The Sleepless Toddler Thread

[Demelza]

I thought I''d start this thread for anyone out there who has (or had) toddlers who just wouldn''t sleep. My daughter is 22 months and has never slept through the night....EVER! If I''m lucky, she''ll do one 4-5 hour stretch, but the rest of the night is usually dreadful. For the first year or so, she co-slept and nursed all night. I was hoping she would eventually begin to sleep more soundly on her own without much intervention. By the time she was 15 months, however, things were getting worse and I''d had it. Since then, we''ve tried a variety of sleep training methods and spent an absurd amount of money on sleep consultants with little to no improvement. I''m trying to accept that she will sleep through the night when she''s ready (apparently I didn''t sleep through the night until I was 4 -- my mom claims this is payback!), but, after nearly 2 years, it''s hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Other than being very petite for her age, she''s a very healthy, very bright little girl and we love her more than anything on this earth. I just wish she''d sleep! I can''t imagine how our lives would be different if this were no longer an issue.

Anyone else out there with a similar situation? How''d you get through it? Did you give up trying different techniques and just accept that your kid isn''t a good sleeper? I sometimes wonder if she would start sleeping better if we stopped obsessing about it. Anyway, I''d love to hear your stories!

 

[MichelleCarmen]

What does your daughter do after she wakes up? Does she sit in her room alone or go into be w/you? Both my kids use to wake up in the middle of the night and would climb into bed with us. After they'd fall back asleep, DH and/or I would carry them both back to bed.

Our situation was a bit more tricky in that we co-slept with TWO kids for a few years there, so my older son ended up sleeping in bed with us for longer than two years and we had a larger battle to deal with in getting them to sleep through the night on their own (the two boys even ended up sharing their own bed w/each other for a while - around the ages of 1 1/2 & 3 1/2 - something like that).

I hope someone can give you some good advice. Getting things "just right" is impossible when it comes to kids since the family dynamics for each of us are all so different. . . but all advice helps, to some extent.

 

[Demelza]

Thanks for your response, MC.

My daughter is currently sleeping in bed with us. There have been times when she''s slept in her own room in a crib, but that worked even less well. She wakes up a ton regardless. It used to be that she would fall right back to sleep once I nursed her, but that is no longer the case. She''s mostly night weaned anyway. I just don''t get it. My sense is that the only thing that would eventually work would be to put her in her crib at night, close the door, and leave her in there until the morning. That said, it might take a very long time and I''m concerned about the psychological implications of doing something so extreme. She''s the kind of kid who would (and has) screamed her head off for hours. Even though we tried it in a moment of desperation, I have never been a fan of CIO. I know it can work very well and very quickly for some kids, but, for others, I think it can make things worse. At least that was our experience. I''m just so sick of this. I wish I could find some way to be okay with it until she figures it out on her own, but that''s not an easy thing at 3 am.

 

[AGSHF]

Demelza,

I won''t go into detail about our experience with our daughter when she was a toddler, but it was somewhat similar.

Background: She''s our only child, I stayed at home with her and we adore her (still do). We loved spending time with her; she delighted us, but when it came time for bed, we thought, why can''t we just pick her up and put her to bed in another room and we can have our alone time. It really didn''t work that way, at least not for us and, clearly, not for her. So, it was difficult to "separate" from her even if we wanted her to sleep on her own and allow us a peaceful night.

At your daughter''s age, our daughter was no longer nursing and was a pro at sleeping through the night, BUT, she wanted to be with us. It had started some months before when she had a bout of illness and, out of concern, we couldn''t bear for her to CIO, so we brought her to bed with us for a few nights. She liked it so much (and, to be honest, so did we) that it was hard to get her back on her own. It stayed that way for many, many months.

As I see it, there are at least a couple mini-steps before she can "move" out:

(1) Your daughter wakes in the middle of the night -- she should be able to self soothe by now and return to sleep. I would eliminate the night nursing as Step One because until that ends, everything else is nearly impossible. You may have to experiment with another soothing technique, rubbing her back or giving her a lovey, etc. to get her back to sleep. This may be rough in the beginning, but unless you are ready to wean completely overnight, then she''ll continue to rely on this.

(2) Consider whether she is waking in the middle of the night because she''s sharing your bed? Even in a King sized bed, there is less room than you think if there is a squirmy toddler between you. Perhaps you can make a small "bed" for her in your room -- whether it''s her toddler bed or a small futon or something, if you can just get her used to separating by degrees, then it''s a step in the right direction. Perhaps you can make a game out of it: here''s your pretty, special bed; you''ll sleep on it for all daytime naps, every Monday, every other night, every night...whatever makes it exciting for her. Keep the bedtime routine consistent: wash up, brush teeth, read books, then to "bed." She may take to it more willingly than you think. As long as you''re still close by, then it''ll be less truamatic and much more acceptable to her.

