The Day After, Reflections

[Shiny_pretty_things]

I appreciate those few who responded to me and courteously - thank you. No response from the original poster though I see- I suppose thats one way to deal with dissenting views.


I have seriously debated posting this and I really hope I don't regret it but I realise that the reason this is so much on my mind (and that of my family and friends) is because we don’t understand why anyone would vote for someone who seems to be so patently a bad man - a man who in many ways embodies the worst of humanity rather than the best. And make no mistake, many countries elect bad men and mine is one of them. The difference here is how powerful your country is and how much the decisions that you make impact the rest of the world whether we like it or not.

So I thought it best to ask you, as Americans and especially the people who voted for your president elect for some clarification rather than making assumptions. Let make this clear, this is not me asking for you to justify yourself, simply asking for clarification for myself, my friends, family and co-workers who truly do not understand. You obviously don’t have to answer me, he is your president elect after all but surely clarity and reason are always good things, particularly in a time of change and I would appreciate reasoned polite responses if you're up for answering me.


I have noted a few things:

When people post the issues that they have with the president elect, responders often refer to past presidents wrong doing - please don’t do that if you’re good enough to answer me, as that doesnt actually address the issue raised. Two wrongs don’t make a right and saying that yes this is wrong but someone else did this wrong, doesn't address the initial wrong or clarify why people are okay with it.

Despite the fact that people who didn’t voted for the president elect often seeming to acknowledge that they didn’t realise how much pain half the country was in, those who support the president elect, don't seem to have acknowledged the pain and fear of those who did not support him. I see a lot of posts saying 'I’m sorry you feel that way' but no posts saying, 'I empathise, I understand'. I see a lot of 'Well, this is where we are now' and 'lets get on with it' and some fairly patronising posts about how people should deal with distraught children but I am still waiting for the posts acknowledging the pain and fear that so much of the population seem to be in at present. Am I totally misunderstanding this?

Electoral Colleges. I don’t understand this. Does this mean that some peoples' votes are worth more than other peoples? Over 200 000 people preferred HRC, but she still lost? How does that work?

Why is no one concerned that the president elect didn’t even know which way Scotland voted in Brexit - and he was visiting the country? The leader of one of the most powerful nations in the world needs to know what is happening in the rest of the world - and there really aren’t that many countries that make up the UK (4) so not a lot to remember.

Part of the problem here seems to be weighting. We all apply different weights to issues - i.e., those issues with a higher weighting have more value to us than the issues we assign a lower weight too. For the vast majority of us, certain things have a higher weighting at all times, and that doesn't change regardless of circumstance. For example, racism, xenophobia, being a sexual predator, laughing at disabled people.
But it seems that those who voted for the president elect don’t assign a very high weighting to these issues - something I have to admit, I have a problem with. These are not moving targets, they are absolutes - they are just bad things, they don’t become okay things, if other factors are thrown into the mix. So to clarify, does this mean that if someone offers jobs or security etc ( however specious those offers may be), the weighting on these issues changes and gets less and they become irrelevant to voters? One of the commenters, I think referred to these being social issues. I don’t understand that. They are actual issues, that impact real people and the fact that they don’t impact you personally does not make them of less value or importance.

What I think confuses so many of us out here, is the idea that people can say, I don’t like these things and i’m not racist etc but I choose to ignore these areas and focus on others and I’m offended that you think I am racist and okay with a sexual predator. Well I’m afraid that a person who is bad , is bad no matter if some of the time, they say good things or things you want to hear. You can’t pick and choose and if you support them, then you support the entirety of them - the good and the bad. Which is fine if it doesn’t impact you, but to those it does (POC, disabled people, Muslims, Jews) , it must feel like a slap in the face. I would imagine that they feel that you’ve told them they lack value and that respecting them and their safety is of less importance to you because these things simply don’t impact you. Unlike you, they don’t get to ignore these facets of the president elect as they are directly impacted by them.

If this is not at all about racism in any way, then how is it that the vast majority of supporters are white and straight? Clearly they felt spoken to in a way other voters didn’t?

Please forgive me, if I sound blunt, text does not carry tone well and I really am seeking clarification and trying to get my points across clearly.

Like many I am scared of the direction the world is going in at present and the posts I read by parents of special needs children last night fearing the future for their children under your president elect, were very sad. Who will defend these children now?

 

[momhappy]

Momhappy, I do NOT understand what you are saying??? are you saying that now that TRUMPER has been elected that we, those who did NOT vote for him should surmise that he didn't mean what he said? that we 'all' should know that he was not being honest?

God help me. Seriously... I believed what he said and that is why I was against him! you can sign off and 'say' that it's going no where because you have no answer. I say to you, he's a liar then.

Tekate
I don't know why it's so difficult to understand because I've said the same thing over and over and over. If you don't get it or you have your own beliefs, that's fine.
Once again, I believe that campaign promises are issues that a presidential candidate would like to focus on. I suspect that yes, Trump will work towards his goals/promises, as most presidents do.
Oddly enough, this same exact topic is being discussed on the Today Show as I type this. They are breaking down each Trump campaign promise and labeling it based on how likely it is to actually get done while he's in office, so obviously, I am not the only one who recognizes that campaign promises don't always come to fruition. Take his temporary Muslim Ban, for example, the Today Show labeled it "very unlikely" to get done because it's very unpopular opinion, even among Republicans, which again, goes back to my point about things being more complicated (and it helps to explain why some campaign promises get done and some don't).
Yes, you should vote for candidates based on promises, platforms, etc., but I think most of us understand that not everything gets done for various reasons.
I've gotta' say, I'm feeling done with all of this. Trump won. Clinton lost. End of story. I was shocked, I let it sink in, and now I'm moving on. I'm not "signing off" I'm just not interested in this discussion any more and just because you haven't understood my point, doesn't mean that I don't have an answer. If you don't like my answer, that's fine too. If you want to think Trump is a liar, think Trump is a liar. I've never said that he's not a liar. I think that pretty much all politicians are liars to various degrees.

