The great Health Care debate!

[icekid]

Date: 3/17/2009 2:13:12 PM
Author: zhuzhu

No offense Ickid,
I work with MDs day in and day out. Not all, but some of them in training (residents and fellow particularly), whine a lot like you do. I went to school for over 9 years to get my PhD. My pay is a fraction of those MDs who also 'sacrifice their youth' for a higher education, so I can do something I believe in. I do not complaint about the time 'used-up' when I was in school and not making money, nor the fact that I am paid pennies compared to you 'doctors'. It was my choice and I am proud of my work.
I know what MDs' lifestyle is like compared to others who are equally well educated, and frankly I think you are in the wrong profession 'if' you value money more than the purpose of your work, or 'if' you use the compensation package to determine the job satisfaction. Of course it is just my value system and you are prob disagreeing with every word of it. Anyways, unless somebody forced you into medical school to become a doctor, taking responsibility for your own professional choice will prob make life happier.

Wow, I am quite certain that I stated that I knew what I was getting into when I signed up for medical school. Please, explain to me where I do not take responsibility for my choices. Quite rude. Yes, and offensive, too. You have made it quite clear what you think of physicians. Excessive whining? No, I call it the facts.

I find it rather presumptuous that you assume that I value compensation more than what I do. I value the ability to do good for others. I value the ability to provide a good life for myself and my family. I do not value either of these at the expense of my family and my life. However, I will not say that I went into medicine for the sole purpose of helping others. I went into medicine because I value BOTH the ability to provide for my family as well as the ability to make a difference in the lives of others. I enjoy my job. Do I enjoy it 100 hours/week? No. There is no amount of money that you could pay me to make me happy working 100 hours/week. If this does not jive with your values, I cannot say that I care.

I have a lot of friends with PhDs (lovely, hard-working people). They don't carry a quarter of a million dollars in debt. And they certainly don't work nights, weekends, and holidays.

And I assure you that you do not make less money than I do (as if it were a contest).

 

[iluvcarats]

Date: 3/17/2009 2:13:12 PM
Author: zhuzhu

Date: 3/17/2009 1:58:52 PM

Author: icekid

Date: 3/17/2009 1:25:19 PM


Author: zhuzhu


Some ''interesting'' belief flowing around here:



And to those high paid medical doctors who are in fear of pay-cut. Please, MDs were also the ones heavily resistant to HMO system, but now MDs are the ones benefiting financially most from the system.

You MUST be joking. Doctors have taken pay cut after pay cut over the last 20-30 years. Doctors are not the ones who benefit from HMOs. HMOs benefit from HMOs. Please try to glean a little knowledge from someone other than Michael Moore a before you go spouting off about things you don''t know anything about.

Do you really have ANY clue what the life of a physician is like? Do you really have any clue? Oh yeah, we''re all living it up on our yachts (you know, when we''re not working all day and night). I''ve been in my residency training (my first real job FINALLY at the age of 27!) for the past 9 months, following 8 years of schooling. My entire twenties have been devoted to studying and working. There are plenty of weeks when I work 100 hours. That is 2.5 full time jobs. This leaves me what, a couple hours for my husband? Forget about having the child that I would love to add to my family. 8 years of school, $250,000 in debt, ANOTHER 5 years of training, little time with my family, no time to make a family with my husband, taking care of people who are dying, stress, exhaustion, lack of sleep, being so afraid to miss things, having to be mentally present for 30 hours straight with no sleep. Do you want my job? Really? I absolutely knew what I was getting into when I signed up for medical school. These are sacrifices I was willing to make. But I also knew that there would be compensation for all of the years that I put in.

Tell me, zhuzhu, who do you want to be your doctor? The person who graduated at the top of her high school, attended a prestigious university, and then trained at one of the most famous hospitals in the world? Or Joe Schmoe? Because the former will not go to medical school any longer, if there is no incentive to suffer through the process. And believe me, there is a lot of suffering! I will not apologize before I say that, yes, I absolutely believe I deserve to make a reasonable wage at the end of this.

No offense Ickid,

I work with MDs day in and day out. Not all, but some of them in training (residents and fellow particularly), whine a lot like you do. I went to school for over 9 years to get my PhD. My pay is a fraction of those MDs who also ''sacrifice their youth'' for a higher education, so I can do something I believe in. I do not complaint about the time ''used-up'' when I was in school and not making money, nor the fact that I am paid pennies compared to you ''doctors''. It was my choice and I am proud of my work.

I know what MDs'' lifestyle is like compared to others who are equally well educated, and frankly I think you are in the wrong profession ''if'' you value money more than the purpose of your work, or ''if'' you use the compensation package to determine the job satisfaction. Of course it is just my value system and you are prob disagreeing with every word of it. Anyways, unless somebody forced you into medical school to become a doctor, taking responsibility for your own professional choice will prob make life happier.

So let me get this straight.
If you were looking to hire a doctor, your ad would read something like this:

Wanted
Doctor
Must attend 4 years of college
Followed by 4 years of Medical School.
Combined cost approximately $400,000.00
Followed by a residency somewhere between 3-6 years where the match system places you.
Followed by a possible fellowship.
You must take an oath to treat anyone at anytime.
You may never go on strike or you will be put in prison.
You may not try to unite with other physicians to change anything that insurance companies implement because that is collusion.
You must always be accessible, day and night. (Your pager is your BEST FRIEND)
Your patients come before yourself and your family.
You are solely responsible for keeping very sick and very injured people alive.
People can, and often will sue you if they want. In fact, there is an entire profession dedicated to just this.
You will have to pay huge sums of money just to protect yourself from this.
Don''t expect much monetary compensation.
Oh, and NO WHINING

Um, good luck with that!