Considering that she''s been used to being so close to you at night, it might take incremental steps. Just try to as firm and consistent as possible. They will sense it if you are wavering or not ready yourself to separate (except when you''re at your wit''s end from sleep deprivation). Also, you and DH have to be in agreement, as well, regarding what step(s) you are taking.

Baby and toddler sleeping is fraught with emotion and people have many different opinions and may be judgmental if their situations are different, so you have to do what you are most comfortable doing. It may take very small steps and small victories. But, I really believe that you can''t go from having your child sleeping in your bosom every night to sleeping soundly in her own bed in her own room overnight. She mayl surprise you, but I wouldn''t be surprised if neither she nor you can do thay. At the least, she''ll be confused as to why you''re suddenly evicting her.

So, try to sort it out one (small) step at a time and make sure that you and DH present a solid front. Be clear and be firm, and shower your love in other ways. At 22 months old and being a bright child, she''ll take your lead.

I hope this helps to give you some ideas.

 

[TravelingGal]

AGHSF, great advice!

I am sorry to hear you are having some frustrations with the current situation. I don't have any advice since I only have a 5 month old. However, I hope you don't mind if I lurk on your thread for advice, as I have 2 friends currently going through the same thing you are. 1 child is 27 months, the other, 3.5 years old. Both are having sleeping, and both are not out of the parent's bed yet. I do wonder if co-sleeping starts this whole process, but others have plenty of success moving children to their own room - or do not mind cosleeping as long as needed.

I hope you get some advice that works for you! A well rested family is so important for happiness...and sanity!!

 

[mrssalvo]

I second tgal''s comment about AGSHF''s advice. I used to let my kids sleep in our beds from time to time and still do. But, I always start them in their own beds. If one of them woke up in the middle of the night I would let her come to bed with us. When I was pregnant with Jake I couldn''t handle my girls sleeping with me, heck I didn''t really even want my hubby there

. So, if one woke up, I''d get up and walk her back to her bed. Sometime''s I would lay down with them in their beds other times I kissed them and went back to my bed. eventually they stopped coming in b/c they knew I''d was just going to take them back to their own bed...no payoff. I would at least start her off in her own bed at night and completely weaning the night nursing. You do have to be ready though because it will be more work for you at first b/c you''ll have to find other ways to comfort her at night. my oldest was my worst sleeper so i can empathize with the lack of sleep desperation.

 

[purrfectpear]

I''m a firm believer in CIO and I don''t for a minute think any of us whose parents used that technique on us were "traumatized". When was the last time you heard an adult say "boy I was really traumatized as a 2 year old. My parents made me stay in my room and I cried"?

I can tell though that as parents YOU would be traumatized even though your kids wouldn''t remember a thing. So obviously that won''t work.

I suppose an ounce of whisky in the sippy cup is out of the question

 

[Demelza]

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful replies.

AGSHF -- I really appreciate your perspective and I think your suggestions are very good. I do know that completely night weaning (she currently only nurses in the early morning hours) is the first step. Frankly, we've done it before, but, at the time, it actually made things worse. Without the early morning nursing session, she seems unable to put herself back to sleep and wakes up at 5 am instead of 7 am. That said, now that she's older, I really do think eliminating nursing from the nighttime equation is going to be important.

Tgal -- I too wonder about how co-sleeping impacts sleep habits later on. Do non-co-sleeping babies sleep through the night at a younger age than their co-sleeping counterparts? If so, what implications (if any) does this have for sleep habits later on? I don't regret sharing a bed with my daughter as co-sleeping has always made intuitive sense to me and I wouldn't at all mind continuing to sleep with her if she actually slept. That's really the problem -- she doesn't sleep well whether she's in her crib or in bed with me. I just don't get it!

MrsSalvo -- I know you've mentioned that your oldest daughter was never a good sleeper. I'm curious how you would describe her temperament and how it compares to your younger daughter?

Purrfectpear -- We tried CIO with our daughter when she was about 18 months old with disappointing results. Some children tolerate the experience very well, but our daughter wasn't one of them. While I certainly wouldn't say she was scarred for life by the process, I would say that she was indeed temporarily "traumatized". For weeks afterwards, she couldn't even look at a picture of a sleeping baby without starting to cry. I don't think the fact that adults don't remember their experience of being left to cry means that it's an insignificant experience. Children have all kinds of pre-verbal experiences (including actual abuse) that they won't remember as adults, but that doesn't mean they don't play an important role in shaping who they are.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 9/16/2008 10:54:25 AM
Author: Demelza
Tgal -- I too wonder about how co-sleeping impacts sleep habits later on. Do non-co-sleeping babies sleep through the night at a younger age than their co-sleeping counterparts? If so, what implications (if any) does this have for sleep habits later on? I don''t regret sharing a bed with my daughter as co-sleeping has always made intuitive sense to me and I wouldn''t at all mind continuing to sleep with her if she actually slept. That''s really the problem -- she doesn''t sleep well whether she''s in her crib or in bed with me. I just don''t get it!