I don't understand why you do not understand that I believe Trump should live up to his rhetoric. Don't you think if Clinton had won the electoral college and became president you would feel the same? From what I read that you say, then all politicians are liars.. If you think I am not world smart, that would be wrong.. I am educated and 63 years old, I've lived through liars before, but I have always believed that a politician who is elected, on either side of the fence, has a duty to live up to what they were elected on.. Trump is a liar.. a big one.. a terrible one, his character is non existent, he has zero character, he uses women, he uses other people's money.. Your point is: 'hey he didn't mean what he said, all politician's lie, so get over it Kate" so what do I vote on? I didn't vote for Trump because of his platform and character.. so whoopie he's now president (with a trial starting next week on his Trump University, those he screwed) and he didn't mean what he said?.. gosh I've voted my conscience all my life and I've never been wrong about a republican yet. Trump won, so now you are feeling done? With winning comes the other side's thoughts, and reactions, think back to when Obama won, omg so many people, Fox news thrived, Trump thrived on stating over and over that Obama was not born here (hey hey he didn't REALLY mean it).. so with winning comes accountability.. I want Trump accountable for what he said he would do, he doesn't get a bye. I'm sorry that you don't understand my belief in accountability and belief in honesty.

I didn't say Trump shouldn't live up to his rhetoric. He should. What I said was I know that realistically, not every campaign promise, by every president, gets done. It's that simple.
And no, my point is not, "Trump didn't mean what he said" because once again, I never said that. I said that he made promises and will likely work towards them like any other president.
Yes, we should hold politicians accountable and yes, they should try to make good on their promises. I didn't buy into Obama's "hopey-changey" stuff, but I know that he, like other presidents before him, worked to make good on certain promises, while others fell flat.
I'm not sure why we're even having this discussion? I'm pretty sure other posters are tired of seeing me post the same things over and over. If you don't get my point, I apologize, but obviously, there's nothing I can say to make it any better for you.
The election is over now. Yes, Trump should work towards his goals/promises. Time will tell how much he is able to achieve.

 

[mochiko42]

Well, Trump has said he will slap a tariff on Chinese goods, do the Chinese really thing that Walmart has that much pull? Ha, they will be surprised. Trump has promised these things, Americans want him to DO these things, it seems the Chinese ruling class doesn't understand the USA... made in America means something to these people..they don't see America as Chinese do. Time will tell. The backlash against the chinese 'elite' could and probably will happen to some degree. But after seeing my 'fellow' Americans elect a scumbag I'm ready to join that ship Marie.. it's no long right or wrong, etiquette is gone, it's America first. Trump and his cronies will be happy to slap a tariff on Chinese imports. Be sure of that. Yes to the USA and being a world power.. and being dominant.. Americans don't care what is happening around them (until, sadly, it's knocking on their door).. Americans are changing, the last full gasp of the me first people have spoken.. So many Latinos? as you may know, America has had Latinos for years, Puerto Rico has sent immigrants for years.. the adage, once I got here I wanted to close the door fits here and the fact that generational Hispanic's are Americans, that was a silver lining to me, not they voted how I wished, but being an American first is a great thing in my book. So if this outcome was a surprise, be assured, China could be in for a big surprise. I agree there isn't always a rational explanation. But I do say I agree wholeheartedly with your perceived (and I'm sure correct) assessment that the USA will become more inward.. Trump has HAS got to bring jobs to the middle class who lost them or it will be 4 years and he's out. Peace!!! hopefully, not sure anymore and again I feel like I"m stuck in a world where I am being controlled by people who only care about themselves ala the Reagan years.

Time will tell. I hope I'm wrong Marie, I really do.. But I doubt it

with love to you and yours

Kate

I guess I have not been very successful in trying to explain why the Chinese prefer Trump. I will make one last stab at trying to explain it then I will let it go, as I don't want to clog up this thread with a discussion of the Chinese psyche and Chinese history!

But to summarize, Chinese leaders are playing the long game as China is a country with 6000 years of history and its very name means the Middle Kingdom (ie the center of the world). They are completely willing and prepared to lose one battle (45% tariff with a country which has slowing and declining economy) in order to win the war (global prominence and dominance). To them, the threat of a possible 45% tariff with the US is only a tiny little stick (based on all the economic reasons I mentioned above), while the possibility of reclaiming what they see as China's place as THE superpower in the world is an exceedingly large carrot. The turmoil and disorder brought about by Trump gives China a golden opportunity to do just that. It's not about the money. The tariff is pretty much nothing to Chinese leaders. It's all about the power and 'face'. Any money lost from a potential tariff would be money well spent in the eyes of many Chinese. On a more visceral level, the reaction of the Chinese to Trump is essentially a mixture of Schadenfreude & opportunism.

I noticed a couple of articles have come out today that may explain this better than I can--

BBC reports that many international business analysts also view the possibility of tariffs and penalties against China as unlikely: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37933376

New York Times reports why Moscow and Beijing welcome a Trump victory:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/world/trump-putin-xi-america.html


And with that, I'll stop posting about China here since this is a thread about the US. I wish America nothing but the best and hope and pray that the country will come out stronger and more united at the end of this dark tunnel.. Take care y'all.

 

[Tekate]

Well, Trump has said he will slap a tariff on Chinese goods, do the Chinese really thing that Walmart has that much pull? Ha, they will be surprised. Trump has promised these things, Americans want him to DO these things, it seems the Chinese ruling class doesn't understand the USA... made in America means something to these people..they don't see America as Chinese do. Time will tell. The backlash against the chinese 'elite' could and probably will happen to some degree. But after seeing my 'fellow' Americans elect a scumbag I'm ready to join that ship Marie.. it's no long right or wrong, etiquette is gone, it's America first. Trump and his cronies will be happy to slap a tariff on Chinese imports. Be sure of that. Yes to the USA and being a world power.. and being dominant.. Americans don't care what is happening around them (until, sadly, it's knocking on their door).. Americans are changing, the last full gasp of the me first people have spoken.. So many Latinos? as you may know, America has had Latinos for years, Puerto Rico has sent immigrants for years.. the adage, once I got here I wanted to close the door fits here and the fact that generational Hispanic's are Americans, that was a silver lining to me, not they voted how I wished, but being an American first is a great thing in my book. So if this outcome was a surprise, be assured, China could be in for a big surprise. I agree there isn't always a rational explanation. But I do say I agree wholeheartedly with your perceived (and I'm sure correct) assessment that the USA will become more inward.. Trump has HAS got to bring jobs to the middle class who lost them or it will be 4 years and he's out. Peace!!! hopefully, not sure anymore and again I feel like I"m stuck in a world where I am being controlled by people who only care about themselves ala the Reagan years.

