

iraq was about wmd and those were never found. then it was to depose the country''s leader which is now done. the reason we''re went there in the first place continues to change. we''ve created a mess and are going to make that mess even worse. i have no doubt this administration will take us into iran. it is up to this congress to understand and realize that the authorization to fight terror did not include becoming involved in a civil war and expanding terror ourselves.

movie zombie
 

AGBF

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Date: 1/14/2007 2:28:17 PM
Author: movie zombie
i have no doubt this administration will take us into iran.
With or without the consent of Congress?

Deb
 

movie zombie

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without.

bush sees himself as having rec''d total permission from congress after 9/11 to do anything anything he wants whether that be military or civil rights. congress will not be asked permission to fire off shots at iran. however, congress may view this as an actual war rather than an action against terrorism. also, we won''t fire the first shot: we will manipulate the situation so that iran will appear to be the agressor: air space violations are actually grounds for self-defense but most american''s don''t know that. some such situation will be manipulated and the american public will be let to believe that iran fired the first shot. another american warship has been sent to the area. invasion of sea space also qualifies as grounds for self-defense. the only reason this latest ship has been sent is to be in place against iran....or perhaps breech sea space? we''ll see. but whatever the iranians see as self-defense we will call it agression.

movie zombie
 

AGBF

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Date: 1/14/2007 4:47:42 PM
Author: movie zombie
congress will not be asked permission to fire off shots at iran. however, congress may view this as an actual war rather than an action against terrorism. also, we won''t fire the first shot: we will manipulate the situation so that iran will appear to be the agressor: air space violations are actually grounds for self-defense but most american''s don''t know that. some such situation will be manipulated and the american public will be let to believe that iran fired the first shot. another american warship has been sent to the area. invasion of sea space also qualifies as grounds for self-defense. the only reason this latest ship has been sent is to be in place against iran....or perhaps breech sea space? we''ll see. but whatever the iranians see as self-defense we will call it agression.
I hope you are wrong, but I have come to regard your political judgment with enormous respect. If this scenario enfolds, we will know that it was engineered by the United States. I wish Congress were reading Pricescope; they are the only hope of reining in this President, and I do not know if even they can do it. They admit that their constitutional powers are quite limited right now vis a vis Iraq.


Deb
 

poptart

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Date: 1/14/2007 2:28:17 PM
Author: movie zombie
Iran has a vested interest in Iraq as there is a shared border. in their eyes they are acting in their best interest against an agressive rogue nation that has already invaded their neighbor. the US sends the CIA and other groups into distrupt other countries all the time......but becomes upset when another nation does it. i invite you to revisit the movie THE QUIET AMERICAN with michael caine. yes, it is just a movie but it certainly chronicals our early iinvolvement in vietnam. and while we''re talking about the similarities, let''s not forget that 30 years after our departure we have recently signed trade agreements with that nation.

given our problems in afganistan, africa, iraq, etc. and our plans to invade cuba once fidel is gone and not to mention our ongoing troops in the phillipines and columbia which doesn''t even begin to address the issue of our involvement in venezuela and attempt to overthrow once again a democratically elected president, i believe it is indeed time to reinstate the draft.

iraq was about wmd and those were never found. then it was to depose the country''s leader which is now done. the reason we''re went there in the first place continues to change. we''ve created a mess and are going to make that mess even worse. i have no doubt this administration will take us into iran. it is up to this congress to understand and realize that the authorization to fight terror did not include becoming involved in a civil war and expanding terror ourselves.

movie zombie
Can you please explain this part again? I read it three times and I still don''t understand.