Ha Demelza, if I could answer that question, I''d be rich from writing a sleep training book which was universally true - which we know none of them are! Even kids raised in the same household are different style sleepers because babies are just different!

The best I could answer is just hypothesizing from what I see around me...which is only my group of friends. My friends have kids right now ages 11 months - 7 years. From that group:

3 co-sleep in the same bed (to distinguish sleeping in the same room but in different beds).
2 were "trained" early on to sleep in their crib with early bedtimes and CIO
1 was in his crib early on but was picked up when he cried, rocked, and put down immediately when he stopped crying. The mom used this over and over.
1 was in his crib early on, rocked to sleep, still can''t self soothe and is taken from his crib when me makes a noise
1 slept in the carseat for 6 months in the same room, then moved to crib.

Out of the group, the best sleepers are the two who were trained early on with CIO AND the one who was still in his crib, but trained with non CIO methods. Those kids are now 3, 4.5 and 7 years. All have bedtimes between 7-8, and all have had no sleep problems.

ALL of the babies who were in their crib by 6 months, regardless of where they started, seem to sleep better, although there are frustrations GETTING them to fall asleep. Once asleep, they''re out for at least 8 hours.

As for the cosleepers, I suspect one is a terrible sleeper partially because there was no consistency in bedtime (2 year old allowed to stay up until 1 am). The other cannot fall asleep without his mother by his side (and she is an insomniac). The last one is nearly two years old and can fall asleep no problem but wakes up every few hours during the night and looks for his mother (she sleeps in his room on a large mattress with him).

Since I can only go by my experience, I decided that I had the best shot I had at decent sleep for the whole family was to have a plan of action and start early. So far it has been great and Amelia is a solid sleeper, and I have not ever had to use CIO. She was in a bassinet with me in the living room (where I slept) until 5 weeks and was moved to her crib then. She had a 7pm bedtime by 8 weeks with only one night waking at 2 am for a feeding (this varied though). At 13 weeks, we tried to see if she would be fine without the middle of the night feed (per her ped''s suggestion) and she was fine. We haven''t given her that feeding since and she sleeps from 7 to 7. I should note that my daughter is formula fed (because I think it makes some sort of difference).

I also believe sleep patterns change as babies grow - my goal is to learn to manage each stage and focus on good sleep solutions.

I will also admit I am blessed to have a child that seems very adaptable.

Hope you find this at least interesting.

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 9/16/2008 10:54:25 AM
Author: Demelza


MrsSalvo -- I know you''ve mentioned that your oldest daughter was never a good sleeper. I''m curious how you would describe her temperament and how it compares to your younger daughter?

Dem-- my oldest is very structured and thrives with a set schedule. She is also very loving and rarely tries to cross a line. She follows rules and never gets into trouble at school for any reason, even simple things like being noisy. She is also somewhat shy until she really gets to know you. She just never was a good sleeper and would wake up at least once a night. I don''t know why, i just had to deal with it and it would be so frustrating because he baby sister was sleeping though the night long before she did.

Now Lily has a totally different personality. She''s very outgoing and doesn''t have a shy bone in her body. She has always been an easy sleeper. She also had to be more of a go with the flow baby b/c I also had to take care of her 2 year old big sister and I see that evidenced in her very go with the flow attitude towards life.

I''m dealing with Jake having sleep issues right now too. he was up 5-6 times last night. he just randomly wakes up and I know he''s not hungry. I''m hoping it will correct itself on it''s own b/c although I know CIO can be effective it seriously breaks my heart to do it. But, if in a few weeks he''s not doing better, I will give it a go. I did just move him to his own room a short while ago too.

 

[AGSHF]

Demelza,

To help eliminate any need for night nursing, you need to try to make sure that DD''s not waking up "hungry." Of course, she''s at the age where she doesn''t need overnight feeding for nourishment, but she may still be feeling wakeful from an "empty" stomach as much as she''s needing comfort.

Does she get a little "snack" close to or before bedtime? Once she weaned (around 22 months actually) I switched my daughter to milk and she would get a night "moo-moo juice" from her straw sippy cup. She started asking for it. I think she was used to the comforting full tummy. She didn''t get warm milk, just milk straight from the fridge, but you might consider the sleep-inducing benefits of warm milk and introduce that to your daughter before bedtime, followed by brushing, etc. And, even if she were to pass out some nights w/o brushing after having her milk, it wouldn''t be the end of the world because milk drank through a straw shouldn''t sit long on her baby teeth. I did make sure that she brushed her teeth at least before having that last milk. Then, we would do the book reading, etc. while she was having her milk.