Time will tell. I hope I'm wrong Marie, I really do.. But I doubt it

with love to you and yours

Kate

I guess I have not been very successful in trying to explain why the Chinese prefer Trump. I will make one last stab at trying to explain it then I will let it go, as I don't want to clog up this thread with a discussion of the Chinese psyche and Chinese history!

But to summarize, Chinese leaders are playing the long game as China is a country with 6000 years of history and its very name means the Middle Kingdom (ie the center of the world). To them, the threat of a possible 45% tariff with the US is only a tiny little stick (based on all the economic reasons I mentioned above), while the possibility of reclaiming what they see as China's place as THE superpower in the world is an exceedingly large carrot. The turmoil and disorder brought about by Trump gives China a golden opportunity to do just that. It's not about the money. The tariff is pretty much nothing to Chinese leaders. It's all about the power and 'face'. Any money lost from a potential tariff would be money well spent in the eyes of many Chinese. On a more visceral level, the reaction of the Chinese to Trump is essentially a mixture of Schadenfreude & opportunism.

I noticed a couple of articles have come out today that may explain this better than I can--

BBC reports that many international business analysts also view the possibility of tariffs and penalties against China as unlikely: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37933376

New York Times reports why Moscow and Beijing welcome a Trump victory:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/world/trump-putin-xi-america.html


And with that, I'll stop posting about China here since this is a thread about the US. I wish America nothing but the best and hope and pray that the country will come out stronger and more united at the end of this dark tunnel.. Take care y'all.

thanks Marie, take care! i've not set my beautiful tourmaline yet.. I have some arranging to do, but when I do you will be the first to see it!!

Peace. Love. Joy.

 

[Tekate]

Momhappy, I do NOT understand what you are saying??? are you saying that now that TRUMPER has been elected that we, those who did NOT vote for him should surmise that he didn't mean what he said? that we 'all' should know that he was not being honest?

God help me. Seriously... I believed what he said and that is why I was against him! you can sign off and 'say' that it's going no where because you have no answer. I say to you, he's a liar then.

Tekate
I don't know why it's so difficult to understand because I've said the same thing over and over and over. If you don't get it or you have your own beliefs, that's fine.
Once again, I believe that campaign promises are issues that a presidential candidate would like to focus on. I suspect that yes, Trump will work towards his goals/promises, as most presidents do.
Oddly enough, this same exact topic is being discussed on the Today Show as I type this. They are breaking down each Trump campaign promise and labeling it based on how likely it is to actually get done while he's in office, so obviously, I am not the only one who recognizes that campaign promises don't always come to fruition. Take his temporary Muslim Ban, for example, the Today Show labeled it "very unlikely" to get done because it's very unpopular opinion, even among Republicans, which again, goes back to my point about things being more complicated (and it helps to explain why some campaign promises get done and some don't).
Yes, you should vote for candidates based on promises, platforms, etc., but I think most of us understand that not everything gets done for various reasons.
I've gotta' say, I'm feeling done with all of this. Trump won. Clinton lost. End of story. I was shocked, I let it sink in, and now I'm moving on. I'm not "signing off" I'm just not interested in this discussion any more and just because you haven't understood my point, doesn't mean that I don't have an answer. If you don't like my answer, that's fine too. If you want to think Trump is a liar, think Trump is a liar. I've never said that he's not a liar. I think that pretty much all politicians are liars to various degrees.

I don't understand why you do not understand that I believe Trump should live up to his rhetoric. Don't you think if Clinton had won the electoral college and became president you would feel the same? From what I read that you say, then all politicians are liars.. If you think I am not world smart, that would be wrong.. I am educated and 63 years old, I've lived through liars before, but I have always believed that a politician who is elected, on either side of the fence, has a duty to live up to what they were elected on.. Trump is a liar.. a big one.. a terrible one, his character is non existent, he has zero character, he uses women, he uses other people's money.. Your point is: 'hey he didn't mean what he said, all politician's lie, so get over it Kate" so what do I vote on? I didn't vote for Trump because of his platform and character.. so whoopie he's now president (with a trial starting next week on his Trump University, those he screwed) and he didn't mean what he said?.. gosh I've voted my conscience all my life and I've never been wrong about a republican yet. Trump won, so now you are feeling done? With winning comes the other side's thoughts, and reactions, think back to when Obama won, omg so many people, Fox news thrived, Trump thrived on stating over and over that Obama was not born here (hey hey he didn't REALLY mean it).. so with winning comes accountability.. I want Trump accountable for what he said he would do, he doesn't get a bye. I'm sorry that you don't understand my belief in accountability and belief in honesty.

I didn't say Trump shouldn't live up to his rhetoric. He should. What I said was I know that realistically, not every campaign promise, by every president, gets done. It's that simple.
And no, my point is not, "Trump didn't mean what he said" because once again, I never said that. I said that he made promises and will likely work towards them like any other president.
Yes, we should hold politicians accountable and yes, they should try to make good on their promises. I didn't buy into Obama's "hopey-changey" stuff, but I know that he, like other presidents before him, worked to make good on certain promises, while others fell flat.
I'm not sure why we're even having this discussion? I'm pretty sure other posters are tired of seeing me post the same things over and over. If you don't get my point, I apologize, but obviously, there's nothing I can say to make it any better for you.
The election is over now. Yes, Trump should work towards his goals/promises. Time will tell how much he is able to achieve.

So, I will let it go.. I will keep on reminding Trump and other pubs on what they promised.. With a FULL house of republicans we should see a full slate of Trumps promises kept.