*M*
 

movie zombie

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we don''t have the troop strength for our present committments and this latest surge......much less for a real emergency here at home or abroad. adding and/or extending duty tours is taking its toll on existing troops.....not to mention depleting the national guard from each state which means we don''t have emergency personnel here when/where we need it. the talk is of mercenaries of which we are already utiizing and more illegals given instant citizenship upon enlisting. however, the loyalty of such troops in the long run remains unknown....unless one takes a lesson from the romans and the fall of their empire. the only logical solution is to reinstate the draft to support the wars, police actions, and advisory positions we have taken upon ourselves around the world. resistance to the draft comes from the services themselves: the people in higher command came through vietnam and remember having to be armed to defend themselves from their own troops and in no way want to go through that again.

movie zombie
 

poptart

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Date: 1/15/2007 12:19:15 AM
Author: movie zombie
we don''t have the troop strength for our present committments and this latest surge......much less for a real emergency here at home or abroad. adding and/or extending duty tours is taking its toll on existing troops.....not to mention depleting the national guard from each state which means we don''t have emergency personnel here when/where we need it. the talk is of mercenaries of which we are already utiizing and more illegals given instant citizenship upon enlisting. however, the loyalty of such troops in the long run remains unknown....unless one takes a lesson from the romans and the fall of their empire. the only logical solution is to reinstate the draft to support the wars, police actions, and advisory positions we have taken upon ourselves around the world. resistance to the draft comes from the services themselves: the people in higher command came through vietnam and remember having to be armed to defend themselves from their own troops and in no way want to go through that again.

movie zombie
Thank you. That''s what I thought you meant, but wasn''t sure.

*M*
 

movie zombie

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no sign of it on the news that i get via the internet but it is reported in australia that the first troops to implement the new bush plan in iraq have arrived:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200701/s1827415.htm

''First US troops arrive in Baghdad for new plan
The US commander in Iraq General George Casey says the first additional American troops who will take part in the new security plan in Baghdad have arrived in the Iraqi capital.'' He declined to give more details or say when operations would start but he says a report that 4,000 of the planned 17,500 extra troops had arrived was "real high". ''

it appears that mr bush had made up his mind at least a month before his speech outlining his new plan and had already ordered the deployment of the first of the surge troops. it takes advance planning to deploy troops. congress has not funded for this deployment nor for the rest of the surge troops. it is a great manuever on the part of the administration: not to fund this 4000 troop deployment will be argued as not supporting the troops. BUT the arguement that to deploy troops without funding is not supporting the troops will be lost in the discussions. congress has been outflanked.

movie zombie
 

poptart

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I also read in the Washington Times that Sen. Murtha is proposing a bill to limit funding for the deployment of troops. I don''t think it will work though because it will take so long for the bill to pass and Bush can get a LOT of troops in between now and then. The one thing I don''t understand at this point is what Bush stands to gain from this. The reasons for us being there have changed several times over the course of the few years we have been there. Now it seems like he is only trying to redeem himself, and I don''t understand how this is going to help him save face. Clearly, I am no good at politics, haha.

*M*
 

movie zombie

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for more reading about why the draft is necessary read:

http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?emx=x&pid=157241

talk of cutting funds for future draft deployment has not stopped troop deployment. congress abdicated its war responsibilities to this administration....and every administration [democrat an republican alike] after will use it as precedent. the only way this congress will be able to take back its authority is through loop holes such as they didn''t authorize involvement in civil war. however, where there is a will there is a way: lack of funds only led the nixon administration to iran-contra to fund their illegal military actions. another reality is the civilian and US troop deaths and injuries as well as the fact this war is being fought on borrowed dollars from china and other countries which will have to be paid back by future generations.

movie zombie
 

strmrdr

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backing out now will be the biggest mistake to make.
It is too late for that.
We should have invaded Iran in the first place not Iraq.
The problem with Iran is either we invade or Israel is going too.
They will not tolerate the nuclear bomb making factories to survive.
If Israel does invade the whole region is going up.
 

fire&ice

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We are really exposing ourselves & our bases in all other parts of the world. They are already operating on skeleton crews. The draft may be the only way to protect our interests elsewhere.


"The Futue looks bright...............January 20, 2009."
Saw that on a bumper sticker today.

You know the world''s gone topsy turvy when I''m starting to think Pat Buchanan makes sense.
 

poptart

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How do you all think the country would respond to another draft? I am inclined to think that it would instigate more problems, as this war is already being referred to as another Vietnam.