Just another thought, do you make sure that your daughter is "calm" for a period before bedtime? A darkened quiet room, reading bedtime stories, lullabies on the CD player all help. When my daughter (A) was small, she would get very excited whenever DH got home, especially when DH was late getting home from work and A hadn''t seen him all the long day. Then, of course, DH would want to spend time with A and "play." It would drive me crazy and I''d say, "don''t start the madness." One day, A surprised us both and said, "Daddy, don''t start the mat-ness." We just died laughing and, of course, the madness got worse that night. But, I think you get the idea.

Does your daughter nap during the day? At her age, she likely still needs one but not one that''s too long that it interferes with her need for night sleep. A took a 2-hour nap in the afternoon until she started full day school and, while it cramped our availability in the afternoon for activities, she needed it because she was "busy" the rest of the day. On most days, I enjoyed the break.

It''s so important for toddlers to get a full night''s sleep and be rested. It won''t be that long before preschool looms on the horizon and she''ll need to get a restful night''s sleep so that she can do and absorb all the good stuff during the day.

 

[snowflakeluvr]

hi demelza,
just wanted to say that i share your pain! dh and i have NOT learned a thing as we have five kids, ages almost 3 to 20 and the first was/is our best sleeper...it''s been downhill since! i have never been able to let my children CIO and with the last two(2and 4yr old) we were "old" parents, over 40, and i nursed on demand, soooo we are royally scr*wed!!!
we just moved 4 weeks ago to another state and to a much larger home. the oldest two are now away at universities so we told the two littlest that they now have their own rooms/beds... i keep plenty of nightlites on, because our master is on the first floor and kids rooms on 2nd floor but that does not deter them from finding us! our 4yr old is asleep right now with daddy and little miss motormouth is going strong at 10:30pm! we had college/high school kids when these two were babies so they were dragged along to all sporting events, etc so their schedule was often disheveled.
i hate not getting sleep because it''s been over 20 years of this, and man i''m tired! i hope your little doll figures it out...last night, our two wee ones slept together in gemma''s bed and woke up after 7am, so i felt pretty good today! other nights i''m up 2 times with him or her...
i have begun going to bed earlier, i have always, always been a nightowl so i am trying to get much needed rest...
good luck to you! being exhausted (to me) is the absolute hardest and worst part of mommyhood! i am grateful to be a sahm and able to spend winter days in jammies if need be

ps i do think i have had something to do with "making" them bad sleepers-every little sigh, sound, whimper, i responded...being a nursing mum is just different too...that available comfort(the boobala) is just THERE and they want it, so we give it to them, creates a vicious cycle. my 2nd didn''t sleep thru the night till he was 5-was truly a form of birth control

but our 4th is coming up on five in december and he gets up thru the night...yyaawwwnnn
hope you get some winks tonite!

 

[divergrrl]

Demelza, I have no good advice, my kids are good sleepers, and on the occasion I''ve had to use it, CIO worked quickly for me.

however...my dh is a crappy sleeper. Always has been, I wake up in the middle of the night & he''s out of bed & watching tv in the den, miserable because he can''t sleep. He''s 43, healthy and otherwise happy. So there ya go.

Maybe sleep is just hard for some folks.

I dunno...but at 43 it ceases to be my MILs problem anymore.

 

[swingirl]

I feel for all the parents of sleepless toddlers. I had one that couldn't wait to get under the covers and another that never slept for more than 2 hours at a time. The only thing I can say is the later just got older and eventually slept more. Guess what, he's at college now, texts me at 2 am and makes it to his 7:30 am class every day. Whereas my first born can sleep for 12 hours straight through meals, sunlight, noise, etc.

So there is no advice from this mom. Only empathy.

 

[somethingshiny]

I just thought I''d throw this out there. Sleep apnea can be a cause of not sleeping and sleeping more than you think is normal. If you think that may be a problem, walk into your child''s room (or wherever) a couple hours after they''re asleep and listen for any stopping of breathing noise. Also, listen for lots of snoring.

My son (2.5) has always been a good sleeper and has always slept LOTS (after the colic, anyway). He''s having his tonsils removed on Monday due to sleep apnea (and tonsilitis). He stops breathing for between 15-20 seconds every few minutes. The doctor has told us he will probably sleep less because his sleep will be restful. Apparently, sleep apnea can also cause a child to just NOT sleep because it upsets them so badly when they quit breathing.

As for our son''s sleep schedule/history; He stayed in a bassinet in our room until he was 3 weeks old at which time I moved him to his room in his crib. He was up once or twice a night for feedings until he was right at 3 months old. Since then, he''s always slept through the night unless he was sick/scared/etc. A few times we let him CIO, but I was so upset I literally went outside so I couldn''t hear him.

 

[Demelza]

Tgal -- Out of curiosity, of your friends who co-sleep, do/did they also night nurse? I think breastfeeding is an important part of the sleep equation. I''d also be curious to know how the temperaments of the good sleepers compare to the temperaments of the not-so-good sleepers.

