The Perfect Diamond

[drk14]

@Serg -- If you would entertain a hypothetical scenario in which the future cost of automation does drop below the cost of manual production (due to technological improvements, economies of scale, etc.), what is your opinion on the following?

1) Assuming this scenario allows a large proportion of cutters to consistently produce optically symmetric superideal MRBs, will superideals come to dominate the market (i.e., is there an inherent demand for superideals?)

2) Assuming Scenario 1 comes to pass, will the retail price of superideal MRBs decrease due to commodification?

3) Assuming Scenario 2 comes to pass, how do you think the industry will attempt to differentiate diamond products to be able to command a premium price? New cut designs? Will a manually cut superideal be perceived as more valuable than a machine-cut superideal? In this hypothetical universe, could a manually cut non-ideal diamond become more valuable than a machine-cut superideal?

Obviously, the above calls for a significant amount of speculation, but I am very interested to hear if you or other industry members have any opinions surrounding the above line of thought. Of course, it is possible that the whole premise of this exercise (widespread automation) may be so unrealistic as to make discussion of the above pointless!

 

[Consumerx1138]

You have so many question in different( perpendicular ) directions, so any my answer will a tangent.
What is your Main Point? Please describe One main your statement in details instead many short chaotic questions and I will try to give you direct and full answer.

May be you find some answers to your questions in our 9 and 10 years old letters to to editor ( Rapaport magazine )
http://octonus.com/oct/projects/letter_to_editor2.phtml
http://octonus.com/oct/projects/letter_to_editor.phtml

Again:

If we look at automated (computer) production of just about every product made today we see the value of mass produced computer assisted "perfect" products tend to reduce their status to common, banal, mundane while reducing their value.

As we go forward and diamonds are produced in the same (CNC) manner, with absolute perfection as the goal, why will this (drop in value) not be true in this industry as well? A lot of jewelry is already created this way, as opposed to hand crafted.

The topic is about how culture will value mass production.

 

[Consumerx1138]

@Serg -- If you would entertain a hypothetical scenario in which the future cost of automation does drop below the cost of manual production (due to technological improvements, economies of scale, etc.), what is your opinion on the following?

1) Assuming this scenario allows a large proportion of cutters to consistently produce optically symmetric superideal MRBs, will superideals come to dominate the market (i.e., is there an inherent demand for superideals?)

2) Assuming Scenario 1 comes to pass, will the retail price of superideal MRBs decrease due to commodification?

3) Assuming Scenario 2 comes to pass, how do you think the industry will attempt to differentiate diamond products to be able to command a premium price? New cut designs? Will a manually cut superideal be perceived as more valuable than a machine-cut superideal? In this hypothetical universe, could a manually cut non-ideal diamond become more valuable than a machine-cut superideal?

Obviously, the above calls for a significant amount of speculation, but I am very interested to hear if you or other industry members have any opinions surrounding the above line of thought. Of course, it is possible that the whole premise of this exercise (widespread automation) may be so unrealistic as to make discussion of the above pointless!

drk14 - The way the industry currently manages business: marketing messages. It will be no different in the future because humans are social, story is practically in our DNA.

As fas as the "value", commodification is one aspect, but maybe as important will be culture/perception. I know many hip savvy people who currently view the perfect of mass automated production to be common, mundane, lesser value. Some fine artists explore this theme as well.

As far as speculation, I would think we have models now, and in the past which would help us perceive and understand both the culture and technological change.

 

[drk14]

@Consumerx1138 , thanks for sharing your thoughts, but I was more interested in an industry perspective from those currently involved in the diamond trade.

 

[Consumerx1138]

@Consumerx1138 , thanks for sharing your thoughts, but I was more interested in an industry perspective from those currently involved in the diamond trade.

Aside from marketing messages, who shapes the value culture assigns to things?
(That is central to the topic of this thread)

Industry is littered with the skeletons of business and cultural errs

 

[Serg]

@Serg -- If you would entertain a hypothetical scenario in which the future cost of automation does drop below the cost of manual production (due to technological improvements, economies of scale, etc.), what is your opinion on the following?

1) Assuming this scenario allows a large proportion of cutters to consistently produce optically symmetric superideal MRBs, will superideals come to dominate the market (i.e., is there an inherent demand for superideals?)