 

[strmrdr]

To many posts to quote but I think that there should be more programs that in exchange for working in poorly served area or at reduced pay in clinics that the student loans should be turned into grants.
Would a doctor starting out be willing to work for $50k(adjusted based on the cost of living in the area) + $50k a year off their student loans? 5 years at $50k in exchange for being debt free?
I know there are some programs out there but they don''t cover wide enough areas nor specialists.

Something has to be done about the cost of education.
I am all for service in exchange for writing the debt down.

 

[zhuzhu]

Date: 3/17/2009 2:38:50 PM
Author: icekid

Date: 3/17/2009 2:13:12 PM

<

Wow, I am quite certain that I stated that I knew what I was getting into when I signed up for medical school. Please, explain to me where I do not take responsibility for my choices. Quite rude. Yes, and offensive, too. You have made it quite clear what you think of physicians. Excessive whining? No, I call it the facts.


I find it rather presumptuous that you assume that I value compensation more than what I do. I value the ability to do good for others. I value the ability to provide a good life for myself and my family. I do not value either of these at the expense of my family and my life. However, I will not say that I went into medicine for the sole purpose of helping others. I went into medicine because I value BOTH the ability to provide for my family as well as the ability to make a difference in the lives of others. I enjoy my job. Do I enjoy it 100 hours/week? No. There is no amount of money that you could pay me to make me happy working 100 hours/week. If this does not jive with your values, I cannot say that I care.


I have a lot of friends with PhDs (lovely, hard-working people). They don''t carry a quarter of a million dollars in debt. And they certainly don''t work nights, weekends, and holidays.


And I assure you that you do not make less money than I do (as if it were a contest).

Hi Icek,

I do not wish to continue this unproductive conversation about compensation and profession. Besides, I actually find attendings to be quite pleasant people and I admire their ability to help people regain quality of life. The long, long hours you mentioned is shared among trainees of all professions. Yes I worked/work nights, weekends, and holidays when my experiments required me to. If the experiments called for your attention in the lab, you be there and you attend to it. It is not as sexy as attending to patients but it is still work,and I love it.

Just to set the record straight, I do not assume that YOU value compensation more than your work. I stated "I think you are in the wrong profession "if" you value money more than the purpose of your work, or "if" you use the compensation package to determine the job satisfaction.". This statement for me is true for profession of ANY KIND. No amount of compensation can fill a void in a career that one hates.

Zhuzhu

 

[saltymuffin]

iluvcarats and vespergirl, every health care system has its horror stories, and the Canadian one is no different. The media loves to report on horror stories. I hope you realise that the links you posted are not balanced unbiased news reports, but in fact sensationalised horror stories and/or editorials.

I actually tried to speak generally about universal health care - keeping the specifics of an individual system out of it, as they are all very different, but, if you really want more detailed information on the problems with the Canadian system here is a sampler:

1. Underfunding of the system
The Canadian system has been greatly underfunded for about the past 10 years. Politicians found that it is more popular to give tax cuts than increase funding to health care.

2. Shortage of health care professionals in general
Our Univerisites graduate plenty of Doctors and Nurces each year. The main reason for the shortage of doctors and nurses in Canada is that they leave for higher wages in the US (especially specialists). Despite the fact that they graduate with relativley low student debt (compared the the US) we need face the fact that to compete, we have to pay our health care professionals more (see #1).
3. A shortage of "family" doctors.
Your first face of contact in our system is your "family doctor", a general practitioner. He or she refers you to specialists, orders tests, tracks your medical history and keeps your medical records. Due to the overall shortage of doctors (see #2), graduates who remain in the country can afford to be picky and family medicine is not the first choice of most of them. There is none of the glamour associated with specailties, and it is hard work. This has created a severe shortage of family doctors, so finding one can be tough if you are a young healthy individual. If you are elderly, have an ongoing health issue, or are pregnant, you won't have a problem finding a doctor. The numbers of people without a family doctor are deceiving as everyone who doesn't have a family doctors isn't actively looking for one. Many simply don't see the need and rely on walk in clinics for their front line service.
4. Waiting times.
We aren't talking about the time you sit around your Doctor's office waiting for an appointment, but the time it takes to GET that appointment. How quickly you get to see a specialist or have a special test done depends on how urgently you need it. If you are the "least in need" you can wait many weeks or even months for an appointment. The need for this waiting list is due to the shortage of specialists (see #2), or a lack of equipment (see #1). Since it is your family doctor who determines how urgent your need is, there are times when they underestimate your condition, which can lead to horror stories. . . .
5. Shortage of services in small towns and rural areas
Similar to the US, the best doctors generally don't want to work in small towns or at a rural hospital. This makes the above problems that much worse in small places. Most hospital horror stories are found in small places.

I personally have heard no stories about line jumping by the "affluent or connected" - it certainly isn't rampant. But I can see that it could happen, all you would have to do is find a crooked doctor who is willing to say that your situation is urgent and your're in. A problem I am more familiar with is fraud. Millions of Canadian tax dollars are spent every year providing health care to uninsured Americans with fake or stolen ID.

In recent years things have improved. Funding has increased, and maximum waiting times have been implemented. The government realised that only so much "fat" could be cut out of the system before it was going to be run into the ground. And as I have said in other posts, the general consensus was to fix and improve the public system rather than move towards the alternative - so that is the process we currently undertaking.

 

[icekid]

Date: 3/17/2009 3:09:33 PM
Author: zhuzhu

Hi Icek,

I do not wish to continue this unproductive conversation about compensation and profession. Besides, I actually find attendings to be quite pleasant people and I admire their ability to help people regain quality of life. The long, long hours you mentioned is shared among trainees of all professions. Yes I worked/work nights, weekends, and holidays when my experiments required me to. If the experiments called for your attention in the lab, you be there and you attend to it. It is not as sexy as attending to patients but it is still work,and I love it.

