shape
carat
color
clarity

synthetic diamonds

Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.

mike04456

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Messages
1,441
From this:




All Good News At Diavik




"Diavik diamond mine is generating about 20,000 carats of diamonds per day..."




This is, incidentally, somewhat more than Gemesis''s current annual production of synthetics, and more than twice Apollo''s projected annual production. Someone explain to me again how these guys are going to put De Beers out of business? /idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif/idealbb/images/smilies/11.gif/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif
 

pqcollectibles

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 22, 2003
Messages
3,441
I would, if I could, LawBen!
9.gif
11.gif
10.gif
 

Griffin

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 30, 2003
Messages
239
Is that gross output, or net cutable gem? 20,000 carats is huge in any respect, but I'd be interested in the breakdowns.
Output varies a lot, with some mines generating most of the weight in micro-diamonds, some very little. Some really exceptional pipes can generate 35% or better of the larger crytals gem grade, but many pipes are almost all industrial.
I doubt that more than a couple dozen carats a day of that are gem grade that could generate cut stones of anywhere near a carat, but that is still an extremely impressive mine.....
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
18,423
Good point LG.

The wired article was printed last week in my town.

I wrote this to the editor:

The end of the diamond industry was foretold by a diamond 'expert' who could not tell a real diamond from a fake ("Gem Warfare" 21-1-2004). Synthetic rubies and sapphires have been mass produced since 1892, diamonds since 1955 and hard to detect emerald, rubies and sapphires in 1938 and 1974 respectively. Detection and proper disclosure of synthetic gems and illicit treatments is the Gemmologist’s role. Because the job is done well, synthetics sell for a fraction of the price of natural gems.

Women, as suggested in the article, may buy larger synthetic diamonds for themselves, but they will still reject a fake engagement ring.

Gemesis diamonds are yellow, the least popular color for a gem. Icy colourless rocks stir some primeval feminine gene. Growing a yellow diamond takes only a few days (and an enormous amount of pollution). Removing the yellow tint takes millions of years of impurity migration at high temperature and pressure. Apollo’s low pressure process makes diamonds more suited to electronic uses. They are too thin and flat for cutting into gems.

Provided we Gemmologists keep pace with detection, and consumer protection laws ensure full and proper disclosure, synthetic gems will continue their role of introducing new consumers to the pleasures of real jewels.
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
tell me again that diamonds are rare?


"20,000 carats of diamonds per day" and thats just one mine.
 

valeria101

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 29, 2003
Messages
15,809
I imagine that 5000 is number of cts not $, otherwise the whole industry would be rather petty Sub-Saharan community... Where are those intriguing numbers from, Garry?

I surely hope that the popularity of white diamonds does not get to rely on some "primeval feminine gene". That would surely be the end of it, fakes or no fakes ! Hm... I surely like that tremendous line about polution. He, he!
2.gif
 

mike04456

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Messages
1,441


----------------
On 1/26/2004 11:33:42 PM Griffin wrote:





Is that gross output, or net cutable gem? 20,000 carats is huge in any respect, but I'd be interested in the breakdowns.

----------------
It's gross output. Worldwide for mines, I think the ratios are around 70% industrial, 20% near-gem, and 5% gem quality (marine and alluvial sources are as much as 95% gem quality because the industrials don't survive alluvial transport). The Canadian mines are at the high end of rough quality as I understand it but within those ranges.
 

Griffin

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 30, 2003
Messages
239
I'm not sure, but from my conversations with the Gemesis folks I didn't think they were limited to any specific color.
We did pick up blue as well as yellow from them, and I got the impression that they were starting with colored only because of the higher relative value as compared to white. I don't remember if anyone said as much or not, but the impression I got was that white was just as possible.
Anyone know for sure?
 

Griffin

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 30, 2003
Messages
239
BTW, I thought it was odd and kind of cool that the corpses that are being turned into diamonds usually come out strongly colored, usually blue but each one is different apparently.
I wonder what controls what color diamond one's cremains will create?

And just what is an appropriate mounting for Grandma, anyway?
naughty.gif
 

knowverylittle

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 5, 2003
Messages
98
Cultured diamonds are blue or yellow right now. Why? Because fancies are rare so command a price premium. One of their websites (Apollo/ Gemesis?) states that they should start selling white stones in 2004. (this info is based purely on information found via Google, I have nothing to do with the Diamond industry)

It will be interesting to see how this market plays out. If Gemesis et-al can promote the conflict free + anti-DeBeers sentiment they could do well, especially if the economy stays in poor shape. Today, they are perhaps building their businesses before trying to go tête-à-tête with DeBeers. DeBeers has shown it can do amazing things with marketing - logic says they will win by launching a relentless mega-bucks advertising campaign. Why are Rolexes so desirable when a $1.50 digital watch keeps better time? Look in the front cover of any Newsweek/ Time magazine... Big advertising bucks.