2) Assuming Scenario 1 comes to pass, will the retail price of superideal MRBs decrease due to commodification?

3) Assuming Scenario 2 comes to pass, how do you think the industry will attempt to differentiate diamond products to be able to command a premium price? New cut designs? Will a manually cut superideal be perceived as more valuable than a machine-cut superideal? In this hypothetical universe, could a manually cut non-ideal diamond become more valuable than a machine-cut superideal?

Obviously, the above calls for a significant amount of speculation, but I am very interested to hear if you or other industry members have any opinions surrounding the above line of thought. Of course, it is possible that the whole premise of this exercise (widespread automation) may be so unrealistic as to make discussion of the above pointless!

1) if you compare best 50% MRB with 10 years old RB then all these modern diamonds are superideal in 10-20 years old industry standards. Did it create any additional margin for cutters. No.
Did any other innovation in last 100 years increases diamond manufactures margin? No.! why?
Mining companies always increase rough price when cutters find way to increase margin

2) MRB is commodity last several years. But it is not main reason why polished diamonds prices dropped in last several years.
3) I delivered my vision for this issues to to Surat diamond industry in 2008.




You may find full presentation here
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qvwcofun0g6fery/2008 December India_25_12_2008_version3_2612.ppt?dl=0
my vision is slightly different now

 

[drk14]

@Serg -- thanks for the informative response.

Did any other innovation in last 100 years increases diamond manufactures margin? No.! why?
Mining companies always increase rough price when cutters find way to increase margin

Ouch... that's rough! (pardon the pun)

You may find full presentation here
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qvwcofun0g6fery/2008 December India_25_12_2008_version3_2612.ppt?dl=0

The link unfortunately didn't work ("Access to this link has been disabled. Please ask the owner of the shared link to send a new link to access the file or the folder.") Based on the few slides that were included in your post, I'm guessing your prediction is that differentiation will occur through new cut designs -- if so, how will this get around the "copy cat" problem mentioned in one of the slides? By patent protection?

my vision is slightly different now

How has your vision evolved?

 

[Consumerx1138]

Serg - Much of that (barrier to entry, copying, etc.) are true about many other industries too.
While your comments do add context, how do you see this influencing the perceived cultural value of mass produced (finished) stones?

 

[Serg]

Drk,

please try other link
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5bnvmqlxvie4x51/2008 December India_25_12_2008_version3_2612.ppt?dl=0

Does it work now?

 

[drk14]

Does it work now?

Yes, the new link works, thanks. Interesting ideas. That was in 2008 ... how much of that vision is still progressing towards reality? How has your outlook changed since then?

 

[OoohShiny]

Slightly off topic... but I see one of the slides says diamonds are presented at BaselWorld - is there a diamond expo there that the public can attend?

 

[Serg]

Yes, the new link works, thanks. Interesting ideas. That was in 2008 ... how much of that vision is still progressing towards reality? How has your outlook changed since then?

in technical direction we have good progress . we developed roughly 70% all necessary technologies.
some results you may see https://cutwise.com/?show-filters=o...filters.b2b=|6&format=videoGirdle&stereo=sets
In trade shows for customers, Next Diamond business model ..progress is zero.
last presentation had been done in 2015.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k3pf93za8...entation_Oct2015_ShortV1_PowerPoint.pptx?dl=0
it is link to short version . you need download it firstly then see in PowerPoint, (it include 250+Mb videos.)
Next presentation we will do in September on Antwerp expo

 

[Serg]

Slightly off topic... but I see one of the slides says diamonds are presented at BaselWorld - is there a diamond expo there that the public can attend?

No. it is very big mistake from diamond industry. Direct 2 directions communication between produce and consumer is very important and such communication is still absent .

 

[Serg]

Serg - Much of that (barrier to entry, copying, etc.) are true about many other industries too.
While your comments do add context, how do you see this influencing the perceived cultural value of mass produced (finished) stones?

Mass productions in diamond( for natural diamonds) industry is present at least 50 years. it has much less influence to perceived cultured value than a lot faked material in mass media about blood diamonds, child labor , etc,..
or do you ask about synthetic diamond mass production ?