 

[distracts]

Shiny pretty things-

>Electoral Colleges. I don’t understand this. Does this mean that some peoples' votes are worth more than other peoples? Over 200 000 people preferred HRC, but she still lost? How does that work?

re: Electoral college - each state has a number of electoral votes. For almost all states, ALL of their electoral votes go toward whoever the majority IN THAT STATE voted for. So North Carolina has 15 electoral votes. Donald Trump got 51% of the vote while Hillary Clinton got 47%. The electoral votes are not split proportionally - ALL 15 go to Trump. The majority of Democratic voters are concentrated in urban areas, so mainly on the coasts, so a few democratic states have far higher population than others. This is why the two recent times where there has been a popular vote/electoral college split have been Democrats with the popular vote and Republicans with the electoral college. Numerically, there are simply more Democrats. And this is the electoral college working as it was designed - to ensure that states with smaller populations could not be trampled by states with larger populations.

>Despite the fact that people who didn’t voted for the president elect often seeming to acknowledge that they didn’t realise how much pain half the country was in, those who support the president elect, don't seem to have acknowledged the pain and fear of those who did not support him.

Plenty of Democrats knew how much pain half the country was in, which is why there are plenty of Democratic policies specifically to address those issues. Most of us aren't actually blind to what is happening across the country, but with politics becoming less policy-driven and more identity-driven, well, the ignorant white folk voted for the ignorant white man. And those who voted for Trump DO know the fear of those who did not support him. Some just don't want to have to deal with it and some actively revel in it.

>What I think confuses so many of us out here, is the idea that people can say, I don’t like these things and i’m not racist etc but I choose to ignore these areas and focus on others and I’m offended that you think I am racist and okay with a sexual predator. Well I’m afraid that a person who is bad , is bad no matter if some of the time, they say good things or things you want to hear. You can’t pick and choose and if you support them, then you support the entirety of them - the good and the bad.

Yep. If you endorse racist people/views, you are a racist. And you don't get to say you're not just because your poor little feelings are hurt that other people think negatively of you. Apparently this is really hard for some people to grasp though.

This is a good article that explains what is going on pretty well: http://www.vox.com/2016/9/19/12933072/far-right-white-riot-trump-brexit It is LONG but it is packed full of information.

 

[redwood66]

Seriously? The utter nasty shit that has been spewed here just on PS toward conservatives and you wonder why people would not say anything? The other thread that shows 23 voters for Trump, I know maybe 2 or 3 that actually posted.

Yes, the piling on mentality and bullying accusations from PSers is disheartening

I find it quite disheartening that people don't understand the liberal vote, the people who care about each other... it's quite disheartening to me to see this on Pricescope.

You know that I care about you. It is not the understanding the liberal vote. it is the nasty comments directly at conservative posters that Bonfire is talking about. Nothing else.

 

[momhappy]

Momhappy, I do NOT understand what you are saying??? are you saying that now that TRUMPER has been elected that we, those who did NOT vote for him should surmise that he didn't mean what he said? that we 'all' should know that he was not being honest?

God help me. Seriously... I believed what he said and that is why I was against him! you can sign off and 'say' that it's going no where because you have no answer. I say to you, he's a liar then.

Tekate
I don't know why it's so difficult to understand because I've said the same thing over and over and over. If you don't get it or you have your own beliefs, that's fine.
Once again, I believe that campaign promises are issues that a presidential candidate would like to focus on. I suspect that yes, Trump will work towards his goals/promises, as most presidents do.
Oddly enough, this same exact topic is being discussed on the Today Show as I type this. They are breaking down each Trump campaign promise and labeling it based on how likely it is to actually get done while he's in office, so obviously, I am not the only one who recognizes that campaign promises don't always come to fruition. Take his temporary Muslim Ban, for example, the Today Show labeled it "very unlikely" to get done because it's very unpopular opinion, even among Republicans, which again, goes back to my point about things being more complicated (and it helps to explain why some campaign promises get done and some don't).
Yes, you should vote for candidates based on promises, platforms, etc., but I think most of us understand that not everything gets done for various reasons.
I've gotta' say, I'm feeling done with all of this. Trump won. Clinton lost. End of story. I was shocked, I let it sink in, and now I'm moving on. I'm not "signing off" I'm just not interested in this discussion any more and just because you haven't understood my point, doesn't mean that I don't have an answer. If you don't like my answer, that's fine too. If you want to think Trump is a liar, think Trump is a liar. I've never said that he's not a liar. I think that pretty much all politicians are liars to various degrees.

I don't understand why you do not understand that I believe Trump should live up to his rhetoric. Don't you think if Clinton had won the electoral college and became president you would feel the same? From what I read that you say, then all politicians are liars.. If you think I am not world smart, that would be wrong.. I am educated and 63 years old, I've lived through liars before, but I have always believed that a politician who is elected, on either side of the fence, has a duty to live up to what they were elected on.. Trump is a liar.. a big one.. a terrible one, his character is non existent, he has zero character, he uses women, he uses other people's money.. Your point is: 'hey he didn't mean what he said, all politician's lie, so get over it Kate" so what do I vote on? I didn't vote for Trump because of his platform and character.. so whoopie he's now president (with a trial starting next week on his Trump University, those he screwed) and he didn't mean what he said?.. gosh I've voted my conscience all my life and I've never been wrong about a republican yet. Trump won, so now you are feeling done? With winning comes the other side's thoughts, and reactions, think back to when Obama won, omg so many people, Fox news thrived, Trump thrived on stating over and over that Obama was not born here (hey hey he didn't REALLY mean it).. so with winning comes accountability.. I want Trump accountable for what he said he would do, he doesn't get a bye. I'm sorry that you don't understand my belief in accountability and belief in honesty.

I didn't say Trump shouldn't live up to his rhetoric. He should. What I said was I know that realistically, not every campaign promise, by every president, gets done. It's that simple.
And no, my point is not, "Trump didn't mean what he said" because once again, I never said that. I said that he made promises and will likely work towards them like any other president.
Yes, we should hold politicians accountable and yes, they should try to make good on their promises. I didn't buy into Obama's "hopey-changey" stuff, but I know that he, like other presidents before him, worked to make good on certain promises, while others fell flat.
I'm not sure why we're even having this discussion? I'm pretty sure other posters are tired of seeing me post the same things over and over. If you don't get my point, I apologize, but obviously, there's nothing I can say to make it any better for you.
The election is over now. Yes, Trump should work towards his goals/promises. Time will tell how much he is able to achieve.

