Tell me about this sapphire...

[vintagelover229]

I'm having a ring custom made and they only use their own stones.

My question is can you tell me about this sapphire? I'm working on getting more photos-but as you can imagine rose cut sapphires aren't to common. The 2 options are the purple/pink sapphire or the blue one. This is a right hand ring and the color/size of the purple one isn't what I'm looking for.

The purple one is a single rose cut sapphire-1.16 carats, 7 mm in diameter. This is 675.00

The blue is a double rose cut-meaning both sides are cut the same. It's 1.03 carats, 6 mm and this is 285.00

This is my last piece for a very very very long time. Won't say never but with my lifestyle-I just don't have a want or need for anything else on my list.

This piece intentionally fulfills multiple "wants"
-rose cut
-sapphire
-bezel
-daily RHR
-immigration/push gift

Most of the funds are coming from the sale of a vintage watch-and some from other areas. So while funds are limited-I'm willing to sell/save to get the perfect piece since I can only do this once. I don't want to jump the gun on a forever piece if it's not 100% what I want.

Attached is the only photo I have so far. Since it's on a dark background and will be an inclosed bezel-I'm wondering if it will darken up at all.

This is to be set in yellow gold but the bezel will be platinum.
I'd prefer the color of kashmir but I realize I'm not anywhere close to that price point with my budget-let alone rose cut-and I can't source it myself.

Thoughts?

I do have a photo of a completed ring he's done with a similar colored sapphire that's larger and also rose cut. But I'd prefer not to share until my ring is complete.

 

[chrono]

The black background makes it very difficult to assess the stones. Are there other pictures of it on the hand or on something white?

 

[vintagelover229]

Chrono: thanks so much for the reply. I asked for a hand shot and for other angles so I can see the true color of the stone but haven't gotten them yet.

If it's that color blue I won't mind to much-although I wish it was darker-but my fear is it's more aquamarine in color since the background is dark already.

 

[LD]

For all the reasons you've stated that you want this ring to be a forever ring, you should rule out the purple sapphire because critically you've said it's not the colour you want. The whole point of buying a coloured stone is that you love the colour. So step away from that one

The other one? It's so difficult to see because it actually looks very very very pale - almost colourless - and the background is making it impossible to assess. On that background it looks to be either very windowed OR it's a very large tilt window (which is common in paler gems) but again, impossible to say with any accuracy on that photo and rose cuts do suffer from this also but, as you say, they're unusual.

I'm sensing this ring is very important to you so can I make a suggestion about some questions to ask the vendor? I would ask whether these are (a) natural and if yes, (b) has ANY treatment been applied? and (c) if you bought one would the vendor be willing to send it to AGL for a lab report? Now, I'm not suggesting you send it off (unless you want to) but the question is more to see what the response elicits. If you don't rule out the purple sapphire I would suggest getting it checked because the inclusions I can see have just aroused my spidey senses! The lack of inclusions in the other is also something to think about. Probably nothing to worry about but it's best to ask the questions!

 

[vintagelover229]

For all the reasons you've stated that you want this ring to be a forever ring, you should rule out the purple sapphire because critically you've said it's not the colour you want. The whole point of buying a coloured stone is that you love the colour. So step away from that one

The other one? It's so difficult to see because it actually looks very very very pale - almost colourless - and the background is making it impossible to assess. On that background it looks to be either very windowed OR it's a very large tilt window (which is common in paler gems) but again, impossible to say with any accuracy on that photo and rose cuts do suffer from this also but, as you say, they're unusual.

I'm sensing this ring is very important to you so can I make a suggestion about some questions to ask the vendor? I would ask whether these are (a) natural and if yes, (b) has ANY treatment been applied? and (c) if you bought one would the vendor be willing to send it to AGL for a lab report? Now, I'm not suggesting you send it off (unless you want to) but the question is more to see what the response elicits. If you don't rule out the purple sapphire I would suggest getting it checked because the inclusions I can see have just aroused my spidey senses! The lack of inclusions in the other is also something to think about. Probably nothing to worry about but it's best to ask the questions!

Thanks so much LD. I doubt he'd sell anything that was fake (he's respected quite highly here) and if it's heat treated I wouldn't mind but would expect it to be a bit darker than that with treatment. I suspect with the size/price that the color has affected it quite a bit. I'll keep you posted as soon as I get another email from him. If I haven't heard from him in a few days I plan on calling. He did manage to get 3 rose cut sapphires (one already in a ring) so perhaps he can source more.