See Swarowski business story. Swarovski works with glass as with diamonds when diamond industry works with diamonds as with glass.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Serg - Much of that (barrier to entry, copying, etc.) are true about many other industries too.
While your comments do add context, how do you see this influencing the perceived cultural value of mass produced (finished) stones?

Dear ConsumerX, you are way out of your depth.
Serg has developed much of the semi automation and new tools technologies used today.
Sadly, his scanner resulted in less than more perfect MRB diamonds being polished today because it enables cutters to push the limits of GIA's Excellent cut grade by pushing out the symmetry and depth proportions to the limit and still knowing they will sneak into the GIA's top grades - where the vast majority of 1ct rounds now fall. This can enable goods that might have otherwise made 0.980ct reaching 0.999ct =1.00ct.
He has worked on water cooled bruiting devices and special holding tools to reduce that heat expansion issue you missed on the end of the first page - one of the hurdles to automation.

OHSOShiny - Basel is a closed trade only event.

 

[Consumerx1138]

Dear ConsumerX, you are way out of your depth.
Serg has developed much of the semi automation and new tools technologies used today.
Sadly, his scanner resulted in less than more perfect MRB diamonds being polished today because it enables cutters to push the limits of GIA's Excellent cut grade by pushing out the symmetry and depth proportions to the limit and still knowing they will sneak into the GIA's top grades - where the vast majority of 1ct rounds now fall. This can enable goods that might have otherwise made 0.980ct reaching 0.999ct =1.00ct.
He has worked on water cooled bruiting devices and special holding tools to reduce that heat expansion issue you missed on the end of the first page - one of the hurdles to automation.

OHSOShiny - Basel is a closed trade only event.

Garry - Why don't you respond to my OP?
Historically technology has done EXACTLY what I describe - why would the consumer diamond market be any different, SPECIFICALLY?

Possibly the point of this topic has been missed by you?
Apparently it was missed by whomever moved it into this part of the forum as well.
This post is NOT about lab created diamonds - however no man (or industry) is an island, everything has a CONTEXT.

 

[Consumerx1138]

Mass productions in diamond( for natural diamonds) industry is present at least 50 years. it has much less influence to perceived cultured value than a lot faked material in mass media about blood diamonds, child labor , etc,..
or do you ask about synthetic diamond mass production ?

See Swarowski business story. Swarovski works with glass as with diamonds when diamond industry works with diamonds as with glass.

Serge - Where is your argument?
None of these are mutually exclusive, nor have much direct relevance on my OP

 

[Consumerx1138]

Note to moderator who moved this thread:
The post is NOT about Lab created diamonds!
It has been improperly moved to the wrong forum.

The post is about the cultural perception of mass produced (perfected) consumer goods - with a focus on diamonds (and possibly other gemstones).

 

[Serg]

Serge - Where is your argument?
None of these are mutually exclusive, nor have much direct relevance on my OP

May be you need better clarify your main question, statement?
I gave answer to your question as I understood your question. if I , Garry, moderator misunderstood your question may be it is sign to you rewrite your question in better style?

 

[Consumerx1138]

May be you need better clarify your main question, statement?
I gave answer to your question as I understood your question. if I , Garry, moderator misunderstood your question may be it is sign to you rewrite your question in better style?

I have TWICE!
I can communicate, I can't reason for you.
I can only simplify things so far, before they lose meaning.

 

[John P]

If we look at automated (computer) production of just about every product made today we see the value of mass produced computer assisted "perfect" products tend to reduce their status to common, banal, mundane while reducing their value.

As we go forward and diamonds are produced in the same (CNC) manner, with absolute perfection as the goal, why will this (drop in value) not be true in this industry as well?

I have some thoughts which may be germane, regarding the text in blue.

automation in most other industries has led to a perfection of symmetry.

Very true. But perfection of symmetry isn't a widely embraced goal here.

Why?

1. Lack of need: “Perfection of symmetry" is not required for “perfection of grading.” The symmetry grade on lab reports judges 2D surface details only, not a diamond’s 3D physical symmetry (this fact is a constant source of confusion). Since their diamonds already achieve top marks for cutting there is no need for producers to spend extra time - and especially polish away extra carat weight - to fine-tune for improvement that’s not graded or rewarded by the authorities.