I''m thinking now about my group of friends and the results are all over the map. I have only one friend who did CIO with her son at 6 months -- it took 20 minutes one night and he''s slept through the night ever since. I tend to think he would have been a decent sleeper no matter what she did. Most of my other friends are at least partial co-sleepers and their kids range from being good to not-so-good sleepers. I have the dubious honor of having the worst sleeper out of about 7 moms (although I have a friend with a one year old who''s following very closely in my daughter''s footsteps).

I hope Amelia continues to be a good sleeper for you!

MrsSalvo -- I was curious about your oldest daughter to see if I there were any similarities in temperament to my daughter. I think what you say about the second needing to be more "go with the flow" is very true. My hat is off to you having a newborn and a two year old. I simply can''t imagine that, especially given that your first was a bad sleeper. If we had another baby right now, he/she had better sleep well because we simply couldn''t handle two lousy sleepers needing attention all night. Oy! I hope Jake''s sleeping gets better so you don''t have to do CIO. I know how heartbreaking it is. Good luck!

AGSHF -- It''s hard to know if my daughter is actually hungry when she wakes up in the early morning hours. I know she doesn''t NEED to eat, but I think you''re right that she feels comforted by having a little snack. More than anything, though, I think she just likes the closeness and intimacy of a little "boobie" (as she calls it). We do try to have quiet time before bed and stick very closely to a fairly rigid bedtime routine. We also have a similar routine for her nap. She sleeps for about 90 minutes in the early afternoon. Thanks for all your suggestions. Sounds like you''ve been there done that and it''s good to know you came out the other end.

Snowflakeluvr -- Oh my goodness, I am bowing down to you!!! I''ve been doing this for 2 years and I think I might keel over -- I can''t imagine doing it 5 times over the course of 20 years!! Wow! I agree with you that being a nursing mom who breastfeeds on demand presents its own set of challenges. I honestly didn''t mind nursing her all night through the first year, but I have really begun to resent it as she gets older. I know one thing for sure -- we sure as heck won''t be having another one until this one starts reliably sleeping through the night. I agree with you -- it''s the best birth control out there! You hang in there too.

Divergrrl -- Your post made me laugh. I guess my daughter''s sleeplessness won''t be my problem forever. Seriously, though, I hope she doesn''t become an insomniac. I know how miserable that can be. It''s a good thing for you that your kids didn''t inherit your husband''s sleep issues!

Swingirl -- I have to say, I find it oddly reassuring to hear that you had one good sleeper and one bad one. It makes me feel a bit like it''s just luck of the draw and takes some of the pressure off to "fix" it. Thanks for the sympathy. It really does help to know that others have survived!

Somethingshiny -- Sorry to hear about your son''s sleep apnea and tonsillitis. I hope the surgery goes well! I''ve actually asked the doctor to rule out sleep apnea and any other medical condition that might be causing her to wake so frequently. She shows no signs of sleep apnea -- doesn''t have any stop-breathing episodes and doesn''t snore (unless she has a cold). I appreciate you bringing that up, though, because I have read that sleep apnea can often go undiagnosed in both children and adults. Again, good luck with your son''s surgery!

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 9/18/2008 1:48:59 AM
Author: Demelza
Tgal -- Out of curiosity, of your friends who co-sleep, do/did they also night nurse? I think breastfeeding is an important part of the sleep equation. I''d also be curious to know how the temperaments of the good sleepers compare to the temperaments of the not-so-good sleepers.

I know two out of the three did, but I don''t know for how long. Definitely for less than one year. The third mom, I have no idea.

Temperments...

The two CIO kids have the same mom. The girl, who is 7 was a fussy baby, had reflux issues (don''t think it was severe), and not easy at all. She was sleep trained at 3 (full, so pretty much 4) months. The son, who is 3.5 is a very easy going child. However with him, he had a harder time with sleep and she didn''t feel he was ready until 5 months. Each child took about a week to sleep train (maybe slightly less), according to her.

The one who was in his crib early and whose mom used the pick him up, rock, put him down method is now 4+ years old and seemed to be a pretty easy kid. However, this method she said took a few weeks.

The one who was in his crib early on but is picked up every time he cries and rocked to sleep (and can''t self soothe) is possibly the easiest going baby ever. Very happy child. However bedtime and naps are where the problems are. Some nights he does conk out if tired. Some nights it''s an hour long ordeal of him screaming and her trying to rock and put him down (the screaming starts with the putting down part). I wonder if this boy wouldn''t have been the "perfect" child to sleep train as he was an easy easy baby. But they rocked him to bed from early on (coslept early actually but put him in his crib at a few weeks). Nap schedules were erratic (often in the carseat while she ran errands) and the first few months gave him a bedtime of midnight to 1 am. He now goes to bed at 9:30, which is considered early at their household. When things go well, he will sleep until about 7am, but has had waking issues as of late where he wants to eat or play (and they do humor him). He is 11 months.

The one who slept in her carseat...don''t know her well but word is she is a crying, clingy baby. However I hear she sleeps from 9-5 and she''s now 7 months.