*M*
 

fire&ice

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Date: 1/15/2007 4:32:11 PM
Author: poptart
How do you all think the country would respond to another draft? I am inclined to think that it would instigate more problems, as this war is already being referred to as another Vietnam.

*M*
I don''t know. Quite a bit of time has passed since the draft. I''m not sure it will be viewed with horror. My DOB & hubby''s DOB year are the only ones who never had to register. Everyone else is already "registered". On the one hand, I think it''s our civic duty. Not necessarily to be part of a war which - perhaps - one doesn''t believe. But, there are tons of other "jobs" in the military. I''ve been a big believer in giving a year to your country (be it in any capacity). But, admittedly, a logistics nightmare at this point w/ our population.

I really don''t know. It''s an interesting question. But, I really don''t think it will come to that b/c of ego if anything.
 

poptart

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I''m just curious because, since I am a younger American (20 years old), I like to think that I am somewhat informed (although I could be better) about what happened with Vietnam in comparison with what''s going on now. The thing is, a lot of people my age know more about this war (and Vietnam) than those in power would like to think. From what I''ve read, I honestly think the government would be too afraid to reinstate the draft. I agree that giving a year to the government for your country could be beneficial for everyone, but drafting people would seem to me to be disastrous. Everyone would be crying "conscientious objector". I guess my problem stems from the fact that not only do I not believe in the war, but I am very afraid and resentful toward the military. I''ve mentioned before that my DH is in the Navy, and it''s been horrible for the both of us. And from what I''ve heard from friends, the Army can be even worse. And I think the problem is that now with the internet and information being so freely available, people know more of what actually goes on in the military. I just wonder how people would react to being drafted and I don''t think it would be pretty!

*M*
 

AGBF

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Date: 1/15/2007 4:04:06 PM
Author: strmrdr
We should have invaded Iran in the first place not Iraq.
I thought we were after weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein? Are we going to invade everybody? I wish Phil Ochs were still alive. He sang, "We're the cops of the world, boys, we're the cops of the world.". I thought that that was a role you deplored for the United States, Storm!

Deb
 

AGBF

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Date: 1/15/2007 3:23:13 PM
Author: movie zombie
lack of funds only led the nixon administration to iran-contra to fund their illegal military actions.
It only felt like the Nixon administration again ;-).

Deb
 

movie zombie

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the administration has already outflanked the congress. remember it was january 16 yesterday in australia and this is what was in the news there yesterday:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200701/s1827415.htm

i have not seen it reported here.

it takes more than one week to deploy 4000 soldiers.....so that''s what he was doing in december as he prepared the speech saying what he was going to do while he had already done it.

congress will vote the funds to support these troops. the administration will again send more troops forcing once again congress to vote to support those troops also.

movie zombie
 

poptart

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I was also under the impression that the troops he is sending over are people that were already scheduled to go this year, and Bush is just pushing up their deployment date as well as extending the tour of troops that are already over there. Is this true? Sometimes the news is so misleading...

*M*
 

strmrdr

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Date: 1/15/2007 5:43:06 PM
Author: AGBF



Date: 1/15/2007 4:04:06 PM
Author: strmrdr
We should have invaded Iran in the first place not Iraq.
I thought we were after weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein? Are we going to invade everybody? I wish Phil Ochs were still alive. He sang, ''We''re the cops of the world, boys, we''re the cops of the world.''. I thought that that was a role you deplored for the United States, Storm!

Deb
yea I hate it but its got to the point now where there arent a whole lot of options other than let the entire region go up in war.
Which might not really be a bad thing let em kill each other if they want.
But I dont really want to pay $10 for a gallon of gas either,,,,,,
 

IrishAngel7982

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We have to be very careful with these topics but all I can say is I didn''t vote for Bush back in 2000, and I certainly didn''t vote for him back in 2004, and I can''t wait for 2008 so we can have a new president who does things for the right reasons.