So, I will let it go.. I will keep on reminding Trump and other pubs on what they promised.. With a FULL house of republicans we should see a full slate of Trumps promises kept.

Fabulous!
I saw a tweet today that pretty much sums it up:
"I hope that Trump is a good president. Wanting him to fail is like wanting the pilot to crash the plane that we are ALL on."

 

[OreoRosies86]

Edited: meh. Never mind.

 

[Matata]

I appreciate those few who responded to me and courteously - thank you. No response from the original poster though I see- I suppose thats one way to deal with dissenting views.


I have seriously debated posting this and I really hope I don't regret it but I realise that the reason this is so much on my mind (and that of my family and friends) is because we don’t understand why anyone would vote for someone who seems to be so patently a bad man - a man who in many ways embodies the worst of humanity rather than the best. And make no mistake, many countries elect bad men and mine is one of them. The difference here is how powerful your country is and how much the decisions that you make impact the rest of the world whether we like it or not.

Shiny, thank you so much for this post which I didn't quote in its entirety just to save space. Distracts thank you for the link in your response to Shiny. Racism, xenophobia etc, may be the reasons why we are shifting to a more hateful and fearful world view, but the root cause is that we are animals and the thin veneer of civilization is unable to ameliorate our base instincts (subconscious urges, behaviors, and intuitions directed by primeval, animalistic, self-serving, and ignoble motivations).

 

[Tekate]

Mom: I don't want him to fail, he's already a failure to me. Everything he said during the election cycle is anathema to my core person and belief system, my religion. It's not that I am on a plane and I have to put my faith in a pilot, who to me isn't qualified.

So all the graciousness of the winners is noble, and nice. I just cannot rise to believing anything about this guy is redeemable. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.. So peace to you and yours, I will watch and hope for the best.

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

I was never a fan of Clinton, I am a Bernie girl through and through. I am TERRIFIED of religious people having a say over what happens with MY body and the bodies of millions of women. I am so scared for my gay friends and family members who have a very realistic chance of having their rights stripped away. I am a public school teacher, who even knows what's going to happen with that. I work with a completely minority population of children and I look like the person who they are terrified of. I am OK with a decent chunk of "my" money paying for someone else's healthcare. I really am. I don't think anyone should have to be worried about not being able to afford going to the doctor, not in this day. People who are older don't have to worry much about climate change, I do.

All we can do now is continue to be active and fight for the democratic party to change their ways. This is the party's failure, and now we have to deal with the consequences.

 

[telephone89]

Bernie posted this on his FB page:

Donald Trump tapped into the anger of a declining middle class that is sick and tired of establishment economics, establishment politics and the establishment media. People are tired of working longer hours for lower wages, of seeing decent paying jobs go to China and other low-wage countries, of billionaires not paying any federal income taxes and of not being able to afford a college education for their kids - all while the very rich become much richer.

To the degree that Mr. Trump is serious about pursuing policies that improve the lives of working families in this country, I and other progressives are prepared to work with him. To the degree that he pursues racist, sexist, xenophobic and anti-environment policies, we will vigorously oppose him.

I love Bernie, and think he's a fu*king badass, but the underlined kind of made me go 'hmm', since that describes Trump to a T. But I do like the last paragraph.

 

[Loves Vintage]

Bernie posted this on his FB page:

Donald Trump tapped into the anger of a declining middle class that is sick and tired of establishment economics, establishment politics and the establishment media. People are tired of working longer hours for lower wages, of seeing decent paying jobs go to China and other low-wage countries, of billionaires not paying any federal income taxes and of not being able to afford a college education for their kids - all while the very rich become much richer.

To the degree that Mr. Trump is serious about pursuing policies that improve the lives of working families in this country, I and other progressives are prepared to work with him. To the degree that he pursues racist, sexist, xenophobic and anti-environment policies, we will vigorously oppose him.

I love Bernie, and think he's a fu*king badass, but the underlined kind of made me go 'hmm', since that describes Trump to a T. But I do like the last paragraph.

Yes, I noticed that as well. I think the irony was intentional.

 

[momhappy]

Mom: I don't want him to fail, he's already a failure to me. Everything he said during the election cycle is anathema to my core person and belief system, my religion. It's not that I am on a plane and I have to put my faith in a pilot, who to me isn't qualified.

So all the graciousness of the winners is noble, and nice. I just cannot rise to believing anything about this guy is redeemable. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.. So peace to you and yours, I will watch and hope for the best.

I don't consider myself a "winner" in this scenario (I ended up doing a write-in candidate for president and voted in all of the other elections) but I'm fine with accepting the results and moving on with life just as I did when Obama won the presidency.
Peace to you and yours as well. I, too, will be watching and hoping for the best

 

[LLJsmom]

Well, Trump has said he will slap a tariff on Chinese goods, do the Chinese really thing that Walmart has that much pull? Ha, they will be surprised. Trump has promised these things, Americans want him to DO these things, it seems the Chinese ruling class doesn't understand the USA... made in America means something to these people..they don't see America as Chinese do. Time will tell. The backlash against the chinese 'elite' could and probably will happen to some degree. But after seeing my 'fellow' Americans elect a scumbag I'm ready to join that ship Marie.. it's no long right or wrong, etiquette is gone, it's America first. Trump and his cronies will be happy to slap a tariff on Chinese imports. Be sure of that. Yes to the USA and being a world power.. and being dominant.. Americans don't care what is happening around them (until, sadly, it's knocking on their door).. Americans are changing, the last full gasp of the me first people have spoken.. So many Latinos? as you may know, America has had Latinos for years, Puerto Rico has sent immigrants for years.. the adage, once I got here I wanted to close the door fits here and the fact that generational Hispanic's are Americans, that was a silver lining to me, not they voted how I wished, but being an American first is a great thing in my book. So if this outcome was a surprise, be assured, China could be in for a big surprise. I agree there isn't always a rational explanation. But I do say I agree wholeheartedly with your perceived (and I'm sure correct) assessment that the USA will become more inward.. Trump has HAS got to bring jobs to the middle class who lost them or it will be 4 years and he's out. Peace!!! hopefully, not sure anymore and again I feel like I"m stuck in a world where I am being controlled by people who only care about themselves ala the Reagan years.