The cosleepers....well, one is a nice kid but it''s hard to say because he''s spoiled and knows no discipline. He''s the one that was allowed to stay up until 1 or 2 am when he was 2. The other two are very sweet kids - 1 a little more clingy and attached to his mother than the other. Other than sleep, they seem to be happy, well behaved boys.

 

[Burk]

I have no advice. My daughter is only 8 months and a pretty good sleeper. I think it''s partially luck. I just wanted to pop in and say good luck. I know what lack of sleep does to me...I cannot imagine almost two full years of it! You poor thing!

 

[Allisonfaye]

I apologize that I dont have time to read all of the replies to see if this was suggested or now. Does she have a little snugli or something soft to hold while she sleeps? Both my girls have had these and have slept through the night since they were 8 or 9 months old. They see them now and they immediately start sucking their thumb or fingers and I can just see them relax.

 

[Demelza]

I seriously think I''m going to lose my mind. I was really trying to be zen about the whole thing and just let her figure it out in her own time, but her sleep has been absolutely unbearable the last week or so. She does well until about 3 am and then she''s up every 10 minutes or so until 7! Nursing her doesn''t seem to work anymore. I honestly don''t know what she wants, but I can''t take it anymore. I guess we can try night weaning her tonight. My husband can sleep with her and I''ll go in another room. Anyway, I know there are no magic solutions out there, just wanted to vent. Thanks for listening!

 

[vespergirl]

My son had always been a pretty good sleeper, but at 9 months he was still getting up at night for one feeding, and our pediatrician said that if we wanted to sleep-train him to sleep the night, we should start then. We never let him co-sleep past the time he was around 3 months old in the sidecar crib that attached to our bed, because my husband wasn''t getting any sleep, and he has a demanding job, and needs his rest. We ALWAYS put him to bed in his room, and at 22 months, he loves his crib. He actually tells us when he wants to take a nap and when he wants to go to bed, and I think it''s because he''s so familiar and comfortable with his own room.

But, I digress - this is how our "Ferberizing" went - the first night, he got up around 2:30, when he always got up for his middle-of-the-night feeding. I didn''t go in there. Neither did my husband. We poked our heads into the room to make sure he was OK & told him to go back to sleep at increasing intervals - 5 min, 10 min, 15 min, etc. BUT WE DID NOT TOUCH HIM OR PICK HIM UP. When you do that, it teaches them that crying louder is going to make you do what they want. After 1/2 hour of crying, I was sobbing and wanted to pick him up, but my husband stopped me - he said what our pediatrician said - that would just teach him that eventually he''ll get what he wants. It was agonizing for me, but after an hour of crying (with us checking on him to make sure he was OK but NOT PICKING HIM UP) he fell asleep.

He never woke up at night again!!! It took us one night to Ferberize him. If it were just up to me, I would have definitely gone in there and ruined it - our Ped said that actually he sometimes recommends the mom go stay at a friend''s house for a night or two to Ferberize because usually the mom will give in, and the baby learns that they are in charge of bedtime - so, if your husband is more resilient, you may want to let him be the one to Ferberize. Since my baby was 9 months old, he has been sleeping for 12 hours every night (7pm - 7 am).

I read the book Twelve Hours Sleep at Twelve Weeks by Suzy Giordano, and it really worked for our family - it was written by a sleep consultant who actually lives in our area, and even though I couldn''t believe that the things she said would happen would happen, they did (asking for naptimes, telling parents when they;re ready for bed, etc.)

I hate to say it, but I have several friends who let the kids sleep with them, and they all had awful sleep problems - not sleeping, getting up every two hours, still insisting on sleeping with their parents at 4 years old, etc. Since we heard about this before we had our son, we knew that we did not want him to co-sleep, and he loves sleeping in his crib, because that''s what we trained him to do. I''m glad that we had heard about sleep problems beforehand, so we were able to avoid a lot of it. I do recommend the Giordano book - I found it more accessible than Dr. Ferber''s.

 

[puffy]

Demalza i am so sorry you are going through this. i know there are no magic solutions and hopefully your little girl will figure it out soon. you say that you have already tried sleep consultants will no avail? usually, i hear that they work pretty well. you might just have to try a modified Ferberize method. But like you said, all kids are different to how they react to CIO. i just hope you can get some sleep.

Vespergirl you are quite lucky that your son got the idea in 1 night and it ONLY took him 1 hour. my son is 9 months right now and from day 1 he has been an awesome sleeper, he just can''t seem to get enough of it. he will put himself to sleep and when he wakes in the morning, he will play by himself until he gets bored then he''ll cry out for me. but i have a few friends who have terrible sleepers and they have tried to Ferberize and it has not worked. Some kids get so worked up that it becomes unhealthy for them to cry the way they do or they just keep going at it. congrats to you on raising an awesome sleeper!!!