Before too long, many more companies will start making cultured Diamonds for Jewelery. If these Diamonds are sold in bulk they will become comparatively worthless, better to milk the market now and take 25%(??) of the equivalent Diamonds' value. Look at the history of rubies and sapphires for an indication of what is most likely to happen.

Buy a synthetic now and odds are you will feel foolish in a few years time. On the other hand: buy a real diamond and you could be funding all manner of ghastly things from Angloa to al Qaeda.
errrr.gif
 

Griffin

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 30, 2003
Messages
239
>buy a real diamond and you could be funding all manner of ghastly things from Angloa to >al Qaeda.


Or even worse, De Beers!
naughty.gif
 

glitterata

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
4,259
I have it on pretty good authority that yellow is easy to produce, and white is really hard. Blue is also hard, but more profitable than white because natural blue diamonds sell at such a premium that they can still sell the blue synthetics at high enough prices to make it worthwhile to produce them. The problem with whites is that, at least until recently, they've been technically hard to make, and so costly to make that they would have had to price them too high--too close to natural diamonds. Who would want to buy a synthetic if you could get a natural for close to the same price?
 

knowverylittle

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 5, 2003
Messages
98
Is this something that will be solved with time or will they always be cost intensive? i.e. once the R&D into the machines are paid for can they mass produce them for peanuts or are there fixed costs that will always make white expensive?
 

Nicrez

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
3,230
Isn't it true that the actual output from most of the mines in Africa and Russia is basically inhibitted by the control mechanisms of the DeBeers cartel? From what I have been told by various people there are more than enough diamonds for everyone who would want one, but the rough stones are being held back in careful control in order to regulate the market prices for diamonds in order to generate the greatest profit without disrupting demand for them. Basically they advertise the diamond's desirability and status, but control the amount in the market to a totlerable shortage to induce more people to spend more on a stone that would probably be worth half the price, if all the stones where cut and hit market.
 

Nicrez

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
3,230
My bottom line, Hooray for synthetics if they can make a convincable white stone...As for engagement rings, people shouldn't concentrate on the ring so much, but yes, it's so much nicer to know your "rock" is the real thing, as you hope your relationship is. Women can be funny that way. Synthetics can go a long way for Oscars time...

Or engagements rings for somewhat serious celebs when their estimated shelf life is under two months (Bennifer, anyone?) He could have saved some money on a 6.1 carat blue synthetic...
1.gif
Does JLo still have the ring?
 

knowverylittle

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 5, 2003
Messages
98
>>Does JLo still have the ring?
It is probably on eBay by now
 

Nicrez

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
3,230
Here's my question...who would buy it? Why would someone want to publicly admit to having a ring that was formerly JLo's and Ben's after such a predicted split? And if these people exist, do they have the $1M+ to purchase it...? What happens to celeb stones after they are "retired for use"? Anyone know?
 

mike04456

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Messages
1,441


----------------
On 1/27/2004 9:40:08 PM knowverylittle wrote:











Cultured diamonds are blue or yellow right now. Why? Because fancies are rare so command a price premium.

----------------


No, no, no--they are yellow because those are by far the easiest synthetics to make because of the chemistry involved. Yellow diamonds get their color from nitrogen impurities, and high levels of nitrogen make the diamond crystalize faster. And--since nitrogen makes up about 60% of the atmosphere--keeping it out of the process is the problem, not adding it. So yellow is basically the "default" color. To get other colors (or colorless), you have to add what's called a "nitrogen getter" (a substance that will absorb the nitrogen and keep it out of the diamond crystal) to the mix. The problem: this slows down the growth rate by a factor of about 8 (i.e. about 2 mg/hr vs. 16 mg/hr), which is why, up to now, other colors were just not cost effective. Gemesis has apparently refined the process to make it more efficient, but I expect their colorless diamonds will be more expensive than their yellows. It's an open question whether the market will support that since it's the reverse with natural diamonds.



If you want a blue diamond, you have to add boron to the mix, but getting other colors like red, pink, green, etc. requires post-growth treatment like heating and/or irradiation--they don't grow that way.