Maybe I''m also naive but I don''t quite understand why withdrawing now is such a big mistake. I don''t see any progress...I see countless American soldiers dying every day, more being sent over for three and four tours of duty, all with no end in sight.
 

movie zombie

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Date: 1/16/2007 3:48:27 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 1/15/2007 5:43:06 PM
Author: AGBF




Date: 1/15/2007 4:04:06 PM
Author: strmrdr
We should have invaded Iran in the first place not Iraq.
I thought we were after weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein? Are we going to invade everybody? I wish Phil Ochs were still alive. He sang, ''We''re the cops of the world, boys, we''re the cops of the world.''. I thought that that was a role you deplored for the United States, Storm!

Deb
yea I hate it but its got to the point now where there arent a whole lot of options other than let the entire region go up in war.
Which might not really be a bad thing let em kill each other if they want.
But I dont really want to pay $10 for a gallon of gas either,,,,,,
heavy sigh......the UN has reported almost 35,000 civilian iraqi dead in the past year alone. not to mention our over 3000 US troops dead. then add the hundreds of billions of borrowed dollars to finance the war for which we[and future generations] will be presented the bill in our taxes or in further reduction of government services. that''s a great price being paid for us not having to pay $10/gallon of gas.....or better stated we''re already paying way more than $10/gallon. indeed, it is time to reinstate the draft and share the price of that gallon of gas across the population.

i''ve been thinking of the article for which i posted the link above and the sci-fi novel STARSHIP TROOPERS in which the only people able to vote or run for office must have actively served with boots on the ground so to speak in order vote and/or run for office.

i''m also thinking that another sci-fi novel could be written in which the premise is that only those that have served with boots on the ground in the armed services are allowed to drive. if anyone is a budding writer and interested, i have more ideas regarding this and would be willing to share them....i''m listed in the phone book.


movie zombie
 

Officers girl

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On the draft note I pray it doesnt come back!! My Fiancee has done three tours to the middle east and the lack of training and appropriate gear given to the soldiers is astonishing!! Adding more people with less training will just be a whole nother mess that would bother most military families as I wouldnt want my soldier backed by someone forced to be there.
 

poptart

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Date: 1/17/2007 12:04:28 AM
Author: Officers girl
On the draft note I pray it doesnt come back!! My Fiancee has done three tours to the middle east and the lack of training and appropriate gear given to the soldiers is astonishing!! Adding more people with less training will just be a whole nother mess that would bother most military families as I wouldnt want my soldier backed by someone forced to be there.
Eeek! Three tours, that has to be horrible. I agree with what you said, too. If the draft came back I think it would be really unsafe for everyone because the majority of those drafted would not want to be there and would be looking for just about any way to get out (I know I would). That being said, it just makes me wonder why, once you sign that military contract, is it SO hard (read impossible) to get OUT of the military until your time is up? People seem to think that if you sign, it means you want to be there, when really that isn''t always the case. It would seem that the military would be concerned with keep troops happy as well, because happy troops do better work.

*M*
 

Officers girl

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Date: 1/17/2007 12:26:55 AM
Author: poptart

Date: 1/17/2007 12:04:28 AM
Author: Officers girl
On the draft note I pray it doesnt come back!! My Fiancee has done three tours to the middle east and the lack of training and appropriate gear given to the soldiers is astonishing!! Adding more people with less training will just be a whole nother mess that would bother most military families as I wouldnt want my soldier backed by someone forced to be there.
Eeek! Three tours, that has to be horrible. I agree with what you said, too. If the draft came back I think it would be really unsafe for everyone because the majority of those drafted would not want to be there and would be looking for just about any way to get out (I know I would). That being said, it just makes me wonder why, once you sign that military contract, is it SO hard (read impossible) to get OUT of the military until your time is up? People seem to think that if you sign, it means you want to be there, when really that isn''t always the case. It would seem that the military would be concerned with keep troops happy as well, because happy troops do better work.

*M*
There are actually lots of ways to get out only they all involve a dishonorable discharge. We have seen people do drugs, rape and one assault someone into a coma just to make sure they didnt have to go to iraq. The 101st airborne (We are at Ft. Campbell) Are gearing back up to deploy and you are already starting to see this happening. I realize the military will never start allowing people out of there contracts because retention is already low enough. I only wish that people would really weight the decision to join.
 
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