Just to set the record straight, I do not assume that YOU value compensation more than your work. I stated ''I think you are in the wrong profession ''if'' you value money more than the purpose of your work, or ''if'' you use the compensation package to determine the job satisfaction.''. This statement for me is true for profession of ANY KIND. No amount of compensation can fill a void in a career that one hates.

Zhuzhu

This is going to be my last post in this ridiculous vein, but give me a break. No, not all professions require the amount of training hours that medicine does. Are you serious?

Funny how the attending physicians are pleasant when they''re being paid a wage in accordance with their educational background and responsibility... and not working as slaves. The current residents and fellows are scared to death that we''re not going to be able to pay our loans. But it''s all whining, anyway.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 3/17/2009 3:14:31 PM
Author: saltymuffin

iluvcarats and vespergirl, every health care system has its horror stories, and the Canadian one is no different. The media loves to report on horror stories. I hope you realise that the links you posted are not balanced unbiased news reports, but in fact sensationalised horror stories and/or editorials.

I totally disagree with this statement.

My article was from the New York Times, one of the most respected newspapers in the world, and it is actually a more liberal-leaning paper according to some, so if that were the case, they would have more of a reason to glamorize socialized medicine. And it did not come from the editorial section.

 

[icekid]

Date: 3/17/2009 3:14:31 PM
Author: saltymuffin


I personally have heard no stories about line jumping by the ''affluent or connected'' - it certainly isn''t rampant. But I can see that it could happen, all you would have to do is find a crooked doctor who is willing to say that your situation is urgent and your''re in. A problem I am more familiar with is fraud. Millions of Canadian tax dollars are spent every year providing health care to uninsured Americans with fake or stolen ID.

In recent years things have improved. Funding has increased, and maximum waiting times have been implemented. The government realised that only so much ''fat'' could be cut out of the system before it was going to be run into the ground. And as I have said in other posts, the general consensus was to fix and improve the public system rather than move towards the alternative - so that is the process we currently undertaking.

salty- I had no idea this was going on! It''s really unfortunate, because it''s taking away from care for actual Canadians.

Physician shortage is a big problem up north, it seems. I know Canada is on the verge of utopia and all (just teasing, I love Canada), but they cannot keep up with the demand for care. I grew up near Buffalo (just across the border), and our friends from the Ontario are currently advertising in attempt to attract American doctors to work up there! After I saw the ads, I did a bit of searching and apparently Canada is actually claiming a net gain of physicians moving in/out of Canada for quite a while, so it does not seem that the problem is that doctors are leaving for greener pastures in the States.

I don''t think there will ever be a way to keep the connected folks from getting faster care when they want it. As a doctor, I have friends in all fields. If something came up within my family, I would not hesitate to give them a call to get things done more efficiently

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/17/2009 1:56:38 PM
Author: vespergirl

I agree with this, which is why my husband and I don''t smoke, get 30 min. of cardio 5 days a week, and don''t overeat. My son is also a healthy weight and is very active. I value my health, which is why I take care of it.


However, currently 62% of American adults are overweight or obese, and 34% of children are, which causes heart disease and diabetes, and 20% of Americans smoke cigarettes, which causes an array of cancers. The overweight and smokers are making themselves sick with preventable diseases, and their lazy attitudes towards their own health is costing everyone. Just getting access to free medical care isn''t going to correct those behaviors.


Here is a 2002 study titled ''The Effects Of Obesity, Smoking, And Drinking On Medical Problems And Costs'':

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/reprint/21/2/245.pdf


Here is an excerpt:

Obesity has roughly the same association with chronic health conditions as does twenty years’ aging; this greatly exceeds the associations of smoking or problem drinking. Utilization effects mirrors the health effects. Obesity is associated with a 36 percent increase in inpatient and outpatient spending and a 77 percent increase in medications, compared with a 21 percent increase in inpatient and outpatient spending and a 28 percent increase in medications for current smokers and smaller effects for problem drinkers. Nevertheless, the latter two groups have received more consistent attention in recent decades in clinical practice and public health policy.

So what is the answer more weight based discrimination?
Frankly it should be legal to shoot anyone with a tazer who comments about another person weight.

It was fun when someone would comment about my weight when I was working patrol and walking about 30miles in a shift.
If you wanted at a regular pace you were walking for 12 hours strait but if you walked fast you could sit down for 10min an hour.
An hour in and they were dieing on their feet it was fun to ask them if they wanted to sit down and take a breather, then say to bad don''t have time and take off at a fast walk and leave them behind in the middle of a chemical plant.
After one scrawny guy guy in his 20s had a heart attack they put 4 people per shift so it was only 18 miles, 1.5 hours walking and then 1.5 hours in the office. That was gravy until I got a blood clot and PE and had to quit.

 

[saltymuffin]

Date: 3/17/2009 3:25:46 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 3/17/2009 3:14:31 PM
Author: saltymuffin




iluvcarats and vespergirl, every health care system has its horror stories, and the Canadian one is no different. The media loves to report on horror stories. I hope you realise that the links you posted are not balanced unbiased news reports, but in fact sensationalised horror stories and/or editorials.

I totally disagree with this statement.

My article was from the New York Times, one of the most respected newspapers in the world, and it is actually a more liberal-leaning paper according to some, so if that were the case, they would have more of a reason to glamorize socialized medicine. And it did not come from the editorial section.

Vespergirl, I appologise - you article wasn't sensationalised, and was a factual news article (although I still question the widespread line-jumping comment

). I unfairly grouped it with iluvcarats links as I read them all at once. I was also a bit taken aback at all the sudden posting of articles on the problems with the Canadian system as I had never claimed that our system was perfect.

What I should have said is that one article doesn't provide the whole story, and you need more information to really get an understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of a system. It was an article about the problems in the system (and a fair thing to report on). But to see all sides of an issue, you would also have to read the "good news" as well. A single story about the problems with the US system wouldn't provide a fair overview of your system either.

