Texas

[MaisOuiMadame]

I've refrained from commenting, since I'm not in the US. @LemonMoonLex said it aptly: it makes my heart shrink.
The intention of this bill incredibly cruel and misanthropic. Yes, it affects women first and foremost, but it's just plain disregard for humans as a whole.

The one thing I CAN say , though , is that the whole thing seems to be incredibly stupidly crafted from what I gather in the media and from this thread.

That's my only hope, really.

I cannot even imagine living in a place where this mindset might be the majority opinion. I refuse to believe that the majority of the actual people living there think this is acceptable (let alone a good idea).

 

[Lula]

@Ella, This topic has bothered me immensely the past few days. I’m really not trying to be disrespectful to you. I’m just mad as hell that this is happening in this country and extremely upset for how this decision will affect women lives. The no exception for rape and incest is just unfathomably cruel.

I don’t want this thread shut down.

I’m pro-choice. Let me just say that. However, the no exceptions for rape/incest are actually more consistent with a “prolife” standpoint than previous legislation with all the exceptions. Forcing women to have children against their will no matter the circumstance is what it means to be “prolife.” This law has at least generated discussion about what life would be like for women in a truly “prolife” state.

 

[Lookinagain]

I would hope a general donation to planned parenthood could not be considered a violation of this statute.
And from a practical standpoint the deputized Texans would be scouring the whole country and I assume they would have to bring all these cases in Texas courts or pull you into Federal court under some diversity theory or something like that.
we won’t know how this will play out until some deputy sues an individual who helped out. Unfortunately we don’t know when that will be and until that time this will chill all those who may be involved in helping women exercise their rights. Which is probably the goal.

 

[missy]

 

[MrsBlue]

The law was specifically crafted to make legal challenges more difficult. Justice Sotomayor lays it out in her dissent. I've linked the whole thing and pasted the key paragraph below.

Sotomayor’s Defiant Dissent

In her blistering dissent, the Supreme Court justice calls out her conservative colleagues’ breathtaking disregard of precedent and the Constitution.

www.thenation.com

The Legislature fashioned this scheme because federal constitutional challenges to state laws ordinarily are brought against state officers who are in charge of enforcing the law. By prohibiting state officers from enforcing the Act directly and relying instead on citizen bounty hunters, the Legislature sought to make it more complicated for federal courts to enjoin the Act on a statewide basis.

 

[Lookinagain]

The law was specifically crafted to make legal challenges more difficult. Justice Sotomayor lays it out in her dissent. I've linked the whole thing and pasted the key paragraph below.

Sotomayor’s Defiant Dissent

In her blistering dissent, the Supreme Court justice calls out her conservative colleagues’ breathtaking disregard of precedent and the Constitution.

www.thenation.com

The Legislature fashioned this scheme because federal constitutional challenges to state laws ordinarily are brought against state officers who are in charge of enforcing the law. By prohibiting state officers from enforcing the Act directly and relying instead on citizen bounty hunters, the Legislature sought to make it more complicated for federal courts to enjoin the Act on a statewide basis.

Yes, and that is why the statute is so damaging and crazy. Citizen bounty hunters lurking at CVS to see who buys an early pregnancy test and then spying on them to see where they go and who helps them. It's like an old episode from the Twilight Zone or some other science fiction program.

 

[oceanblue]

Ok so I came back to defend Texas in a very small way.

My 4th grade TX history lesson taught me:
They were once aligned with Mexico. They had to bribe people to move and settle here (luckily cattle thrived). They want to be there own country.

Texas talks big, about everything. The pride runs so deep, the flag is embossed on everything. It is not like any state I have ever lived in. They want national attention and be important. And, I think, at some point they will back down on the abortion law.

As for the new gun law. It sounds awful but living here in a huge city I have only TWO people caring guns that were not police officers. One was in a pawn shop and the other at the airport pick-up area. People are not walking around everywhere brandishing guns!

And no one is outside CVS watching for pregnancy test purchases.

OK defense over.

 

[Lula]

Ok so I came back to defend Texas in a very small way.

My 4th grade TX history lesson taught me:
They were once aligned with Mexico. They had to bribe people to move and settle here (luckily cattle thrived). They want to be there own country.

Texas talks big, about everything. The pride runs so deep, the flag is embossed on everything. It is not like any state I have ever lived in. They want national attention and be important. And, I think, at some point they will back down on the abortion law.

As for the new gun law. It sounds awful but living here in a huge city I have only TWO people caring guns that were not police officers. One was in a pawn shop and the other at the airport pick-up area. People are not walking around everywhere brandishing guns!

And no one is outside CVS watching for pregnancy test purchases.

OK defense over.

I've worked with abused/trafficked women. While you may be right that the "average" Texan is not lurking around CVS watching for pregnancy tests purchases, my concern is that abusers will use the new law as a way to further control and intimidate their victims. And the law has made it very difficult for anyone to intervene to help them.