I really appreicate the advice. I'll ask him about treatments when I hear back from him-don't want to overflow his inbox

 

[LD]

For all the reasons you've stated that you want this ring to be a forever ring, you should rule out the purple sapphire because critically you've said it's not the colour you want. The whole point of buying a coloured stone is that you love the colour. So step away from that one

The other one? It's so difficult to see because it actually looks very very very pale - almost colourless - and the background is making it impossible to assess. On that background it looks to be either very windowed OR it's a very large tilt window (which is common in paler gems) but again, impossible to say with any accuracy on that photo and rose cuts do suffer from this also but, as you say, they're unusual.

I'm sensing this ring is very important to you so can I make a suggestion about some questions to ask the vendor? I would ask whether these are (a) natural and if yes, (b) has ANY treatment been applied? and (c) if you bought one would the vendor be willing to send it to AGL for a lab report? Now, I'm not suggesting you send it off (unless you want to) but the question is more to see what the response elicits. If you don't rule out the purple sapphire I would suggest getting it checked because the inclusions I can see have just aroused my spidey senses! The lack of inclusions in the other is also something to think about. Probably nothing to worry about but it's best to ask the questions!

Thanks so much LD. I doubt he'd sell anything that was fake (he's respected quite highly here) and if it's heat treated I wouldn't mind but would expect it to be a bit darker than that with treatment. I suspect with the size/price that the color has affected it quite a bit. I'll keep you posted as soon as I get another email from him. If I haven't heard from him in a few days I plan on calling. He did manage to get 3 rose cut sapphires (one already in a ring) so perhaps he can source more.

I really appreicate the advice. I'll ask him about treatments when I hear back from him-don't want to overflow his inbox

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting they were fake - just that you ought to make sure! Unfortunately you can't tell whether a treatment has been applied by the colour (although vivid colours can arouse suspicion). It's worth checking anyway!

 

[chrono]

There's no way to tell if a stone is heated or not by its colour. There are both very dark and very light coloured heated stones.

 

[vintagelover229]

LD & Chrono:
I really appreicate all of your help. Pardon my ignorance on treatments and colored stones in general.

I might as well out the vendor-I had hoped it to be a surprise but alas-it's just the internet and the final piece will still be amazing despite anyone knowing before hand. I'm having a few issues selling my watch-it's hard to get quotes when they can't see it in person-but alas I will get it sold here shortly!

Jim told me that the sapphire is heat treated-which doesn't bother me at all. He's also going to be at the Tuscon gemshow in a few weeks and will check out rose cut sapphires while he is there and see if he can source a darker one at a good price point.

He's already created one ring with a slightly larger rose cut sapphire from the same source. He's given me an additional photo on a white backdrop as well as one of the photos of the completed ring (which btw is for sale-just out of budget lol) and it does have a nice color to it.

Here are the additional photos as well as my ring sketch.

 

[LD]

I have no idea who Jim is!!!

If the stone is heated then it may well be treated further I'm afraid.

Just a note but that last photo, if it's on a white background, it's horribly inaccurate. The background looks blueish/grey. I would ask to see that stone on the back of his hand. Honestly that's got to be one of the worst photos if that's supposed to be on a white background. I'm sure it's not intentional but it most definitely doesn't tell you anything about the colour of the stone. I'm presuming that's the blue and not the purple one???

 

[chrono]

This is from James Meyer, is it not? I don't how good he is at picking the right stone but I know he's not a good gemstone photographer if the white background looks grayish blue. Perhaps Kenny or VL can help clean up the picture for colour accuracy. As it is, everything looks gray blue and I know it's not. Guess JM's coming out of retirement to do this special project for you?

 

[ChrisA222]

I admit---I know almost nothing about rose-cut stones, aside from the pavillion is flat. LD's comment about one of them being windowed confused me....

Wouldn't any Rose-Cut stone, with a lack of a culet/pointed pavillion, have a window?

 

[vintagelover229]

I have no idea who Jim is!!!

If the stone is heated then it may well be treated further I'm afraid.

Just a note but that last photo, if it's on a white background, it's horribly inaccurate. The background looks blueish/grey. I would ask to see that stone on the back of his hand. Honestly that's got to be one of the worst photos if that's supposed to be on a white background. I'm sure it's not intentional but it most definitely doesn't tell you anything about the colour of the stone. I'm presuming that's the blue and not the purple one???

Well he didn't say it was white but it's much whiter than the gray that the first photo is on...it could be picking up the lighting in the room or something though. He didn't provide hand shots and I'm hesitant to request one after getting his email without them when I requested it in the last email.