 

[trillionaire]

Date: 3/17/2009 1:56:38 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 3/17/2009 1:25:19 PM

Author: zhuzhu

Some ''interesting'' belief flowing around here:


1) Some Americans are lazy and they take advantage of the other hard-working ones!!

2) America government is bad bad fox and can NOT do anything possibly right or help its own citizens....Do no trust anything they do or any system they implement!

3) So what so many other countries have government-sponsored healthcare system? Some of them complaint about lacking good care anyways - so they can''t possibly that good!


1+2+3 does NOT make it alright for those of us who currently (you never know about tomorrow)have good insurance to let the existing system continues to deny healthcare for the rest of us! Can we please all put aside our self-centered, self-preserving heart and look hard into what humanity means?


And to those high paid medical doctors who are in fear of pay-cut. Please, MDs were also the ones heavily resistant to HMO system, but now MDs are the ones benefiting financially most from the system.


What matters most is the future health of our population, and if we continue to turn away from those who are victims of the existing system, then very soon we will be the sickest nation and least productive one of all. Health is the single one most important investment of all. Let us give everybody the right to access care.

I agree with this, which is why my husband and I don''t smoke, get 30 min. of cardio 5 days a week, and don''t overeat. My son is also a healthy weight and is very active. I value my health, which is why I take care of it.


However, currently 62% of American adults are overweight or obese, and 34% of children are, which causes heart disease and diabetes, and 20% of Americans smoke cigarettes, which causes an array of cancers. The overweight and smokers are making themselves sick with preventable diseases, and their lazy attitudes towards their own health is costing everyone. Just getting access to free medical care isn''t going to correct those behaviors.


Here is a 2002 study titled ''The Effects Of Obesity, Smoking, And Drinking On Medical Problems And Costs'':

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/reprint/21/2/245.pdf


Here is an excerpt:

Obesity has roughly the same association with chronic health conditions as does twenty years’ aging; this greatly exceeds the associations of smoking or problem drinking. Utilization effects mirrors the health effects. Obesity is associated with a 36 percent increase in inpatient and outpatient spending and a 77 percent increase in medications, compared with a 21 percent increase in inpatient and outpatient spending and a 28 percent increase in medications for current smokers and smaller effects for problem drinkers. Nevertheless, the latter two groups have received more consistent attention in recent decades in clinical practice and public health policy.

universal coverage could sure go a long way towards health education and preventative care...

My mother''s weight was up. She went to the doctor, he/she ran the numbers, and he painted a not so pretty picture for my mom. She went home, changed her diet, and lost 20lbs before her next doctors appointment. Her numbers were perfect, and she went off of some meds. If she had not gone to the doctor, or had been unable to, who knows if/when she would have addressed the problem. Access to doctors IS important for health outcomes, even things like weight management and diet!

 

[saltymuffin]

Date: 3/17/2009 3:26:22 PM
Author: icekid

Date: 3/17/2009 3:14:31 PM
Author: saltymuffin



I personally have heard no stories about line jumping by the ''affluent or connected'' - it certainly isn''t rampant. But I can see that it could happen, all you would have to do is find a crooked doctor who is willing to say that your situation is urgent and your''re in. A problem I am more familiar with is fraud. Millions of Canadian tax dollars are spent every year providing health care to uninsured Americans with fake or stolen ID.

In recent years things have improved. Funding has increased, and maximum waiting times have been implemented. The government realised that only so much ''fat'' could be cut out of the system before it was going to be run into the ground. And as I have said in other posts, the general consensus was to fix and improve the public system rather than move towards the alternative - so that is the process we currently undertaking.

salty- I had no idea this was going on! It''s really unfortunate, because it''s taking away from care for actual Canadians.

Physician shortage is a big problem up north, it seems. I know Canada is on the verge of utopia and all (just teasing, I love Canada), but they cannot keep up with the demand for care. I grew up near Buffalo (just across the border), and our friends from the Ontario are currently advertising in attempt to attract American doctors to work up there! After I saw the ads, I did a bit of searching and apparently Canada is actually claiming a net gain of physicians moving in/out of Canada for quite a while, so it does not seem that the problem is that doctors are leaving for greener pastures in the States.

I don''t think there will ever be a way to keep the connected folks from getting faster care when they want it. As a doctor, I have friends in all fields. If something came up within my family, I would not hesitate to give them a call to get things done more efficiently

icekid,
A net "gain" of doctors is great news, but we still have such a shortage that there is along way to go. We definitely do still loose a lot of "home grown and educated" doctors to the high salarys in the US (they call it the "brain-drain"). Where we are ''gaining'' our Doctors from is immigrants from other countries. The government has made the visa process easier for doctors in an attempt to attract them.

 

[saltymuffin]

Date: 3/17/2009 4:06:32 PM
Author: trillionaire

universal coverage could sure go a long way towards health education and preventative care...

My mother''s weight was up. She went to the doctor, he/she ran the numbers, and he painted a not so pretty picture for my mom. She went home, changed her diet, and lost 20lbs before her next doctors appointment. Her numbers were perfect, and she went off of some meds. If she had not gone to the doctor, or had been unable to, who knows if/when she would have addressed the problem. Access to doctors IS important for health outcomes, even things like weight management and diet!

Absolutely! Preventative medicine is a huge cost saver. I myself visited a nutritionist recently due to some poor test results, and learned a huge amount.

My mother''s breast cancer was found during a standard annual mammogram, she only had to have a short round of radiation treatment, and has been healthy the 15 years since. My father''s bipass surgery didn''t stem from a heart attack, but from tests ordered at his annual physical.

I haven''t seen SICKO, but did see a "real" documentary on doctors in Cuba. It was very interesting. A main part of their health care program is that every citizen sees a doctor twice a year (no choice in the matter - it is Cuba!). Doctors travel all over making sure that everyone gets their twice yearly appointment. It is obviously expensive, but they catch so many things early this way that they are able to eliminate a lot of costly hospital stays.