2. Lack of demand: Most consumers don’t know or don’t care about the above. There is a niche audience of enthusiasts seeking perfection of symmetry, and niche operations focused on serving that audience (full disclosure; my company is one of them), but we represent a small fraction of the trade at large.

3. Lack of communication: Our industry is rather closed, with nearly no direct communication between producers and consumers. If dialogue improved, perhaps #1 and #2 would receive more attention and evolve more deliberately (dear fancy lovers, please read to the end before flaming me ).

4. Scale of challenge: Consider #1, #2 and #3, and add that diamond is the hardest known natural substance. Really, diamond is flat-out an absolute beast to work with. We sink the legs of our polishing mills a meter into the ground, and even removed our operation away from airports or roads with trucks, as the slightest ground vibrations influence the level of precision we chase. In addition to aforementioned issues with extremes of temperatures and accuracy, diamond crystals have harder and softer spots (like wood) as well as natural characteristics present. I do believe the singularity is near. But with no clear strategic or economic advantage pushing things along, and the scale of the challenge posed by the beast we work with, the automation may not be following the curve of other industries.

Add to that:

Taste and diversity: Perception of diamond perfection regularly departs from symmetry. Some people like asymmetrical antique cuts. Some like the shape aesthetic of fancy cuts, where perfection of symmetry may or may not apply. Sometimes you even find people who voice a preference for the chaotic, unstructured look of asymmetry.

Just imagine a world where we had no limit to rough size, shape, color – and the ability to precision cut any design without worrying about expense. In such a world a proposition like Next Diamond may come to represent the full creative evolution of the diamond species.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k3pf93za8...entation_Oct2015_ShortV1_PowerPoint.pptx?dl=0

In such a case I could agree with Consumerx1138: Formerly mass-produced perfectly symmetrical traditional shapes might continue to hold appeal for some, but they could easily take a backseat to the ability to dream, plan and execute your own diamond with no limits to size, shape or color; wherever your creativity might take you.

 

[Consumerx1138]

John,

Thank you for your comment. It better addresses the perception of value over the pure production direction the thread started to stray.

Why are round cuts so popular today?
Why are diamonds desired to the degree they are (or not) today?
Many on this forum DO seek a (relative) perfection of symmetry; religiously, evangelically, and dogmatically.


symmetry |ˈsimitrē|
noun ( pl. -tries)
the quality of being made up of exactly similar parts facing each other or around an axis


As far as the public's conscious demands in shaping their own futures...... (LMAO!)
Most people are followers (homogeneous).

Even more amusing, why do people want natural diamonds, but then insist on the finished product being anything but natural (a complete reflection of a man made product)? Obviously this entire market is driven by emotion...

Personally my fave cut right now is as far as you can get from this forum's common tastes, I like a vintage/antique French cut. But even when it comes to the most heavily marketed cut (round brilliant) I feel the "perfection of symmetry" produces some things I really don't like. Sure maybe perfect symmetry may produce more efficient light travel (to what percentage/degree??? ie: how much more noticeable is an excellent to a good cut all things being equal?).

What I LOVE about diamonds are the seemingly eternal and infinite random reflections, sparkle, transparency in some stones. Perfection of symmetry may not provide that look, the particular profile the tribe here seems to prefer, I find boring and distracting. It does NOT feel infinite or eternal, it feels like a branded product with a STAR logo. On a visual level, I find most of the aesthetic not pleasing to the eye, more like a comparison between a marketing logo and an impressionist painting, or the authentic scene portrayed in the impressionism. So, some asymmetry may actually allow a diamonds reflections, transmission, and deflection to create a different (more beautiful) aesthetic.

But aesthetics are subjective (including those in diamonds). Tastes and trends change, cultures change. There will probably always be a few more iconoclasts, and another group more herd like. I believe my original statement is sound regarding the (common) value assigned to the (relative, or absolute) perfection in mass production today, via technological advance. We see it throughout our (consumer) lives. Why would that not be reflected in gemstone products as well?