 

[Demelza]

Vespergirl -- Thanks for the recommendations. I''m glad Ferber worked so well for you. I have to say, though, that we had no success after three full weeks. We tried it when she was 17 months under the guidance of a sleep expert. We rigidly adhered to the schedule and had moderate success in some areas (namely, she learned to put herself to sleep), but by the end of three weeks, she was still crying for up to 2 hours. She was not herself during the day and would cry at the sight of a photo of a baby sleeping. We could have persisted in the hopes it would work after a few more weeks, but no one in our family was doing well. Even the sleep consultant agreed that it would be best to stop and perhaps try again at a later date. My husband and I have talked about doing it again, but it was so miserable, I just don''t know that I have the strength to give it another shot, especially given how poorly she responded the first time.

Puffy -- Yes, we''ve tried 3 different sleep consultants. With each one, we had good success getting our daughter to put herself down at the start of the night, but no success getting her to stay asleep. Congrats on having a great sleeper! I can''t stress enough how lucky you are!!!

 

[TravelingGal]

Ugh Demelza, I am so sorry to hear this. Sounds like you have done everything you can. I wish there was something we could all do for you.

Vespergirl, I had the same observation as you, which is why I decided to research sleep issues while I was still pregnant. With any sleep training method, I believe the earlier you start figuring it out with your kid, the better off you''ll be (generally speaking...there are just some babies who are harder than others). I also think that training doesn''t have to happen "overnight" meaning all off the sudden you decide to do a week of CIO. You can do things along the way to help with sleep.

And I do think if at 9 months was the first attempt at sleep training, you were very fortunate!

 

[AGSHF]

Demelza,

I'm sorry to hear that things are not going at all well. Sleep disturbance and deprivation are among the worst things a person has to endure. I'm going to list some thoughts in the hope that they will help you focus your approach.

(1) Get as much rest yourself as you can during the day. I don't know if you work outside the home, but given the fact that your daughter's night wakings are a huge "problem" right now and will need to be dealt with, then you need to have as much rest as possible during the day so that you can function properly to help her work things out at night. If at all possible, nap with her and store up some rest for yourself so that when the "battle" begins at night, you can deal with it without losing your composure and having to "give up" just to survive the night.

(2) There are really two issues -- night weaning and night waking. If you can be firm and refuse the "boobie" demands and offer her an alternative for soothing, at least you are one step on the way towards progress. I'm not sure if the solution is (A) for you to sleep with your daughter in a separate room and try the "refusal" method until it works out, no doubt after much unhappiness from her, or (B) for your husband to sleep with your daughter so that you are away from her and she can't reach for you those nights. You'll have to sort this out given the practicalities of who has more energy to deal with it, etc. I'm thinking it should be option (A) because you are the one who has to be firm in your night weaning and what may work when you're not in the room may not work when you are.

(3) Whatever you try to do may make things "worse" for a short time. Your daughter is old enough and bright enough to figure out that you are changing things on her. She won't like that and will let you know! Along with whatever development milestones she's having to deal with already, a change in HER sleep habits is not welcome to her...so she will resist furiously at first, but you have to work through it firmly. She knows that you adore her and already lavish much your attention on her.

(4) I hope that you and your DH are united on the approach you take. Children really can sense when one parent is wavering in his/her resolve and react accordingly, whether it be by crying and screaming more insistently or behaving differently depending on who is in charge.

(5) Sleeping "training" a 22-month old child is not the same as sleep training a newborn, an infant, a 6-month baby, a 12-month old or an 18-month old or, for that matter, your best friend's baby. There are just too many different things happening at these different stages of development that can cause sleep issues or wakefulness, not to mention personality, behavioral and disciplinary differences among families and household dynamics. So, bottom line, you have to work with the child you have and her behavior. If certain magical techniques work for every other child but don't work for yours, you just have work with the child you have and go on to next plan.

(6) That said, there ARE ways to teach your (or any) child to soothe herself, ways to figure out why she's waking at night -- is it night terrors, separation anxiety (not likely, I know, given she's right next to you), discomfort, molar teething, "organic" sleep disorder -- and then use firm and compassionate ways to help her through this problem.

(7) If you haven't already, you'll probably need to arm yourself with some reading and research. There's Ferber, William Sears, T. Berry Brazelton, and any number of others who have written about sleep issues. It may not be too late to resort to "basic" and trusted pediatric advice from these older experts because it seems to me that the new expert advice are all variations of the CIO/not CIO, co-sleeping or not debates. The bottom line, though, is whether you can "agree" with any of their approaches and use them consistently.

( This is going to sound silly, but you have to work with the child you have now. CIO may have been a fiasco some time ago, but perhaps with a different approach at her current age, it would work? Perhaps it would be useful to try to figure out the underlying issues that make your child a "poor" sleeper and if she is otherwise healthy and robust, perhaps she just likes too much using "boobie" as a pacifier and denying her this won't cause her harm?