Chrono:yes it's James Meyer-he's not retired per say-he still puts pieces up on his site irregulary and will make some custom pieces using his own stones. I didn't realize this until a recent SMTR thread with an e-ring of his that wasn't on his site (I check semi frequently).

I had planned on contacting him about making a rose cut sapphire ring and before I could he posted one out of my budget for sale. I emailed him and he had these two other stones he could work with.

He didn't disclose any other treatments on this stone-the only one I'm considering is the light blue one which he confirmed has been heat treated.

A snipe from his last email:
The sapphire material in both these stones came from the same place (in the ground, that is) and it is not the most saturated material, but what I was able to find.  It is heat treated (which doesn't bother me, I'm looking for beauty and value) and has a very lively "clear crystal" look... the pink sapphire I sent you a photo of before is murky by comparison, but has more saturated color.


He did say he'd try and source a more saturated sapphire that's rose cut at the gem show. Hopefully it won't be to crazy expensive compared to this one-which for the size is affordable.

Keep in mind the blue sapphire is a double rose cut-he said both sides are cut the same. The purple one has the flat back-which I'm not really considering.

 

[LD]

I admit---I know almost nothing about rose-cut stones, aside from the pavillion is flat. LD's comment about one of them being windowed confused me....

Wouldn't any Rose-Cut stone, with a lack of a culet/pointed pavillion, have a window?

No. Like everything else it depends on the cut.

 

[chrono]

Rose cuts are huge light leakers, be it diamonds or coloured gemstones. They are a very early cut style that was done using simple tools in order to maximize rough material. Unless it has a backing material, it doesn't reflect colour back to the eye well, showing a lot of tilt window easily. It does not necessarily show a window.

 

[LD]

Rose cuts are huge light leakers, be it diamonds or coloured gemstones. They are a very early cut style that was done using simple tools in order to maximize rough material. Unless it has a backing material, it doesn't reflect colour back to the eye well, showing a lot of tilt window easily. It does not necessarily show a window.

+1

 

[vintagelover229]

Since the stone will be a fully included bezel do you think something could be foiled underneath to enhance the color and allow light to be reflected back? I'm not opposed to it as long as it's not something that can be damaged/accidently removed some how.

I really want a rose cut but perhaps I should be more open to other shapes as long as they have the color I'm looking for. I love the look of the completed rose cut ring but I wish I could tell the color more accurately.

 

[vintagelover229]

Any idea on where to find photos of blue gold? Perhaps a thin plating onset where the rose cut will be bezeled will enhance the color a bit-if he's able and willing that is.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_gold_(jewellery)

 

[chrono]

Vintagelover,
You want the best of both worlds, a specific old cut and good colour but I'm afraid it is not possible unless you pay $$$ to recut a fabulously coloured sapphire (the stone will also lose a good bit of its saturation due to the cut design). The stone also has to be incredibly clean as this cut shows everything clearly. A backing will definitely enhance colour but the downside is that crud will build up underneath which you cannot reach! Have you shown JM the colour of sapphire you are aiming for? This route might be easier as he will now have a reference colour when he's out in Tucson.

 

[LD]

Since the stone will be a fully included bezel do you think something could be foiled underneath to enhance the color and allow light to be reflected back? I'm not opposed to it as long as it's not something that can be damaged/accidently removed some how.

I really want a rose cut but perhaps I should be more open to other shapes as long as they have the color I'm looking for. I love the look of the completed rose cut ring but I wish I could tell the color more accurately.

It's possible but (and this is just a guess), the light blue sapphire will look very much like a pale aquamarine. What I think would happen is that you wouldn't see straight through the stone to your finger but a backing (say white gold for arguments sake) would reflect the stone back to you but it wouldn't necessarily enhance the colour by much. There are of course cleaning issues with this type of setting which can be overcome.

Can you post a colour of what you want? Forget the cut for a minute, just the colour. If Jim is going to Tucson and will be looking around for you, I would strongly suggest you send him colour swatches also.

Edit: It appears Chrono and I were thinking the same thing!!!

 

[chrono]

Any idea on where to find photos of blue gold? Perhaps a thin plating onset where the rose cut will be bezeled will enhance the color a bit-if he's able and willing that is.

This is not advisable as the metal alloy is brittle. Since this is a very special piece, do not work hard to make the stone pretty or you'll never be happy with it in the long run. The stone has to be lovely (what YOU want) right off the bat.