 

[Jambalaya]

I'm afraid to look at this news. I really am. I mean, I know what's going on. It's just too awful to think about.

 

[Jambalaya]

I wish all women would rise up and say to the country's men, "No abortions? OK then! No s*x." If every woman implemented that in their own homes, all the men of the country would soon be marching for abortion and the male lawmakers would soon cave.

If ALL women went on a s*x strike, we could get anything we wanted. Cut men off from their reason for living (ha!) and we'd soon get a whole bunch of legislation done.

The above is a bitter joke, of course. But honestly, sometimes I think it's the only way.

 

[Jambalaya]

Imagine a country without any access to safe abortions. The social implications would be huge. We'd be back to the Fifties, with many women waiting until marriage to have s*x because you couldn't risk having a child alone. If I was a young woman who had no access to abortion, no way would I have sex without a full commitment, unless I earned enough to bring up a child alone. And as a young woman, I probably would not. In this way, banning abortions would be bad for men, too. It would be an unintended consequence for them.

With so many pregnancies happening that otherwise wouldn't progress, more women would be unable to pursue their dreams and have independence....the way the social fabric would change for women just doesn't bear thinking about.

 

[Lookinagain]

And no one is outside CVS watching for pregnancy test purchases.

Not yet.

Of course I was (hopefully) exaggerating, I would hope the "average" Texan is as horrified as those posting on this thread. But it's the anti-abortion militants who will be the ones reporting people on the "snitch" websites that have been set up, and probably not your average Texan. Who knows what ends they will eventually go to, either because of their "cause" or as others have said, because they are bounty hunters.

 

[mrs-b]

I wish all women would rise up and say to the country's men, "No abortions? OK then! No s*x." If every woman implemented that in their own homes, all the men of the country would soon be marching for abortion and the male lawmakers would soon cave.

If ALL women went on a s*x strike, we could get anything we wanted. Cut men off from their reason for living (ha!) and we'd soon get a whole bunch of legislation done.

The above is a bitter joke, of course. But honestly, sometimes I think it's the only way.

Jambalaya - and to everyone else considering this way forward -

Ever been in a relationship with a violent, abusive, bullying - or simply controlling male partner who thinks male physical 'persuasion' is a-ok in a relationship? Try denying those guys sex and see how you go. I'll meet you down at the ER when you turn up to get the bruises treated - IF you get let out of the house.

Men know this. Women have been raped in marriage/relationships time immemorial. They've been bullied, nagged, manipulated, and pushed into it as long as sex has been a thing. For some women, denying their partner is a possibility. For a lot of women, denying their partner sex is to take their well-being into their own hands.

I am a member of a private online forum for women who have or have had uterine cancer. I cannot TELL you the number of women who come onto the site asking how soon after a hysterectomy they can safely have sex, because their partner is pushing. Pushing, pushing, pushing. The most upsetting ones for me (and I mean oneS, not one) are the women who recount having sex IN THE HOSPITAL after their surgery.

Please. Any strategy that involves denying sex is not a good one.

ETA @Jambalaya - I post the above with all the respect in the world for you as an individual. I worked as a therapist with women and in dispute resolution for decades and this is the reality I saw. The whole "just cross your legs" thing never works. Just never. My apologies if I offended you - it was not my intent. My comments come out of deep sadness and a sense of desperation.

 

[redwood66]

The hellish perversity of it all is compounded by the draconian provision that even if you, the target of the lawsuit, win, you lo$e because

(i) Notwithstanding any other law, a court may not award costs or attorney's fees under the Texas Rules of Civil Procedure or any other rule adopted by the supreme court under Section 22.004, Government Code, to a defendant in an action brought under this section. [emphasis added].​

Subdivision (i) of Section 171.208:

Texas SB8 | 2021-2022 | 87th Legislature

Bill Text (2021-05-19) Relating to abortion, including abortions after detection of an unborn child's heartbeat; authorizing a private civil right of action. [Effective on 9/1/21]

legiscan.com

Regardless of anyone's views on abortion, encouragement to turn in one's neighbor is the most disgusting and frightful aspect of what has happened with this law. Everyone in every state should be worried about lawmakers who use this in any legislation.

 

[LightBright]

Supreme Court needs to consider this law immediately as it is an infringement on Roe v. Wade. IMO, this is an emergency.

 

[Lookinagain]

Supreme Court needs to consider this law immediately as it is an infringement on Roe V. Wade. IMO, this is an emergency.

That's the problem. They refused to block the law from going into effect based on procedural reasons. So now it seems we have to wait for an actual case where someone aiding and abetting is sued by a member of the public. Who knows when that will happen.

 

[Matata]

People are not walking around everywhere brandishing guns!

And no one is outside CVS watching for pregnancy test purchases.

Yet.