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 3/17/2009 3:26:22 PM
Author: icekid

Date: 3/17/2009 3:14:31 PM

Author: saltymuffin



I personally have heard no stories about line jumping by the ''affluent or connected'' - it certainly isn''t rampant. But I can see that it could happen, all you would have to do is find a crooked doctor who is willing to say that your situation is urgent and your''re in. A problem I am more familiar with is fraud. Millions of Canadian tax dollars are spent every year providing health care to uninsured Americans with fake or stolen ID.

In recent years things have improved. Funding has increased, and maximum waiting times have been implemented. The government realised that only so much ''fat'' could be cut out of the system before it was going to be run into the ground. And as I have said in other posts, the general consensus was to fix and improve the public system rather than move towards the alternative - so that is the process we currently undertaking.

salty- I had no idea this was going on! It''s really unfortunate, because it''s taking away from care for actual Canadians.

And wait until it comes here. The throngs of illegals who''ve made an art form of bilking the welfare system for 40 years will surely have a field day when they realize they no longer have to wait in the ER all night for a stuffy nose. Now they''ll be able to sit in a nice cushy office, read a few magazines, see a GP and keep someone else waiting who actually contributes to the system.

 

[trillionaire]

Date: 3/17/2009 6:24:44 PM
Author: beebrisk

Date: 3/17/2009 3:26:22 PM

Author: icekid

Date: 3/17/2009 3:14:31 PM


Author: saltymuffin




I personally have heard no stories about line jumping by the ''affluent or connected'' - it certainly isn''t rampant. But I can see that it could happen, all you would have to do is find a crooked doctor who is willing to say that your situation is urgent and your''re in. A problem I am more familiar with is fraud. Millions of Canadian tax dollars are spent every year providing health care to uninsured Americans with fake or stolen ID.

In recent years things have improved. Funding has increased, and maximum waiting times have been implemented. The government realised that only so much ''fat'' could be cut out of the system before it was going to be run into the ground. And as I have said in other posts, the general consensus was to fix and improve the public system rather than move towards the alternative - so that is the process we currently undertaking.

salty- I had no idea this was going on! It''s really unfortunate, because it''s taking away from care for actual Canadians.

And wait until it comes here. The throngs of illegals who''ve made an art form of bilking the welfare system for 40 years will surely have a field day when they realize they no longer have to wait in the ER all night for a stuffy nose. Now they''ll be able to sit in a nice cushy office, read a few magazines, see a GP and keep someone else waiting who actually contributes to the system.

The funny thing is, our current system is so inefficient that this would SAVE us money!

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 3/17/2009 12:56:21 PM
Author: saltymuffin

Date: 3/17/2009 11:26:01 AM
Author: arjunajane

Seeing as I live in what some on this thread may refer to as a socialist H.C system, I would like to dispel a couple of the myths that keep getting said here:

- We don't have to wait forever to see a specialist. As far as I know, it's just like booking a regular GP appt (~ a weeks notice average).
- People do not get refused HC. If you choose to purchase private cover, than you get to select your surgeon, your cushier hospital etc. But if you go public, you still get treated, you just don't have as much freedom of choice.
- we don't kill off the elderly and chronically ill

- the government is not in our homes, telling us what to do - really, grow up with this view

I'm sorry, I don't want to sound patronizing, but I know which one I would choose.

No, I am not saying its a perfect system - I don't think any country in the world can claim that.
But I do belive a mixture of public and private IS the answer, with an emphasis on HC for All, and Choice.

Thanks for chiming in arjunajane, I am really interested in the hybrid systems that Australia and several other countries have. Everything I have heard about the Dutch system sounds amazing. I also like your 'myths'. I have a few to add:

- There isn't only one way to implement universal health care.

- Just because you have a public system doesn't mean that doctors have to be under the thumb of some burocrat. Most doctors in Canada are self-employed. They are paid by the gov't on a fee per service basis. They don't have a burocrat looking over their shoulder questioing their professional opion. From what I have heard, insurance companys in the US seem to have more power over treatment options than any gov't burocrat does here.

- Prescription drug coverage is not part of the Canadian system. You pay for your own drugs, or get private insurance to cover it. The reason some drugs cost less here is not due to 'buying in bulk', but because of gov't regulation that limits the price of a drug to the median price that they are sold for elsewhere in developed countries. They also forbid charging different amounts to the insured and uninsured.

Hi saltymuffin, no worries.
I also agree with your "myths" - especially about Dr's not being under the thumb of govt - I have never heard of any anectdotal evidence of this, and I work in H.C every day (and trust me, people will complain about anything!, lol).

I also believe Dr's are under more pressure from private Co's than they would be with a mixed system.

I am not here to criticize, as I understand this is a sensitive issue - but I am quite surprised at alot of the attitudes in this thread - where folks are admitting," yes our system is very broken, but we still don't want to make it like yours. "

Honestly, patients having to go the ER for a cold?! In find that quite unbelievable

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Well, I am going by the parts of medicine in our country that are in a public system. The military and VA, and doctors are micromanaged by administrators. If those 2 systems would change in our own country, than I would be open to more government involvement. But I am afraid here, it would be more of the same.

I also wanted to point out that the training of doctors in other countries is not a rigorous as it is here, you don''t have as many years of school, and we are the only country to have an 80 hour work week. They are thinking of making work hours more strict, but all the program directors say the same thing. If that happens, we are extending the length of training. Great, 4+ years of below minimum wage (if you work out our salary by the hour) to be a generalist who has to see a patient every 15 minutes, 20-30 patients a day to even make a profit? And than get multiple complaints for the wait that patients have? Oh yeah, and a nurse practitioner''s can do that without going to residency??? Why am I even doing all of this???