 

[minousbijoux]

VL: I would urge you to take a moment to think about why you are thinking rose cut - what does it offer over traditional modern cuts (I was going to say traditional cuts, but then I realized that rose cuts would be in that category, lol! I'm talking about cuts with a faceted pavilion)? Color will not be as intense (by that I mean saturated) because the stone won't be as deep, it would not have the same sparkle and scintillation, and I believe that if he is seeking potential candidates in Tucson, he will be limited by the smaller universe of rose cuts.

The one thing I could potentially see as a reason for a rose cut is that since the stones are shallower than conventional cuts, maybe it is beneficial to the design - that is, perhaps a shallow stone is necessary because the design lays relatively flush with the finger, if ykwim.

As we denizens of colored stones are often saying, color is a personal thing. You should strive to get as close as possible to your ideal, keeping in mind that any stone will darken in a bezel setting. So are these close to what you want/like? Because IMO neither one is highly saturated and they may be too dark when set. Do you want a bright color, or are you going for a subtler, more mysterious color with occasional flashes/sparks of color?

Unless you can't live without the rose cut or its a design impossibility to consider other cuts, I would devote some time in your search to see other stones, both for color and for impact.

 

[vintagelover229]

Vintagelover,
You want the best of both worlds, a specific old cut and good colour but I'm afraid it is not possible unless you pay $$$ to recut a fabulously coloured sapphire (the stone will also lose a good bit of its saturation due to the cut design). The stone also has to be incredibly clean as this cut shows everything clearly. A backing will definitely enhance colour but the downside is that crud will build up underneath which you cannot reach! Have you shown JM the colour of sapphire you are aiming for? This route might be easier as he will now have a reference colour when he's out in Tucson.

Chrono&LD: Thanks so much for the info. I don't want the "best" color-I just want it to have color. I'm afraid this stone appears quite light and the hue almost nonexistent. But if it's the same color as the sapphire he has already set-I actually quite like that stone and it's not a terrible color-and with his years of selecting gemstone/setting combinations I do trust his judgement.

Thanks for the info on blue gold plating-that idea was a bad one I guess

I really don't have a set color of sapphire I'm aiming for. There are so many different shades and varieties that I enjoy that I'm pretty open in terms of color. As long as it's not so light that it looks like aquamarine.

minousbijoux: The reason I have chosen rose cuts is because they are very unique. The sapphire Jim currently has is very affordable-and if I can stick around that price point and get a slightly darker sapphire-but not so dark it becomes the black murky sapphires that you see frequently in the mall stores I will be happy. I'm not *dead* set on a rose cut-I'd consider some other unique cut-or even a precision cut of smaller size/color-but for some reason I have fallen in love with rose cuts and would really like to have this ring satisfy that want. I'd consider a cushion or an asscher cut as well but I fear with a good color-even with heat treatment-won't be an affordable option. I am really wanting a JM piece while I still can get one-although his son does very very similar work.

I'll link to a few sapphires that I like-but Jim doesn't work with outside stones so even if I do find one at a good price point it's doubtful he can get it but perhaps he can find one at the gem show.

This one is sold-but great price point and good color (first one-Montana)
http://www.precisiongem.com/Gemstones/rapidcart/sapphire.html

This one isn't sold and is a good price as well
http://www.mastercutgems.com/viewgem.php?gemid=5898&id=22318




I really like the color of this one-also a good price but also sold
http://www.mastercutgems.com/viewgem.php?gemid=6682&id=24983

I've seen a bunch of cut ones from Sri Lanka and Madagascar sapphires that I like the color of but they are a bit out of price range-one site http://www.spectralgems.net/A-corundum.html doesn't list prices so I'm not sure if any are even close to the same price point.

 

[chrono]

VintageLover,
Yes, I am concerned the colour of the blue sapphire you are considering looks rather aquamarine like. I took a closer look at the ring you like and noted two main things, which I am not sure you are aware of. Both of these observations might skew your perception of what you think you are seeing.
1. Part of the colour (at least half) of the stone in the picture actually comes from the darker gray blue background the ring is on. See how perfectly well it matches up? This is due to the tilt window of the rose cut. It gives the perception of the stone being a darker blue than it really is. Now that you can actually see how large the tilt window is, will you be happy with such a look?
2. The true colour of the stone in the ring is the lighter outer rim. It is a very light grayish blue colour.

 

[LD]

Looking at all of the links you've provided, I very very very much doubt that the sapphire you've been shown will come anywhere close to that colour. In essence you're looking for a denim blue or a medium dark blue and I would also think you don't mind if there's a grey modifier as some of the links have it? That actually makes it easier because sapphires in a round in that colour are not difficult to obtain. The issue is finding a rose cut one!