 

[drk14]

@Serg -- Thanks for the response.

some results you may see https://cutwise.com/?show-filters=o...filters.b2b=|6&format=videoGirdle&stereo=sets

Yes, I remember seeing some of the Cutwise tools previously -- very helpful. What's the trajectory of this -- i.e., do you foresee the database growing to the point when Cutwise can be used to select stones for PS shoppers?

In trade shows for customers, Next Diamond business model ..progress is zero.

That's too bad, Next Diamond is an exciting idea -- are you moving on to other approaches, or do you still hold out hope for a novel business model like Next Diamond?

last presentation had been done in 2015.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k3pf93za8...entation_Oct2015_ShortV1_PowerPoint.pptx?dl=0
it is link to short version . you need download it firstly then see in PowerPoint, (it include 250+Mb videos.)

I was able to view the slides, but unfortunately my work computer doesn't play QuickTime movies.

I want to make sure I understand your main point (of the 2015 presentation) -- if I can paraphrase what I took away from it: With commodification of decently cut rounds, diversification/growth opportunity for the industry is primarily in the sale of fancy cuts. However, fancy cuts generally suffer from poor light performance, so HPD approach to cut design will be necessary to overcome this problem and make possible USP based on fancies. Did I get it (somewhat) right?

Also, the HPD melee slides were very interesting. I'm curious how the HPD melee performs vs single-cuts, though.

 

[Consumerx1138]

@Serg -- Thanks for the response.



Yes, I remember seeing some of the Cutwise tools previously -- very helpful. What's the trajectory of this -- i.e., do you foresee the database growing to the point when Cutwise can be used to select stones for PS shoppers?



That's too bad, Next Diamond is an exciting idea -- are you moving on to other approaches, or do you still hold out hope for a novel business model like Next Diamond?



I was able to view the slides, but unfortunately my work computer doesn't play QuickTime movies.

I want to make sure I understand your main point (of the 2015 presentation) -- if I can paraphrase what I took away from it: With commodification of decently cut rounds, diversification/growth opportunity for the industry is primarily in the sale of fancy cuts. However, fancy cuts generally suffer from poor light performance, so HPD approach to cut design will be necessary to overcome this problem and make possible USP based on fancies. Did I get it (somewhat) right?

Also, the HPD melee slides were very interesting. I'm curious how the HPD melee performs vs single-cuts, though.

Maybe you folks could start your own thread on your topic of discussion?

 

[Serg]

John,



Why are round cuts so popular today?

...

 

[Serg]

@Serg -

I want to make sure I understand your main point (of the 2015 presentation) -- if I can paraphrase what I took away from it: With commodification of decently cut rounds, diversification/growth opportunity for the industry is primarily in the sale of fancy cuts. However, fancy cuts generally suffer from poor light performance, so HPD approach to cut design will be necessary to overcome this problem and make possible USP based on fancies. Did I get it (somewhat) right?

.

HPD Fancy cuts are necessary part of conditions for growth( survive ) diamond market. it is not enough.

It is not enough to develop a Fancy cuts better than Round cut, you also need market infrastructure to sell it with premium to round cut.
Cost pf production HPD fancy cut is much bigger than cost of production H&A AGS0 round cut:
1) current cutting technologies had been adopted for round cut.
2) Yield for HPD fancy cuts are much less than yield for standard fancy cuts, because you have to fix proportions and girdle shape. To receive comparable yield you need use above 100 HPD fancy cuts. It is huge investments in R&D and retail stock. it can not work without dramatical shift in diamond market business model.

 

[Consumerx1138]

Serg - My question was addressed to John.
(I believe your memes miss fundamental criteria).

 

[Serg]

Serg - My question was addressed to John.
..

Have you to receive your personal permission for answer to your public questions? have I to receive your personal permission to any publication in this thread ? please clarify "Rules" of your game here

 

[Serg]

(I believe your memes miss fundamental criteria).

Which one?

I do not see any criteria in my memes. its includes reasons.
Round cut is most popular now because it is most simple and safe solutions for all market participants : Cutters, Labs, retail, consumers.

 

[Consumerx1138]

criterion |krīˈti(ə)rēən|
noun ( pl. -teria |-ˈti(ə)rēə|)
a principle or standard by which something may be judged or decided