As Icekid said, if you want to pay doctor''s less, than fine. But expect the best and brightest to go into another field (it is already happening), and expect those that do go into to not accept the kind of training we have.

I am open to more ideas, but I am for reform, not a completely government run system.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Date: 3/17/2009 6:24:44 PM
Author: beebrisk

Date: 3/17/2009 3:26:22 PM

Author: icekid

Date: 3/17/2009 3:14:31 PM


Author: saltymuffin




I personally have heard no stories about line jumping by the 'affluent or connected' - it certainly isn't rampant. But I can see that it could happen, all you would have to do is find a crooked doctor who is willing to say that your situation is urgent and your're in. A problem I am more familiar with is fraud. Millions of Canadian tax dollars are spent every year providing health care to uninsured Americans with fake or stolen ID.

In recent years things have improved. Funding has increased, and maximum waiting times have been implemented. The government realised that only so much 'fat' could be cut out of the system before it was going to be run into the ground. And as I have said in other posts, the general consensus was to fix and improve the public system rather than move towards the alternative - so that is the process we currently undertaking.

salty- I had no idea this was going on! It's really unfortunate, because it's taking away from care for actual Canadians.

And wait until it comes here. The throngs of illegals who've made an art form of bilking the welfare system for 40 years will surely have a field day when they realize they no longer have to wait in the ER all night for a stuffy nose. Now they'll be able to sit in a nice cushy office, read a few magazines, see a GP and keep someone else waiting who actually contributes to the system.

That is already happening (in the ED), I live in SD, and are only 20 miles from the border. A long wait in an ER is worth it for proper medical care for these people. In fact, they are some of the most grateful and appreciative parents I see. They know how much worse it can be.

 

[trillionaire]

Date: 3/17/2009 6:24:44 PM
Author: beebrisk

Date: 3/17/2009 3:26:22 PM

Author: icekid

Date: 3/17/2009 3:14:31 PM


Author: saltymuffin




I personally have heard no stories about line jumping by the ''affluent or connected'' - it certainly isn''t rampant. But I can see that it could happen, all you would have to do is find a crooked doctor who is willing to say that your situation is urgent and your''re in. A problem I am more familiar with is fraud. Millions of Canadian tax dollars are spent every year providing health care to uninsured Americans with fake or stolen ID.

In recent years things have improved. Funding has increased, and maximum waiting times have been implemented. The government realised that only so much ''fat'' could be cut out of the system before it was going to be run into the ground. And as I have said in other posts, the general consensus was to fix and improve the public system rather than move towards the alternative - so that is the process we currently undertaking.

salty- I had no idea this was going on! It''s really unfortunate, because it''s taking away from care for actual Canadians.

And wait until it comes here. The throngs of illegals who''ve made an art form of bilking the welfare system for 40 years will surely have a field day when they realize they no longer have to wait in the ER all night for a stuffy nose. Now they''ll be able to sit in a nice cushy office, read a few magazines, see a GP and keep someone else waiting who actually contributes to the system.

I think the anecdotes about people crossing the border to get care just highlights two things:

1.) Health care is a basic need
2.) It is human nature to do anything you can to take care of your family

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 3/17/2009 10:38:54 PM
Author: trillionaire

Date: 3/17/2009 6:24:44 PM

Author: beebrisk

Date: 3/17/2009 3:26:22 PM


Author: icekid

Date: 3/17/2009 3:14:31 PM



Author: saltymuffin





I personally have heard no stories about line jumping by the ''affluent or connected'' - it certainly isn''t rampant. But I can see that it could happen, all you would have to do is find a crooked doctor who is willing to say that your situation is urgent and your''re in. A problem I am more familiar with is fraud. Millions of Canadian tax dollars are spent every year providing health care to uninsured Americans with fake or stolen ID.

In recent years things have improved. Funding has increased, and maximum waiting times have been implemented. The government realised that only so much ''fat'' could be cut out of the system before it was going to be run into the ground. And as I have said in other posts, the general consensus was to fix and improve the public system rather than move towards the alternative - so that is the process we currently undertaking.

salty- I had no idea this was going on! It''s really unfortunate, because it''s taking away from care for actual Canadians.

And wait until it comes here. The throngs of illegals who''ve made an art form of bilking the welfare system for 40 years will surely have a field day when they realize they no longer have to wait in the ER all night for a stuffy nose. Now they''ll be able to sit in a nice cushy office, read a few magazines, see a GP and keep someone else waiting who actually contributes to the system.

I think the anecdotes about people crossing the border to get care just highlights two things:


1.) Health care is a basic need

2.) It is human nature to do anything you can to take care of your family

Are you suggesting that this country would be well-served by becoming the free clinic to the world?

 

[trillionaire]

Date: 3/18/2009 1:52:43 AM
Author: beebrisk

Date: 3/17/2009 10:38:54 PM

Author: trillionaire


I think the anecdotes about people crossing the border to get care just highlights two things:



1.) Health care is a basic need


2.) It is human nature to do anything you can to take care of your family

Are you suggesting that this country would be well-served by becoming the free clinic to the world?

I fail to see how you derive your logic. I suggested that the US would be well-served as a free clinic to the world about as much as I suggested that Canada would... which is to say, not at all.

I stated two things, very clearly. No need to read between the lines.

 

[trillionaire]

Date: 3/17/2009 3:01:27 PM
Author: iluvcarats


So let me get this straight.

If you were looking to hire a doctor, your ad would read something like this:


Wanted

Doctor
Must attend 4 years of college
Followed by 4 years of Medical School.
Combined cost approximately $400,000.00
Followed by a residency somewhere between 3-6 years where the match system places you.
Followed by a possible fellowship.
You must take an oath to treat anyone at anytime.
You may never go on strike or you will be put in prison.
You may not try to unite with other physicians to change anything that insurance companies implement because that is collusion.
You must always be accessible, day and night. (Your pager is your BEST FRIEND)
Your patients come before yourself and your family.
You are solely responsible for keeping very sick and very injured people alive.
People can, and often will sue you if they want. In fact, there is an entire profession dedicated to just this.
You will have to pay huge sums of money just to protect yourself from this.
Don't expect much monetary compensation.
Oh, and NO WHINING

Um, good luck with that!

