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The Myth of "Good" and "Bad" Covid Vaccines

YadaYadaYada

Ideal_Rock
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I posted my response to Seaurchin as you were responding to me @elizat. Needless to say we are on the same page. Anyone with a history of blood clots (not just me) should really consult their doctor before proceeding. Just my opinion.
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
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@YadaYadaYada I am currently in the USA. I hope it will be applicable to your situation.
 

Jambalaya

Ideal_Rock
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Btw @Jambalaya sorry if my question has derailed your thread! Not my intention at all.

No, no, not at all! The discussion is very interesting.

Perhaps I should go get some baby aspirin, having had the J&J shot last week - and being very overweight!
 

YadaYadaYada

Ideal_Rock
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No, no, not at all! The discussion is very interesting.

Perhaps I should go get some baby aspirin, having had the J&J shot last week - and being very overweight!

Couldn’t hurt to ask your doctor, I know my husbands doctor recommended baby aspirin since he is overweight but he also has high blood pressure and is diabetic. I am overweight too but quite a bit but despite the blood clot they did not put me on a blood thinner or baby aspirin. Probably because I got the clot when I was pregnant and they considered it a “condition of pregnancy”. Insert eye roll here.
 

Jambalaya

Ideal_Rock
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I wonder what the time lag is between the J&J shot and the reported blood clots. (Not saying that one definitely causes the other.) I had my J&J shot five days ago.
 

Karl_K

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Some info on the AstraZeneca COVID-19 blood clots in Europe which uses similar tech to the j&j:
 

elizat

Ideal_Rock
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I wonder what the time lag is between the J&J shot and the reported blood clots. (Not saying that one definitely causes the other.) I had my J&J shot five days ago.

I have seen a reference to three weeks post shot to monitor for signs of clot.

USA Today (so not my ideal source) but at least it quotes the person for the three week window they say to monitor.

 

adlgel

Shiny_Rock
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I Just got my first Moderna shot yesterday through my county health department and I live in the US. The consent form asked these questions:

1. Are you feeling sick today?
2. In the last 10 days, have you had a COVID-19 test or been told by a healthcare provider or health department to isolate or quarantine at home due to COVID-19 infection or exposure?
3. Have you been treated with antibody therapy for COVID-19 in the past 90 days (3 months)? If yes, when did you receive the last dose? Date:
4. Do you carry an Epi-pen for emergency treatment of anaphylaxis and/or have allergies or reactions to any medications, foods, vaccines or latex?
5. Have you had any vaccines in the past 14 days (2 weeks) including flu shot? If yes, how long ago was your most recent vaccine? Date:
6. Are you pregnant or lactating, or considering becoming pregnant?
7. Do you have cancer, leukemia, HIV/AIDS, a history of autoimmune disease or any other condition that weakens the immune system?
8. Do you take any medications that affect your immune system, such as cortisone, prednisone or other steroids, anticancer drugs, or have you had any radiation treatments?
9. Have you received a previous dose of any COVID-19 vaccine? If yes, which manufacturer’s vaccine did you receive:
10. Did you have any allergy symptoms after a COVID-19 vaccine?

So no questions about clotting risk. When you handed this form into someone they then asked for confirmation about allergies. However, I also heard other workers at this checkpoint ask questions about whether you are prone to fainting.

I answered yes to having a medication allergy and even though it's in the "cillin" family and it is not present in the vaccine they made me wait 30 minutes rather than 15. However the level of monitoring at this particular site is basically non-existent. I said to my husband if I actually had a reaction I'm not sure whose job it is to notice other than perhaps the fellow citizens around me.
 

seaurchin

Ideal_Rock
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Hopefully, they'll add on a question about clotting for those getting the J&J vaccine if their investigation shows that it's warranted. I don't remember what questions I was asked now.