 

[Jambalaya]

ETA @Jambalaya - I post the above with all the respect in the world for you as an individual. I worked as a therapist with women and in dispute resolution for decades and this is the reality I saw. The whole "just cross your legs" thing never works. Just never. My apologies if I offended you - it was not my intent. My comments come out of deep sadness and a sense of desperation.

No, it's fine. Of course this wouldn't work in abusive relationships. Like I said, I was making a mirthless, bitter joke, because I can't believe what's happening.

Edited.

 

[Jambalaya]

One of the saddest aspects of the assault on reproductive rights is that desperate girls and women will attempt to end their pregnancies themselves, with tragic outcomes. 'Twas ever thus, in societies where easy, safe, legal access to abortion isn't available.

 

[Jambalaya]

Can the great “jerks” of Texas go after anyone who has donated money to help these women? If I donate from the state I live in can they sue me for $10,000? I’m going to call Planned Parenthood to find out what can be done to help. I imagine they are already putting plans in place to help women.

Just so I’m perfectly clear I’m in no way calling you a jerk @Gussie.

I'm super-tempted to donate and be loud and proud about it on social media. Let them try to sue me. Ohhhhh, just them them try. I don't live in Texas, and I think the idea of attempting to sue people in other states would soon be exposed as unenforceable and ridiculous. (According to the NYT article that Missy posted, this insane law says that people can sue others who help and live out of state.)

In fact, if millions of women across the country donated and were loud and proud about it, what are anti-choice Texans gonna do? They can't sue us all! Flooding Texan abortion clinics with donations would demonstrate that this part of the law, at least, is a toothless tiger, while benefitting the cause.

 

[missy]

I'm super-tempted to donate and be loud and proud about it on social media. Let them try to sue me. Ohhhhh, just them them try. I don't live in Texas, and I think the idea of attempting to sue people in other states would soon be exposed as unenforceable and ridiculous. (According to the NYT article that Missy posted, this insane law says that people can sue others who help and live out of state.)

In fact, if millions of women across the country donated and were loud and proud about it, what are anti-choice Texans gonna do? They can't sue us all!

I’m donating no question. No one is going to tell me who or what cause I can give money to.

 

[Jambalaya]

^Exactly. But be loud and proud about it! (If you have any social media.)

 

[Jambalaya]

Imagine if women around the world donated to Texas clinics! What would the anti-choice people in Texas do about that?

As 1939-1945 demonstrated, people who seek to restrict freedom are, ultimately, never going to win, because there are too many other people who love freedom.

 

[Matata]

'Twas ever thus,

I am becoming ever more a believer in the hypothesis that we are a computer simulation. We keep running round and round on the hamster wheel and making the same mistakes. Perhaps our program is infected with malware.

 

[Jambalaya]

^ Right?!

 

[missy]

Imagine if women around the world donated to Texas clinics!

Women and men all over the country (world might be a bit too optimistic but maybe) should donate. This is an issue that should matter not only to women but to the men who love them.

Some interesting data from June.

Key facts about the abortion debate in America

As the nation’s post-Roe chapter begins and the legal battle shifts to the states, here are key facts about Americans’ views on abortion.

www.pewresearch.org

 

[bludiva]

Ok so I came back to defend Texas in a very small way.

My 4th grade TX history lesson taught me:
They were once aligned with Mexico. They had to bribe people to move and settle here (luckily cattle thrived). They want to be there own country.

Texas talks big, about everything. The pride runs so deep, the flag is embossed on everything. It is not like any state I have ever lived in. They want national attention and be important. And, I think, at some point they will back down on the abortion law.

As for the new gun law. It sounds awful but living here in a huge city I have only TWO people caring guns that were not police officers. One was in a pawn shop and the other at the airport pick-up area. People are not walking around everywhere brandishing guns!

And no one is outside CVS watching for pregnancy test purchases.

OK defense over.

i live in a "blue" part of texas so we've been debating how much does the gun law actually affect us day to day, not too many people carry around here. but it still doesn't make it any less intimidating to see that one guy who had a pistol on his hip while shopping for a thanksgiving turkey at HEB (true story, happened 2 years ago...he shouldn't have been allowed to bring it in but everyone gave him a wide berth and said nothing). both of these laws are institutionalized bullying imho and that's not the city, state, country, world i want to live in. :/

 

[ShinyPink]

If ALL women went on a s*x strike, we could get anything we wanted. Cut men off from their reason for living (ha!) and we'd soon get a whole bunch of legislation done.

They still have hands....

 

[Jambalaya]

^ I gather it's not really the same!

Bette Midler has also called for a s*x strike!

 

[Matata]

I wonder if a majority of women in Texas are against the law. If so, they should do what the women in Iceland did but for longer than a day. Perhaps bringing the entire state to a standstill would motivate a rethink of the law.

The day Iceland's women went on strike

In 1975, the women of Iceland took a "day off" from their usual jobs - and relations between Icelandic men and women were never quite the same again.

www.bbc.com