(9) When we were dealing with my daughter's sleeping issues, I got a great deal of comfort reading Dr. Sears. His approach allows for co-sleeping so perhaps you can start there? I did a quick search and found his website. Maybe you will get some insight as well.

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/7/T070100.asp


Just know that I feel for you and don't profess any expertise. You can help your child work her way through this.


ETA: Here's a link that has specific suggestions to address night wakefulness:

http://www.parenting.com/article/Toddler/Behavior/Kid-Sleep-1199994102305

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 9/21/2008 1:56:02 PM
Author: Demelza
Vespergirl -- Thanks for the recommendations. I''m glad Ferber worked so well for you. I have to say, though, that we had no success after three full weeks. We tried it when she was 17 months under the guidance of a sleep expert. We rigidly adhered to the schedule and had moderate success in some areas (namely, she learned to put herself to sleep), but by the end of three weeks, she was still crying for up to 2 hours. She was not herself during the day and would cry at the sight of a photo of a baby sleeping. We could have persisted in the hopes it would work after a few more weeks, but no one in our family was doing well. Even the sleep consultant agreed that it would be best to stop and perhaps try again at a later date. My husband and I have talked about doing it again, but it was so miserable, I just don''t know that I have the strength to give it another shot, especially given how poorly she responded the first time.

Puffy -- Yes, we''ve tried 3 different sleep consultants. With each one, we had good success getting our daughter to put herself down at the start of the night, but no success getting her to stay asleep. Congrats on having a great sleeper! I can''t stress enough how lucky you are!!!

Hey Demelza, I''m sorry to hear it didn''t work for you - I think every kid has their own way they do things. My son is a good sleeper, but a horrible eater. He''s really thin, and will only ever eat two bites of anything and then he''s full. We had a similar experience where we brought him to an occupational therapist to help him eat (he chews meat & spits it out). After 5 days of adhering to her rules, he actually totally stopped eating and lost a pound, so I guess it shows that the experts don''t know everything and not every technique works for everyone.

I''ll be thinking about you guys - hopefully things will get better soon for you!

 

[swingirl]

Hey Demelza, I''m sorry to hear it didn''t work for you - I think every kid has their own way they do things. My son is a good sleeper, but a horrible eater. He''s really thin, and will only ever eat two bites of anything and then he''s full. We had a similar experience where we brought him to an occupational therapist to help him eat (he chews meat & spits it out). After 5 days of adhering to her rules, he actually totally stopped eating and lost a pound, so I guess it shows that the experts don''t know everything and not every technique works for everyone.


I''ll be thinking about you guys - hopefully things will get better soon for you!

I feel for you here, too. My son wasn''t a "good" eater (whatever that means). He ate very healthful foods (fish, salad, fruit) but just not a lot of them. I can''t imagine the method one would use to get someone to eat when they are not hungry but I think kids sometimes are just following their own body rhythms. My son is still very thin but doesn''t live at home and feeds himself what he wants and when he wants it. 125lb and 6 ft tall. There isn''t anything wrong with being thin as long as their diet is balanced.

 

[Demelza]

AGSHF -- Thanks so much for taking the time to write such a thoughtful reply. I get the sense we have a similar approach to these issues. I, too, have read a lot of Dr. Sears and like much of what he has to say (with some reservations). Anyway, we''ve finally decided to bite the bullet and nightwean her once and for all. Last night was the second night. It was very hard, but easier than the first night. She slept well until 3:30 and then was up a ton until we got up for good at 6:30. I''m hoping for a better night tonight. Thanks again for all your thoughtful advice -- I''ll keep you posted on what happens!

Vespergirl -- I can sympathize with your son''s eating issues. My daughter is also very thin -- at nearly 2 years old, she''s just now 20 pounds! The doctor ruled out any kind of medical condition (namely, celiac disease) and said it''s just genetics. I''m petite and my husband, while tall, is very slight. She''s just now getting to a place where she eats what seems like a reasonable amount, although she''s very picky. My approach is just to trust that her body is getting what it needs. I try to offer good foods and let her take care of the rest. Out of curiosity, what were the occupational therapist''s rules? Has the doctor ruled out any medical condition? Are you worried?

 

[VegasAngel]

Sorry about the sleeping troubles, night weaning will help a lot. I''ve switched sleeping arrangements so many times now I need help too, ha. Well, i''m lenient so...

I have a skinny minnie, too. My 2 1/2YO is maybe 23lbs? She eats to live & is super active.

 

[AGSHF]

Demelza -- I''ve been thinking about you. Think positive and I hope that each night will get better. Stay firmly in control and don''t give up on your hard work.

For the moms with "skinny" toddlers, I hope that your ped''s have prescribed supplementing with vitamins and minerals? Calcium is especially important, for obvious reasons. I''m sure they have, but just making sure.

BTW, my daughter loved cheese, especially string cheese. She thought it was the most magical food and, even today, can''t get enough of it.