ETA: I would like to know what the condition is of the other five who were reported to have unusual blood clots after the J&J vaccine because only one out of nearly 7 MILLION died. Not that any death is insignificant of course but just for reference (and granted, this is just something I found from a quick google search so assuming it's anywhere near accurate):

Odds of getting struck by lightning in your lifetime: 1 in 3,000

Odds of being injured by a toilet this year: 1 in 10,000

Odds of getting killed by a shark: 1 in 3.7 million

Odds of dying from an asteroid or comet: between 1 in 3,000 and 1 in 250,000

Odds of your car hitting a deer in Hawaii, the state where that is least likely to occur: 1 in 6,787
 
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JPie

Ideal_Rock
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Hopefully, they'll add on a question about clotting for those getting the J&J vaccine if their investigation shows that it's warranted. I don't remember what questions I was asked now.

ETA: I would like to know what the condition is of the other five who were reported to have unusual blood clots after the J&J vaccine because only one out of nearly 7 MILLION died. Not that any death is insignificant of course but just for reference (and granted, this is just something I found from a quick google search so assuming it's anywhere near accurate):

Odds of getting struck by lightning in your lifetime: 1 in 3,000

Odds of being injured by a toilet this year: 1 in 10,000

Odds of getting killed by a shark: 1 in 3.7 million

Odds of dying from an asteroid or comet: between 1 in 3,000 and 1 in 250,000

Odds of your car hitting a deer in Hawaii, the state where that is least likely to occur: 1 in 6,787

I think it’s also good to keep in mind that you can monitor for blood clot symptoms and get treated for it. Unlike COVID, you can’t accidentally infect and potentially kill other people, and you are helping everyone return to normalcy by vaccinating.

Also worth pointing out that birth control pills pose a higher clotting risk.
 

kipari

Ideal_Rock
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Hopefully, they'll add on a question about clotting for those getting the J&J vaccine if their investigation shows that it's warranted. I don't remember what questions I was asked now.

ETA: I would like to know what the condition is of the other five who were reported to have unusual blood clots after the J&J vaccine because only one out of nearly 7 MILLION died. Not that any death is insignificant of course but just for reference (and granted, this is just something I found from a quick google search so assuming it's anywhere near accurate):

Odds of getting struck by lightning in your lifetime: 1 in 3,000

Odds of being injured by a toilet this year: 1 in 10,000

Odds of getting killed by a shark: 1 in 3.7 million

Odds of dying from an asteroid or comet: between 1 in 3,000 and 1 in 250,000

Odds of your car hitting a deer in Hawaii, the state where that is least likely to occur: 1 in 6,787


I understand those numbers and the odds seem very low for the US and J&J. However for the Astra Zeneca vaccine it's 9 dead out of 2.7 million total doses in Germany.

If I count the women only, it's 9 dead out of 1.35 million ,(not exact science, I know).

Don't have the data how old the recipients were, but knowing that in the timeframe they used that vaccine in Germany the over 75 y/o were eligible and the very few younger exceptions were health care workers and teachers, the odds of dying from that very rare blood clot gets much more likely for women between 40-60 than I'm comfortable with.

I'd really like to know how many women in that age bracket were vaccinated at all with this. I have 4 friends in total working in vaccination centres and while it's not scientific data, they'd guess that much less than 25 % of the people they vaccinated were under 60.

So when I did my own calculations 2.7 mio total doses : 2 (women) : 4 (age ) : 9 cases)) I came to a risk of 1: 50 000 for me personally. I'm not willing to that risk. Neither is any of my HC friends for themselves, spouses or daughters or sisters.



I'm in no way, shape or form an anti vaxer at all, but I find it sad that this topic has also become so politicised that one cannot seem to point out any risks at all without being labeled (not directed at you at all @seaurchin !!) as such.

I am also well aware of the urgency of the vaccination campaigns re. mutations etc.

This is why in Germany men and women under 60 an still choose to get the AZ vaccine and it's still recommended and given to people over 60.
ETA:
In case anyone is wondering, I have blood clot cases in my family and no I'm not in the birth control pill either after doing the math...
 
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lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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It seems as though for folks who have a history of clotting issues, moderna/Pfizer would be the safest choice
 

Snowdrop13

Ideal_Rock
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@chrono, I should know this since you are a long time PS’er but are you in the U.S.? I’m just curious if screening outside the states is any more or less thorough.