So, a couple of suggestions, would Jim be prepared to work with Gene (his was the first link you put above)? If yes, perhaps Gene already has some material that he could cut in the same design as you've linked to above OR maybe even cut a variation of a rose cut?

If not, why not send those links to Jim so that he knows the general colour to look for in Tucson? It may be an idea to ask him to keep an eye out for a round cut in the colour you like also so you have a fallback.

Rose cut is unfortunately not a great cut for a coloured gemstone because of the light leakage but if you like it, you like it! A great cut one can look fantastic but it'll be a challenge to find.

 

[vintagelover229]

VintageLover,
Yes, I am concerned the colour of the blue sapphire you are considering looks rather aquamarine like. I took a closer look at the ring you like and noted two main things, which I am not sure you are aware of. Both of these observations might skew your perception of what you think you are seeing.
1. Part of the colour (at least half) of the stone in the picture actually comes from the darker gray blue background the ring is on. See how perfectly well it matches up? This is due to the tilt window of the rose cut. It gives the perception of the stone being a darker blue than it really is. Now that you can actually see how large the tilt window is, will you be happy with such a look?
2. The true colour of the stone in the ring is the lighter outer rim. It is a very light grayish blue colour.

That's my fear too-I don't mind the outter ring color that much but can see the backdrop reflecting the color back. If it's going to be so light it's aquamarine like then I'll have to find another option-be it a rose cut gem or not.

I'll link him to the color of sapphires I like and hopefully he can find something. The sketch he drew up was based on the rose cut design-I figure he'd draw up something different if another stone is used.

I realize size/saturation/color/clarity/region/cutter all have huge impacts on the price of sapphires but ice seen ones for 150$-300.00 that are .75-1 carat and heat treated on the CS vendor list that I like. Do you think there will be options like those at the gem show?

 

[VapidLapid]

Minous, I am not thinking about rose cuts.

 

[pregcurious]

I love the idea of sapphire rose cuts.

I took your picture of the blue sapphire on a white background into Photoshop, and did an "auto color" adjustment. I did not manually play with anything, but let Photoshop do it automatically. This is what I got. You could send it back to JM and ask him how close this color is to what he sees in real life.

 

[vintagelover229]

I love the idea of sapphire rose cuts.

I took your picture of the blue sapphire on a white background into Photoshop, and did an "auto color" adjustment. I did not manually play with anything, but let Photoshop do it automatically. This is what I got. You could send it back to JM and ask him how close this color is to what he sees in real life.

Thanks so much for doing that! If that's the color I don't mind it at all-I think it will darken up just slightly when set and while IRS not super blue-that's darker than aquamarine and I actually like the color. Is it my ideal blue? Nope-but I think it's unique and not a bad color at all. I'll email it to Jim and see what he says.

 

[vintagelover229]

Looking at all of the links you've provided, I very very very much doubt that the sapphire you've been shown will come anywhere close to that colour. In essence you're looking for a denim blue or a medium dark blue and I would also think you don't mind if there's a grey modifier as some of the links have it? That actually makes it easier because sapphires in a round in that colour are not difficult to obtain. The issue is finding a rose cut one!

So, a couple of suggestions, would Jim be prepared to work with Gene (his was the first link you put above)? If yes, perhaps Gene already has some material that he could cut in the same design as you've linked to above OR maybe even cut a variation of a rose cut?

LD: sorry I missed your post-baby is awake

I thought about contacting someone in regards to cutting something but I'd have to check to see if Jim would use it-and also hope that it would still be affordable in terms to budget friendly. I'll email him to see if he has any rough that could work and to see if it'd be affordable to do so.

If it is am option I'll email Jim and see if he'd consider using that stone-and perhaps we can arrange it where it's not my stone but a stone I'd pay him for and he'd get himself so it would be *his* inventory.

I'll keep you posted. Is there anyone else I could email about custom cutting an affordable stone? I'd like it to be under 400.00-and the more inexpensive the better-I'd like a half carat to a carat with that budget.
If not, why not send those links to Jim so that he knows the general colour to look for in Tucson? It may be an idea to ask him to keep an eye out for a round cut in the colour you like also so you have a fallback.

Rose cut is unfortunately not a great cut for a coloured gemstone because of the light leakage but if you like it, you like it! A great cut one can look fantastic but it'll be a challenge to find.

LS

 

[chrono]

Pregcurious,
I bow to your superiour skill with photoshop.

Vintage Lover,
I've circled the base colour of the sapphire. If this is what you like, then all is good. To me, that is the colour of an aquamarine though. Is there any way for you to see the stone in person before he goes ahead with the custom work?