 

mike04456

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Messages
1,441


----------------
On 1/28/2004 11:49:47 AM Nicrez wrote:





Here's my question...who would buy it? Why would someone want to publicly admit to having a ring that was formerly JLo's and Ben's after such a predicted split? And if these people exist, do they have the $1M+ to purchase it...? What happens to celeb stones after they are 'retired for use'? Anyone know?
----------------
Many, many important gems (perhaps most) are sold confidentially for security reasons, and there is certainly a market for diamonds of that nature. It will probably be unset and just sold for what it is, without the celebrity connection.
 

mike04456

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Messages
1,441


----------------
On 1/28/2004 9:56:12 AM Nicrez wrote:





Isn't it true that the actual output from most of the mines in Africa and Russia is basically inhibitted by the control mechanisms of the DeBeers cartel?
----------------
It's not as true as it used to be. At its peak, De Beers controlled more than 90% of the market for rough diamonds. Now, it's about 50% by value and dropping every year. There are a number of big players in the rough diamond market these days, and there is definitely some real competition going on now.
 

Nicrez

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
3,230
Good point. I WOULD buy the 6.1 pink diamond, but NOT JLo's ring...I suppose that is why some of the most extraordinary diamonds of our times have matching histroies of cutting, recutting, settings and resettings...

Hey LawGem, any good guesson who you think would be the best candidate to purchase that stone?
2.gif


By the way, how DO you know so much about the process? It's fascinating!
 

godiva

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
Messages
47
Lawgem,
What do you know about the diamonds coming out of Israel?
I've been told by a few stores that their diamonds are imported from Israel. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Or does it matter?
 

mike04456

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Messages
1,441


----------------
On 1/28/2004 12:43:38 PM Nicrez wrote:





Hey LawGem, any good guesson who you think would be the best candidate to purchase that stone?
2.gif


----------------

If I knew such things (and I'm not saying I do
2.gif
), I certainly wouldn't name names.
 

mike04456

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Messages
1,441


----------------
On 1/28/2004 12:51:47 PM godiva wrote:





Lawgem,
What do you know about the diamonds coming out of Israel?
I've been told by a few stores that their diamonds are imported from Israel. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Or does it matter?
----------------
Israel is one of the major cutting centers. There are good and bad Israeli manufacturers, so it's really neither here nor there. I would say, very generally, the quality is better than India but not as good as Antwerp or New York. But there are plenty of exceptions in each location.
 

knowverylittle

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 5, 2003
Messages
98
>>No, no, no--they are yellow because those are by far the easiest synthetics to make because of the chemistry involved.

Thanks for the clarification. Wish I could find the website that was selling blue and yellow Apollo diamonds. They suggested the reasons I gave. Darn sales and marketing people, why would they lie to us?

In almost any industry production costs tumble and I think that in time their white ones will be competetive too.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
18,423
diamonds from Antwerp are mostly cut in India.
India cuts the worst and the best diamonds in the world.

De Beers never really controlled the market as the press had you believe, and most of the dollars spent on diamonds is from wealthy folk, many of whom like what De beers stand for - prosperity and success.
de beers is smaller and less influential these days. But they are still trying hard to promote the entire industry and see their role as a benevolent custodian. they are not a bad mob.

Read the trade news about them from rapaport at diamonds.net news site - there are hundreds of very balanced (either way) articles - especially look at the 1998 - 2001 period.
 

Nicrez

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
3,230
Call me absolutely fascinated, but since I started on this project of finding the right stone, I have become almost obsessed with finding out more about these mysteriously sparkly rocks that command some people's yearly salary...I bought 4 books off Amazon regarding diamonds... anyone know if these are good reads, informationally, or any suggestions for others?

1. Discoveries Diamonds and Precious Stones by Patrick Voillot

2. Diamond: The History of a Cold-Blooded Love Affair by Matthew Hart

3. Diamonds for Profit by Fred Cuellar

4. The Nature of Diamonds by George E. Harlow
 

Griffin

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 30, 2003
Messages
239
>But they are still trying hard to promote the entire industry and see their role as a benevolent custodian. they are not a bad mob.<

Hmmm. Historically, Geologists who have chosen to work on non-DeBeers diamond prospecting have been proven to be hundreds of times more likely to "fall" out of helicopters. Enough it became a joke among geologists apparently.
Isn't the US Government still pissed at them over a number of things including espionage and sabotage of American programs during WWII, stuff with the Nazis, etc?
I know they were formed from Cecil Rhodes genocidal rampage through Africa in the first place. That was both criminal, brutal, and organized - an auspicious start.
"Mob" seems accurate.
 

DiamondExpert

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2003
Messages
1,245
Nicrez:

My opinion on your selections - #3 - mostly claptrap; #4 - One of the better generalist books.

Here are a couple more you might find interesting: Diamonds by Burton (2ed. 1972), a great ref. for historical info. The "bible" of fancy colored diamonds - Collecting and Classifying Coloured Diamonds by Hofer. The Last Empire by Kanfer for an overview of African diamond history. Barren Lands by Krajick for the search and development of Canadian diamond fields.
 
Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
Be a part of the community Get 3 HCA Results
Top