We are constrained primarily by our lack of imagination...


Free med school anyone?

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/12/free-medical-school-for-students-who.html

of course, we could always just bring in more students from China and India to populate our med schools, since they will happily take the training and compensation without complaint... "Oh, and NO WHINING

Um, good luck with that!"

see... there are LOTS of alternatives!

 

[iluvcarats]

Date: 3/18/2009 2:16:16 AM
Author: trillionaire

Date: 3/17/2009 3:01:27 PM

Author: iluvcarats



So let me get this straight.


If you were looking to hire a doctor, your ad would read something like this:



Wanted


Doctor

Must attend 4 years of college

Followed by 4 years of Medical School.

Combined cost approximately $400,000.00

Followed by a residency somewhere between 3-6 years where the match system places you.

Followed by a possible fellowship.

You must take an oath to treat anyone at anytime.

You may never go on strike or you will be put in prison.

You may not try to unite with other physicians to change anything that insurance companies implement because that is collusion.

You must always be accessible, day and night. (Your pager is your BEST FRIEND)

Your patients come before yourself and your family.

You are solely responsible for keeping very sick and very injured people alive.

People can, and often will sue you if they want. In fact, there is an entire profession dedicated to just this.

You will have to pay huge sums of money just to protect yourself from this.

Don''t expect much monetary compensation.

Oh, and NO WHINING

Um, good luck with that!

We are constrained primarily by our lack of imagination...



Free med school anyone?


http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2008/12/free-medical-school-for-students-who.html


of course, we could always just bring in more students from China and India to populate our med schools, since they will happily take the training and compensation without complaint... ''Oh, and NO WHINING

Um, good luck with that!''


see... there are LOTS of alternatives!

You have obviously only been on the receiving end of medical care.
I suppose we could import "more students from China and India to populate our med schools, since they will happily take the training and compensation without complaint." After all, we have already outsourced all of our manufacturing there because it is cheaper, and lost thousands of American jobs. We might as well hire them to give us less expensive healthcare. I mean, as long as it''s cheaper. Very "creative" and dare I say Capitalistc! Let''s socialize medicine by bringing in cheaper labor from other countries!

And we already owe China 2 trillion dollars anyway.
Of course, if someone was to suggest importing students from other countries to work at Walmart or General Motors because it was cheaper, and well, "they''d at least be appreciative to have a job", I have a feeling it would meet with some resistance. Sort of like the Mexicans who cross the border every day illegally, and are willing to work for wages that Americans won''t. (That is not ok)

So when you are rushed into the ER having a heart attack and everyone around you speaks English as a second language - Good luck with that

But on a positive note, the malpractice lawyers will be thriving.
Unless of course the government makes a new rule that you can''t sue government doctors.
Because when they are in charge rules can be made and broken and changed and broken and made and broken.....
This might just work in this new and fair society that you are planning.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/18/2009 8:26:27 AM
Author: iluvcarats

So when you are rushed into the ER having a heart attack and everyone around you speaks English as a second language - Good luck with that

That would be different from now in what way?

 

[tlh]

Date: 3/18/2009 10:54:08 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 3/18/2009 8:26:27 AM
Author: iluvcarats

So when you are rushed into the ER having a heart attack and everyone around you speaks English as a second language - Good luck with that

That would be different from now in what way?

I think she was referring to the Dr''s and not the patients

 

[iluvcarats]

Date: 3/18/2009 11:17:45 AM
Author: tlh

Date: 3/18/2009 10:54:08 AM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 3/18/2009 8:26:27 AM

Author: iluvcarats


So when you are rushed into the ER having a heart attack and everyone around you speaks English as a second language - Good luck with that

That would be different from now in what way?

I think she was referring to the Dr''s and not the patients

Thank you for clarifying TLH, that is what I meant.

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 3/17/2009 1:56:38 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 3/17/2009 1:25:19 PM

Author: zhuzhu

What matters most is the future health of our population, and if we continue to turn away from those who are victims of the existing system, then very soon we will be the sickest nation and least productive one of all. Health is the single one most important investment of all. Let us give everybody the right to access care.

I agree with this, which is why my husband and I don't smoke, get 30 min. of cardio 5 days a week, and don't overeat. My son is also a healthy weight and is very active. I value my health, which is why I take care of it.


However, currently 62% of American adults are overweight or obese, and 34% of children are, which causes heart disease and diabetes, and 20% of Americans smoke cigarettes, which causes an array of cancers. The overweight and smokers are making themselves sick with preventable diseases, and their lazy attitudes towards their own health is costing everyone. Just getting access to free medical care isn't going to correct those behaviors.


Here is a 2002 study titled 'The Effects Of Obesity, Smoking, And Drinking On Medical Problems And Costs':

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/reprint/21/2/245.pdf


Here is an excerpt:

Obesity has roughly the same association with chronic health conditions as does twenty years’ aging; this greatly exceeds the associations of smoking or problem drinking. Utilization effects mirrors the health effects. Obesity is associated with a 36 percent increase in inpatient and outpatient spending and a 77 percent increase in medications, compared with a 21 percent increase in inpatient and outpatient spending and a 28 percent increase in medications for current smokers and smaller effects for problem drinkers. Nevertheless, the latter two groups have received more consistent attention in recent decades in clinical practice and public health policy.

Wow Vespergirl, your sense of entitlement (and immortality!) is astonishing.

You are aware that people that do 5 days of cardio a week, who don't smoke, and who eat healthily still get serious illnesses, but I suppose you just don't care, because your husband's job provides your family with good health insurance.