Time will tell. I hope I'm wrong Marie, I really do.. But I doubt it

with love to you and yours

Kate

I guess I have not been very successful in trying to explain why the Chinese prefer Trump. I will make one last stab at trying to explain it then I will let it go, as I don't want to clog up this thread with a discussion of the Chinese psyche and Chinese history!

But to summarize, Chinese leaders are playing the long game as China is a country with 6000 years of history and its very name means the Middle Kingdom (ie the center of the world). They are completely willing and prepared to lose one battle (45% tariff with a country which has slowing and declining economy) in order to win the war (global prominence and dominance). To them, the threat of a possible 45% tariff with the US is only a tiny little stick (based on all the economic reasons I mentioned above), while the possibility of reclaiming what they see as China's place as THE superpower in the world is an exceedingly large carrot. The turmoil and disorder brought about by Trump gives China a golden opportunity to do just that. It's not about the money. The tariff is pretty much nothing to Chinese leaders. It's all about the power and 'face'. Any money lost from a potential tariff would be money well spent in the eyes of many Chinese. On a more visceral level, the reaction of the Chinese to Trump is essentially a mixture of Schadenfreude & opportunism.

I noticed a couple of articles have come out today that may explain this better than I can--

BBC reports that many international business analysts also view the possibility of tariffs and penalties against China as unlikely: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37933376

New York Times reports why Moscow and Beijing welcome a Trump victory:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/world/trump-putin-xi-america.html


And with that, I'll stop posting about China here since this is a thread about the US. I wish America nothing but the best and hope and pray that the country will come out stronger and more united at the end of this dark tunnel.. Take care y'all.

Mochiko, thank you again. I really enjoy your posts and find them very educational and value-added. I hope you don't stop posting anything that you believe is valuable, truly. I look forward to reading your posts. I hope you will remember that when you are debating whether to post.

 

[azstonie]

Mochiko, PLEASE do post. I specifically look for your posts on just these kinds of topics.

 

[chrono]

Mochiko, PLEASE do post. I specifically look for your posts on just these kinds of topics.

+1. It is good to see an outside point of view.

 

[ruby59]

Fabulous!
I saw a tweet today that pretty much sums it up:
"I hope that Trump is a good president. Wanting him to fail is like wanting the pilot to crash the plane that we are ALL on."
_____________________________

Exactly. We saw how well that worked with President Obama.

We need to work together as a nation instead of trying to sabotage him.

 

[Shiny_pretty_things]

Distracts and Matata, thank you both for responding to me and thanks for the link Distracts. My apologies for the length of the post - I read it to my husband and he said that its way too long, no one will respond so thank you both

 

[Dancing Fire]

Live with it people. Americans have spoken inside the voting booth.

 

[cmd2014]

Foreigner here and rare poster but thats a silly statement and irritated me enough I'm posting - which I will probably regret shortly.

Perhaps as an American you don't see it but to the rest of the world, your president elect did all the damage himself. He made racist, xenophobic statements and is clearly a sexual predator. POC were attacked at his rallies and the world watched open mouthed and horrified that he didn't step in say thats unacceptable, Americans don't behave that way.

He was caught on tape enthusiastically admitting to forcing himself on women regardless of whether they were willing or not and we sat stunned, that many of you seemed okay with that and dismissed it as 'locker room talk'. Is this really how men talk about wives, daughters and mothers in your locker rooms? Thats terrifying.

This nothing to do with HRC (and I'm a foreigner so you most certainly can't accuse me of being a democrat or republican or liberal (whatever that means), this has all to do with your president elect and his appalling behaviour. He treated your elections like a reality show and apparently many people were just fine with that.

+1. I'm also hesitant to comment as I'm not sure it's appropriate given that I have no personal stake in this (well, apart from what the US is capable of doing in terms of the worldwide economic, environmental, sociopolitical, and climate implications if Donald Trump follows through on his campaign promises). I also have friends who I dearly respect who I know are Trump supporters (and I have worked very hard to avoid debating the perceived merits of this with them). But honestly, this is what the rest of the world saw and thinks right now. And it makes me sadder than I can say.

 

[newjourney]

Shiny pretty things-

>Electoral Colleges. I don’t understand this. Does this mean that some peoples' votes are worth more than other peoples? Over 200 000 people preferred HRC, but she still lost? How does that work?

re: Electoral college - each state has a number of electoral votes. For almost all states, ALL of their electoral votes go toward whoever the majority IN THAT STATE voted for. So North Carolina has 15 electoral votes. Donald Trump got 51% of the vote while Hillary Clinton got 47%. The electoral votes are not split proportionally - ALL 15 go to Trump. The majority of Democratic voters are concentrated in urban areas, so mainly on the coasts, so a few democratic states have far higher population than others. This is why the two recent times where there has been a popular vote/electoral college split have been Democrats with the popular vote and Republicans with the electoral college. Numerically, there are simply more Democrats. And this is the electoral college working as it was designed - to ensure that states with smaller populations could not be trampled by states with larger populations.

There have been debates about the democratic nature of the electoral voting system. Having states' electorates casting the majority vote for a candidate, while in essence fairly depicts/represents the voting interests from all states, unfortunately filters the minority votes that are actually part of the national popular votes. I think it's great that we account for the voice of people living in different geographical areas under different social and economic media, but it's not exactly democratic when the voice of the majority is ultimately cast aside. The widespread demonstrations in more than 20 cities last night were evident of this discontent. The current voting system is no longer appropriate for this day and age.
"The times they are a-chagin'" -- Bob Dylan

 

[cmd2014]

As one of the Deplorables…. Let me give my take on why President Elect Trump won the election.

A lot of what he said was just words. We understand that. We understand when he talked about “Bomb the sh.. out of them” he meant that he would be willing to use force when needed. When he talked about admiring Putin, he was admiring his strength as a leader….. not communism. When he spoke of Mexican rapists, we know he didn’t mean ALL Mexicans are rapists. When he spoke of being able to “grab them by the p…y”, we know that’s locker room talk. Whether he did or not doesn’t matter because most of us know many men that have done the same thing in the past. When he talks about “Build that wall”, we know he is talking about increasing National Security, whether an actual wall is built or not. When he talks about ripping up trade deals, we know he means that we have to quit receiving so many goods made overseas and start making goods here to send to other countries.