I’ve done some vaccinating in the U.K. and we asked similar questions, nothing specifically about clots. The caution with the AZ vaccine is very recent, though.
 

Jambalaya

Ideal_Rock
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I have seen a reference to three weeks post shot to monitor for signs of clot.

USA Today (so not my ideal source) but at least it quotes the person for the three week window they say to monitor.


Thanks, Elizat. Very helpful. I took some aspirin.
 

lilmosun

Brilliant_Rock
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It seems as though for folks who have a history of clotting issues, moderna/Pfizer would be the safest choice

The type of clot they are seeing is rare and combined with low platelet levels..different than typical blood clots...and in fact, the normal treatment for blood clots (heparin) is actually dangerous for these types of clots.

So it is not clear that history of blood clots puts you more at risk. I've also heard some speculate they wouldn't be surprised that if it's tied to hormone (estrogen) levels given the impact women in a certain age group.

Honestly, if I was woman pre-menopause and/or had a history of blood clots I would probably opt to get one of the mRNA vaccines until they find out more. I know the risks are minuscule but why chance it if there are other alternatives available?

(Given the J&J vaccine is on pause in the US until they learn more, I guess it's a non-issue in deciding for now).
 
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Jambalaya

Ideal_Rock
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Injured by a toilet!!!!!
 

Jambalaya

Ideal_Rock
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I would probably have still got the J&J shot if I'd known this before my shot, because the chances of me getting covid are much, much higher than a blood clot, and covid would be bad for me because I'm severely overweight. I'm taking an aspirin per day and am just glad to get a big slice of protection from the virus. So sick of feeling concerned about all the air I breathe when I go to the supermarket or post office, etc. (Yes, I wear a mask, but the virus is really tiny.)
 

HollyJane

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 7, 2020
Messages
182
I Just got my first Moderna shot yesterday through my county health department and I live in the US. The consent form asked these questions:

1. Are you feeling sick today?
2. In the last 10 days, have you had a COVID-19 test or been told by a healthcare provider or health department to isolate or quarantine at home due to COVID-19 infection or exposure?
3. Have you been treated with antibody therapy for COVID-19 in the past 90 days (3 months)? If yes, when did you receive the last dose? Date:
4. Do you carry an Epi-pen for emergency treatment of anaphylaxis and/or have allergies or reactions to any medications, foods, vaccines or latex?
5. Have you had any vaccines in the past 14 days (2 weeks) including flu shot? If yes, how long ago was your most recent vaccine? Date:
6. Are you pregnant or lactating, or considering becoming pregnant?
7. Do you have cancer, leukemia, HIV/AIDS, a history of autoimmune disease or any other condition that weakens the immune system?
8. Do you take any medications that affect your immune system, such as cortisone, prednisone or other steroids, anticancer drugs, or have you had any radiation treatments?
9. Have you received a previous dose of any COVID-19 vaccine? If yes, which manufacturer’s vaccine did you receive:
10. Did you have any allergy symptoms after a COVID-19 vaccine?

So no questions about clotting risk. When you handed this form into someone they then asked for confirmation about allergies. However, I also heard other workers at this checkpoint ask questions about whether you are prone to fainting.

I answered yes to having a medication allergy and even though it's in the "cillin" family and it is not present in the vaccine they made me wait 30 minutes rather than 15. However the level of monitoring at this particular site is basically non-existent. I said to my husband if I actually had a reaction I'm not sure whose job it is to notice other than perhaps the fellow citizens around me.

This is pretty much the level of screening done at the facility where I got my shots. Monitoring afterwards was 30 minutes. There was an MD or nurse practitioner there the entire time, crash cart at the ready, etc. Very thorough screening and monitoring. USA

But the level of screening and monitoring varies in the USA as well as in other countries. I don't think any one country is doing better than another overall at this point.
 

voce

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
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@seaurchin @YadaYadaYada and others...

A friend shared this link with me, and while I disagree with some of what the microbiologist says, and the title is way too sensational, it does provide at least one quite plausible theory of why the vaccines cause the platelet clots.