When I was a kid, my father taught me that not everyone has had the same advantages that I had starting out in life, and that is why it is important to share and be charitable. My mother is one of those people--she grew up begging for food, and she also instilled the same concept of charity in me.

In this thread, I am talking about Single Payer. Single Payer gives everyone the same access to healthcare. Perhaps, you Vesper feel that you deserve better, because your husband, as you so delicately put, "makes money hand over fist."

Date: 3/14/2009 8:03:51 PM
Author: vespergirl
My husband's company has been making money hand over fist for the past 10 years. They are an electrical contractor that handles large govt. contracts, and also private contracts. I think part of the reason that they do so well, in fact, is because they are not a union shop.

I'm sure the non union workers and gov't contracts help him out a great deal.

Put yourself in someone else's shoes--and not those of your immigrant parents fleeing a totalitarian regime. Put yourself in the shoes of, let's see, a family of four with an injured mother and a laid off father who lost all health benefits. Say one of the children is diagnosed with a serious illness like leukemia. Would you have a problem accepting assistance from the government? I seriously doubt it.

Or, don't. Just keep on posting your dubious statistics and whistle on your way to the doctor. I hope you don't have to wait too long in the waiting area--hope they have some good magazines this time.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/18/2009 11:17:45 AM
Author: tlh

Date: 3/18/2009 10:54:08 AM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 3/18/2009 8:26:27 AM

Author: iluvcarats


So when you are rushed into the ER having a heart attack and everyone around you speaks English as a second language - Good luck with that

That would be different from now in what way?

I think she was referring to the Dr''s and not the patients

Here it is the doctors and nurses.
Being fluent in a 2nd language is a hiring plus for an ER nurse so there is a lot of nurses who English is not their first language.
A lot of the ER Doctors are from Pakistan as are a lot of doctors in my area.
Good docs for the most part but some are hard to understand sometimes.
The last time my sis-in-law was in the ER I noticed there were fewer than there used to be so some have moved on but the 2 trauma docs on duty were from Pakistan or at least had the accent.
I know one of them nice guy, great doc and speaks 7 languages and was born in Pakistan.
I had him for a doc when I was in there about 6-7 years ago.

 

[swimmer]

Thank you Coati for expressing what some of us are not eloquent enough to type.

Karl, Yes, it is the same here. The best teaching hospitals seem to have more foreign born students than native. Then again, we should all remember that the US will be a minority majority country by 2050. link

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 3/18/2009 11:30:27 AM
Author: coatimundi

Date: 3/17/2009 1:56:38 PM

Author: vespergirl

Date: 3/17/2009 1:25:19 PM


Author: zhuzhu


What matters most is the future health of our population, and if we continue to turn away from those who are victims of the existing system, then very soon we will be the sickest nation and least productive one of all. Health is the single one most important investment of all. Let us give everybody the right to access care.

I agree with this, which is why my husband and I don''t smoke, get 30 min. of cardio 5 days a week, and don''t overeat. My son is also a healthy weight and is very active. I value my health, which is why I take care of it.



However, currently 62% of American adults are overweight or obese, and 34% of children are, which causes heart disease and diabetes, and 20% of Americans smoke cigarettes, which causes an array of cancers. The overweight and smokers are making themselves sick with preventable diseases, and their lazy attitudes towards their own health is costing everyone. Just getting access to free medical care isn''t going to correct those behaviors.



Here is a 2002 study titled ''The Effects Of Obesity, Smoking, And Drinking On Medical Problems And Costs'':


http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/reprint/21/2/245.pdf



Here is an excerpt:


Obesity has roughly the same association with chronic health conditions as does twenty years’ aging; this greatly exceeds the associations of smoking or problem drinking. Utilization effects mirrors the health effects. Obesity is associated with a 36 percent increase in inpatient and outpatient spending and a 77 percent increase in medications, compared with a 21 percent increase in inpatient and outpatient spending and a 28 percent increase in medications for current smokers and smaller effects for problem drinkers. Nevertheless, the latter two groups have received more consistent attention in recent decades in clinical practice and public health policy.

Wow Vespergirl, your sense of entitlement (and immortality!) is astonishing.


You are aware that people that do 5 days of cardio a week, who don''t smoke, and who eat healthily still get serious illnesses, but I suppose you just don''t care, because your husband''s job provides your family with good health insurance.


When I was a kid, my father taught me that not everyone has had the same advantages that I had starting out in life, and that is why it is important to share and be charitable. My mother is one of those people--she grew up begging for food, and she also instilled the same concept of charity in me.


In this thread, I am talking about Single Payer. Single Payer gives everyone the same access to healthcare. Perhaps, you Vesper feel that you deserve better, because your husband, as you so delicately put, ''makes money hand over fist.''

Date: 3/14/2009 8:03:51 PM

Author: vespergirl

My husband''s company has been making money hand over fist for the past 10 years. They are an electrical contractor that handles large govt. contracts, and also private contracts. I think part of the reason that they do so well, in fact, is because they are not a union shop.

I''m sure the non union workers and gov''t contracts help him out a great deal.


Put yourself in someone else''s shoes--and not those of your immigrant parents fleeing a totalitarian regime. Put yourself in the shoes of, let''s see, a family of four with an injured mother and a laid off father who lost all health benefits. Say one of the children is diagnosed with a serious illness like leukemia. Would you have a problem accepting assistance from the government? I seriously doubt it.


Or, don''t. Just keep on posting your dubious statistics and whistle on your way to the doctor. I hope you don''t have to wait too long in the waiting area--hope they have some good magazines this time.

Coati

I''m all for criticizing "ideas" around here, and I''ve done plenty of it myself, but you really are crossing the line by calling a particular individual "immoral" and "entitled". Really out of line.

(And weren''t you so incensed that you took leave of this thread a few days ago?)