I started writing this this morning I wanted to share some of my thoughts. Maybe some of you can begin to understand. The Donald Trump that gave the speech last night is who I believe is the TRUE Donald Trump

I don't think many people who are supporters do think that these are "just words." I actually think that there are a LOT of people who believe him and take those words at face value. Not as a "figure of speech" or a metaphor for the more socially acceptable thing that you think he *really* meant. But at face value. Literally. EXACTLY as they were spoken, word for word.

There is no such thing as "just words." Words express and communicate ideas and beliefs. And people assume that you mean them. Donald Trump normalized a set of dangerous, racist, sexist, misogynistic, violent, anti-humanitarian, and anti-science beliefs that clearly resonated with a subset of the American population.

And what any person in the public eye knows (or *should* know), is that when you normalize antisocial beliefs you also normalize and condone the antisocial behaviour that goes with them.

I feel sorry for women in the US if the sexism and misogyny that we were witness to during this campaign is so truly normal that it can be dismissed as "locker talk."

I feel sorry for POC who feel unsafe in your communities. And yes, I would feel unsafe if I was exposed to the kind of "talk" encouraged at Trump rallies. I sometimes wondered if HRC felt unsafe. The t-shirts, the memes, the joking invitation to casual violence... Hate speech is not protected under your First Amendment. There is a REASON for this.

I feel sorry for immigrants whose hard work and contributions to society have been dismissed (is the US not proudly a country of immigrants?).

I feel sorry for the world and what may be wrought if the lack of class, grace, or compassion shown by Donald Trump in his words and actions throughout the campaign is demonstrated when he has absolute power unchecked by the Senate or House and also has the power to influence the world.

I'm scared of the fact that you have protests in your streets of a sort that would be normal for a developing nation and not for the most powerful and developed country in the world.

I wasn't going to reply (because again, as a foreigner, you probably don't think I have a right to an opinion, and maybe I don't). But then I saw the link that someone else had posted: https://twitter.com/i/moments/796417517157830656

So it's not "just words" is it?

I hope that this can be turned around. I hope that the US can remember who they are (and that this isn't it). I hope that Donald Trump has depth to him and character that we have not seen. And I hope that putting him in a position of completely unchecked power is worth whatever "other issues" were felt to take priority over the racism, sexism, dangerous bouts of adolescent temper, and ugliness shown by him (and now by many who follow him). I do think the world is a darker place today because of him.

 

[mochiko42]

Mochiko, PLEASE do post. I specifically look for your posts on just these kinds of topics.

+1. It is good to see an outside point of view.

Thanks Chrono, azstonie, LLJsmom. I guess the past few days have given us all much food for thought.

I would only add the caveat that most of what I posted is skewed by my individual perspective as someone who has studied / has an interest in political science and international affairs and who also has spent time & has close family in the US. So maybe I overanalyze a little!!

For your average person over here, Trump is a political unknown while Clinton is generally not very well liked. Most just see Trump as the business man / celebrity from the Apprentice, and they think that's entertaining. On the news last night they interviewed some people in the street here. Most did not know Trump very well and said , 'oh he's that businessman/celebrity, so he will have a practical business minded approach'. Whereas, on the flip side, Hillary Clinton is a known 'meddler' due to her decades of pushing China on human rights issues and diplomatic issues (and they held the Clinton Global Initiative conference in Hong Kong a few years back which involved NGOs, nonprofits and other groups which the Chinese government finds suspect).

Chinese leaders are not elected (partly why they can afford to be less worried about the ramification of any tariff because they are not directly answerable to the voters), but there is a leadership shuffle every 10 years at the Chinese Communist Party. The current leader Xi Jinping has spent a lot of effort in the past 9 years laying the bricks for his vision of modern China, and if American society is in turmoil (which it already seems to be: http://qz.com/833607/us-election-a-rash-of-racist-attacks-have-broken-out-in-the-us-after-donald-trumps-victory/) during the next Chinese leadership change (which will happen next year in 2017) then all the better.

Xi has promoted an increasingly intolerant & authoritarian policy that will brook no dissent (the recent Charities Law that was passed earlier this year, and the proposed Foreign NGO/nonprofit law, and now the new Cybersecurity Law which has made online anonymity illegal). If America swings closer to China's way of running a country, then it lends validation and tacit endorsement of the Chinese model, which China has been actively pushing to other countries that accept foreign aid as a less patronizing alternative to the Washington Consensus traditionally promoted by Western-dominated int'l agencies (IMF, WB, US Treasury etc).

To be honest, the values and raison d'etre that America traditionally believes in are very different to that of China and Russia, so when both the leadership of these two countries are happy about the outcome of the US election, that suggests something about the way the US is headed for the next 4 years.

Pulling a few interesting quotes from https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-10/for-china-trump-s-style-brings-optimism-even-as-rhetoric-bites

“I see Sino-U.S. relations have a greater chance of thriving under the Trump presidency," said Ruan Zongze, an envoy at China’s Embassy in Washington between 2007 and 2011. “Trump is a businessman, and China likes dealing with businessmen as they are pragmatic and not ideologically bent. A businessman is capable of making possible what would otherwise be impossible from the standpoint of a pure politician.”

Michael Pillsbury, an adviser to Trump’s transition team who served as a defense official in the Reagan administration, said while the president-elect wants to strengthen the U.S. military, his main concern would be the economy rather than the movements of the People’s Liberation Army.
“Trump is not a traditional Republican conservative in the sense of the military challenge from China,” said Pillsbury, who is a research fellow at the Hudson Institute. “He’s said very little about the PLA, China’s plans in space, the South China Sea: he’s focused more on American jobs.”

“In any other year, the Chinese would recognize they have much more to lose, given unbalanced market access, and be restrained,” he said. “But it’s a Party Congress year and nationalism may be stoked.”