In summary, what I remember from the video is that the platelet clots can happen when, inevitably some of the mRNA or DNA genetic code to make the spike protein gets uptaken by the cells lining your blood vessels, causing those cells to make the spike protein and your immune system to attack them, which causes clots. He says that the natural frequency of this occurring in the brain, for example, is 50 people per billion, so without the vaccine 300 people would get this rare kind of clotting every year around the world. He also says that he thinks the reason people get bruises and headaches, faint etc after the second dose of the vaccine is due to blood clots happening in the brain. The people who are most at risk for these blood clots after the people whose immune systems are the most active (i.e. autoimmune disorders), NOT those with pre-existing clotting disorders that have nothing to do with THIS particular type of clotting.

The reason why I think J&J and AstraZeneca seem to be worse is that they are DNA based technology, and the genetic code stays in your system for longer.
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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@seaurchin @YadaYadaYada and others...

A friend shared this link with me, and while I disagree with some of what the microbiologist says, and the title is way too sensational, it does provide at least one quite plausible theory of why the vaccines cause the platelet clots.


In summary, what I remember from the video is that the platelet clots can happen when, inevitably some of the mRNA or DNA genetic code to make the spike protein gets uptaken by the cells lining your blood vessels, causing those cells to make the spike protein and your immune system to attack them, which causes clots. He says that the natural frequency of this occurring in the brain, for example, is 50 people per billion, so without the vaccine 300 people would get this rare kind of clotting every year around the world. He also says that he thinks the reason people get bruises and headaches, faint etc after the second dose of the vaccine is due to blood clots happening in the brain. The people who are most at risk for these blood clots after the people whose immune systems are the most active (i.e. autoimmune disorders), NOT those with pre-existing clotting disorders that have nothing to do with THIS particular type of clotting.

The reason why I think J&J and AstraZeneca seem to be worse is that they are DNA based technology, and the genetic code stays in your system for longer.

Respectfully, this video is nonsense. Its posted on a website that thinks covid isnt actually dangerous and that the vaccines are designed to reduce the population.
 

voce

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
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Respectfully, this video is nonsense. Its posted on a website that thinks covid isnt actually dangerous and that the vaccines are designed to reduce the population.

Honestly, I thought what the guy said about not protecting against respiratory diseases was complete nonsense, because there is oxygen exchange at the lungs with red blood cells in the blood. I listened rather than watched this video on a long drive, and did not pay any attention whatsoever to the website that hosts the video. In truth, I actually quite disliked the guy conducting the interview and did not like the alarmist attitude taken by the scientist.

However, I am the type of person that, even if 90% of what the person says is nonsense, I would seriously consider the 10% that is not. Routinely dismissing 100% of what somebody says based on the unreliability of a much smaller fraction of what they said, is much more common among the general populace, and I try to avoid that mistake.
 

Arcadian

Ideal_Rock
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If you guys aren't getting blood clot question, don't worry it will probably show up soon. We started getting that as a study question. Just like we got asked about facial fillers....lol Just be aware lot of this stuff changes sometimes daily and quite the moving target. So while you guy might not be asked, those in the study are and we're being monitored for any issues and being asked. if there's enough people in the studies (which are ongoing, they add new people all the time) that also have the same issues, then they usually add those to whatever questionnaire the public gets. each vaccine questionnaire is different (of course) Being in the moderna study, they are super stringent about everything. I had a allergic reaction not related to the vaccine and I had to explain myself....lol. Yes they wanted to know everything, how it happened, times it happened, what I took, how much I took, Dr Involved, why didn't I call the center (I didn't because its allergies which to me isn't a big deal). So if I have an allergic event, even though it might not be related I have to keep track and tell them when it happens. For instance, today, I'm having one because stuck my foot into an ant mound. yes I had to report that.
 

YadaYadaYada

Ideal_Rock
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Sorry about the ant mound @Arcadian! I do so enjoy the warmer months but with allergies and insects, they are not without downfalls.
 
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