“Trump doesn’t have a China policy,” Schell said. “Anything is likely with him, because he is not so much an ideologue as an opportunist. And this actually is something that the Chinese leaders understand.”

“We don’t really buy all that he said during the campaign,” said Ma, who sits on the public diplomacy advisory council of China’s foreign ministry. “Lots of lip service and hot air. Who knows what he believes? Perhaps he himself doesn’t know either.”




From http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/world/asia/trump-president-asia-china-japan.html:::


Some economic advisers to the Chinese government were skeptical that Mr. Trump would follow through with drastic action that could prompt a trade war. After all, they said, American presidential candidates have been promising to get tough on Chinese trade policies for more than two decades and have invariably backed off after taking office.

“Nobody takes the electioneering that seriously,” said Andrew Sheng, a former chairman of the Hong Kong Securities and Futures Commission who advises the Chinese government on financial policy. “People accept that the American consumers benefit so much from trade that it won’t change that much.”

Yu Yongding, a prominent economist at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences in Beijing, also had doubts. “All the things he said during the election were the talk of an amateur — I don’t think he was in earnest,” he said. “After he becomes president, there’ll be advisers at his side to explain to him what the exchange rate is, what capital flows are, what macroeconomic policy is.”

Maybe he will decrease the commitment to Pacific security issues,” said Shin Kawashima, a professor of international relations at the University of Tokyo. “But if he carries out such a policy, China will be much more authoritative and aggressive in the Pacific. And then most of the alliance countries and security experts in Washington will be against Trump’s policies. It is a little difficult for Trump to just change all the old policies.”

 

[luckystar112]

Hi guys! I'm sure none of you will remember me...like so many other girls I basically just disappeared after I got married. lol.
I don't know...I've just been thinking so much about this election lately that I felt inspired to come here to see what some of you girls were saying about it. Like so many of you, I am not at all happy. I feel trapped, hopeless, and a bit scared for our future. I'm really just shocked that we allowed this to happen.

But above everything, I just feel so sad about Obama leaving.

It's funny because I was super active on these forums during the 2008 election, and I was 100% vehemently against Obama. Does Thing_2 still post here? I remember going back and forth with her about it quite a few times. I'm actually quite embarrassed by those posts. Hopefully they disappeared with the old forum.

But man, what a president. He was classy to the end. Always respectful, full of charisma, and actually gave a rat's about us. Even if you disagreed with this policies you had to respect his thought process. He had such a great way of making you understand his end goal. As time went on I found myself more and more appreciative of him as a man and as a leader. My heart broke every time he tried to make our country a tiny bit better and congress wouldn't let him. Or every time he had to give yet another speech after a mass shooting that fell on deaf ears. He gave it his all. I don't think we would have been so lucky to have that with either candidate this time around.

Someone over on Reddit posted this album of his presidency over the last 8 years, and I looked through it like because it really got me right in the feels. I thought it might be worth sharing: https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/5c8zu5/the_white_houses_pete_souza_has_shot_nearly_2m/

As for Trump...I don't know. I can't see myself having such a strong shift in political ideology again, and honestly--I don't want to. I don't like the person I was then. I don't want to have anything to do with that sort of thinking. So that's where I'm at now. I feel like we took a giant leap forward and now we'll be dragged a few steps back. I'm about to go off and read that other post about what we can do to fix this in a couple years, because I don't know about you--but I feel more fired up for "Hope" and "Change" than ever before.

Anyway, I thought I'd stop in and give my two cents.

 

[LLJsmom]

Hi guys! I'm sure none of you will remember me...like so many other girls I basically just disappeared after I got married. lol.
I don't know...I've just been thinking so much about this election lately that I felt inspired to come here to see what some of you girls were saying about it. Like so many of you, I am not at all happy. I feel trapped, hopeless, and a bit scared for our future. I'm really just shocked that we allowed this to happen.

But above everything, I just feel so sad about Obama leaving.

It's funny because I was super active on these forums during the 2008 election, and I was 100% vehemently against Obama. Does Thing_2 still post here? I remember going back and forth with her about it quite a few times. I'm actually quite embarrassed by those posts. Hopefully they disappeared with the old forum.

But man, what a president. He was classy to the end. Always respectful, full of charisma, and actually gave a rat's about us. Even if you disagreed with this policies you had to respect his thought process. He had such a great way of making you understand his end goal. As time went on I found myself more and more appreciative of him as a man and as a leader. My heart broke every time he tried to make our country a tiny bit better and congress wouldn't let him. Or every time he had to give yet another speech after a mass shooting that fell on deaf ears. He gave it his all. I don't think we would have been so lucky to have that with either candidate this time around.

Someone over on Reddit posted this album of his presidency over the last 8 years, and I looked through it like because it really got me right in the feels. I thought it might be worth sharing: https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/5c8zu5/the_white_houses_pete_souza_has_shot_nearly_2m/

As for Trump...I don't know. I can't see myself having such a strong shift in political ideology again, and honestly--I don't want to. I don't like the person I was then. I don't want to have anything to do with that sort of thinking. So that's where I'm at now. I feel like we took a giant leap forward and now we'll be dragged a few steps back. I'm about to go off and read that other post about what we can do to fix this in a couple years, because I don't know about you--but I feel more fired up for "Hope" and "Change" than ever before.

Anyway, I thought I'd stop in and give my two cents.

Lucky, I haven't read any posts from you before but your post moved and humbled me greatly. Thank you for being open and soft-hearted in the best way. I hope you will continue to share and post. It was a blessing.

 

[Matata]

I just feel so sad about Obama leaving.

Me too. The Obamas are a class act and the only couple to inhabit the White House that I would have enjoyed knowing personally.

 

[ruby59]

I just feel so sad about Obama leaving.

Me too. The Obamas are a class act and the only couple to inhabit the White House that I would have enjoyed knowing personally.

I have to agree that he was a class act.

I even enjoyed the movie of their meeting "Southside with You."

 

[Dancing Fire]

Uh oh, because you can DF, those who voted for him may not be able to. I'm happy to see you can afford to pay more.. do you think all Americans are willing to pay more? I have a bridge for you.

I hope so b/c American made products are much higher quality. I am all for made in the USA products....except for our cars..