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Supplying Loose stones

mouseclock

Rough_Rock
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I have many different items for the loose precious gemstones and thus, wanted to learn new channels. Currently, my only market is local retail stores so it is too limited. And as they are loose stones, they obviously don't have certificates.

What channels or methods can there be suggested. Are there any good trading platform ?
 

chrono

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There is Etsy, EBay or set up your own website.
 

theredspinel

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I thimk it's easier to have loose stones certified then set stones. If you can and it's viable for the stones, maybe you could get certificates. As a consumer I value it highly :D
 

minousbijoux

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mouseclock|1452700461|3975411 said:
I have many different items for the loose precious gemstones and thus, wanted to learn new channels. Currently, my only market is local retail stores so it is too limited. And as they are loose stones, they obviously don't have certificates.

What channels or methods can there be suggested. Are there any good trading platform ?
I'm not sure why this would be the case? I would suggest that any stone of value can achieve a greater sales price as a result of securing a lab report from a reputable, well-regarded, lab.
 

PrecisionGem

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theredspinel|1452702211|3975431 said:
I thimk it's easier to have loose stones certified then set stones. If you can and it's viable for the stones, maybe you could get certificates. As a consumer I value it highly :D
I think a lab report only makes sense for certain stones. AGL just sent out their new price list, and the prices are higher, then when you factor in shipping both ways to NY, it really does add cost to the stone. Is the buyer always willing to pay this extra cost? I don't think so.

A basic Prestige report is not $150, a Prestige Grading report, which really provides the most for consumers who are not experienced in color grading, for a 3 cut stone is $525. Add in $50 for shipping, and in many cases the report cost more than the stone.

Unless the stone is over a few thousand dollars, I don't think these reports make sense, nor are the average customer willing to pay for them.

Why the original posted made the comment that "they are loose stones, they obviously don't have certificates", I don't know. Maybe he was referring to the value of the stones not warenting the cost of the report.

One last thing: The word "certificate" or "certified stone" is often used here, and that is not really correct. These lab reports don't certify anything. They are reports on findings and called "reports".
 

mastercutgems

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I will agree with Gene as the prices for reports are on the rise much like everything ... Sad but true and buying your own equipment to test with is also not a good investment unless you plan on being in this for the long haul of 10+ years or more as your return will be slow in coming back home. I know if it is like with most of us cutters you will have an RI tester, Specific Gravity contraption, dichroscope, 100X dark field microscope, digital scanning polarizing spectroscope, hardness testers, etc. etc. so that in itself is another 5 grand plus and all the GIA tech manuals, and books galore...

It does get costly and then at the end of the day no one wants your opinion they want an independent lab's report/opinion and with us cutters that is fine but you have to draw the line in when you send a gem off. To me if in doubt and it is over 500 in cost I send it off; IF and there that big word IF is again; IF the gem is pretty and you think it will sell. At this point in the game I have approximately 12k invested in AGL and GIA lab reports in the vault... So it can get expensive but unless you cut it from the rough in crystal form with all its lovely striations, etc. or it has a inclusion not creatable by man and cost warrants report vs no report; well you can see where this is going :)

There is no easy answer :(
Sorry but you see how us sellers/cutters minds work as we are responsible for our own reputation and we do things many times to satisfy our clients minds as we already know what the gem mineral is; but there is so much darn scamming in the world we go that extra mile to make sure our clients have peace of mind in the transaction...

Sorry for the long winded answer but it gives you food for thought as to how things work in selling a colored gemstone.

Most Respectfully;

Dana Reynolds

ASG Certified
Supreme Master Gem Cutter
#96CGE42
 

theredspinel

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I totally agree PrecisionGem. It's not generally worth it on very cheap stones. However once, I was about to buy a deep blue unheated aqua and I definetly wanted it certified that it wasn't heated. It did cost under £1000 because of the small size so was 'cheap' in that sense (a few hundred pounds isn't cheap to me!!) But because it was a colour that's usually found in heated stones I wanted to know for sure and 'prove' that my stone was unheated.

In situations like that I'm definitely after cirtificates.
 

PrecisionGem

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I'm not sure that a lab can distinguish a heated from unheated aquamarine. Additionally, there is not difference in value. The only stones where an unheated stone is valued higher than a heated one is really in sapphire and ruby. Tanzanite, zircon, aquamarine etc, there is no difference, and most of these stones the temperature they are heated to is very low compared to a sapphire.
 

theredspinel

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At the time I was looking into it I remember reading certain labs can detect heat treatment in aqua. Sorry can't remember the details now, my brain only holds info on a 'if i need it hold it, if not bin it' basis :roll:

I don't really care about heat so much for the value of the stone (although I'd not want to get over charged...but who does?!) but I genuinely care about if my stone that I own has been heated to look like that. I don't like it :cry:

The only human intervention I can handle is mining it out and cleaning it up for me...not cooking it to change its colour!!! :mad:

I understand this is totally my own weird 'thing' but I respect stones that havnt been heated much more then ones that have.

ETA Just to furthur clarify, I own a piece of pallasite peridot. Now I know that was heated upon entering the earth's atmosphere...but I'm ok with that because it didn't happen with human intervention. I think it's the conscious human intervention part that just botheres me. A bit. Ok, a lot.

(Btw I would buy a heated stone, just after I've worked though my list of 'more important' unheated stones).
 

chrono

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TheRedSpinel,
The earth cooks CS for us too. Sometimes it can be naturally irradiated, pressurized and heated to look wonderful when mined from the ground. It's all about how you look at it. :cheeky:
 

theredspinel

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That's exactly my point Chrono. As long as it's done without human intervention...that is what my love of gems is all about. The fact that nature can do all that....
 

PrecisionGem

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From Gem and Gemology publication:

"THERMAL ENHANCEMENT
For a wide variety of gem materials, heat treatment is still the most common enhancement. In some cases, heat treatment can still be identified by rou- tine methods. In others, conclusive identification is possible only with advanced instrumentation and techniques. In still other gems (e.g., aquamarine, cit- rine, amethyst, and tourmaline), heat treatment remains virtually unidentifiable by any currently known methods. For this last group of stones, which are heated to induce permanent changes to their color, this enhancement may be the rule rather than the exception. One should assume that most of those gem materials have been heated."
 

PrecisionGem

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Chrono|1452861698|3976289 said:
TheRedSpinel,
The earth cooks CS for us too. Sometimes it can be naturally irradiated, pressurized and heated to look wonderful when mined from the ground. It's all about how you look at it. :cheeky:
Exactly. And this is the case with Lake Baringo Rubies. The stones were heated by nature as they were spewed from a volcano and scattered about on the surface. THese stones if sent in to most labs will come back we a report indicating HEAT, but they were not heated by man.
 

theredspinel

Brilliant_Rock
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PrecisionGem|1452873998|3976365 said:
Chrono|1452861698|3976289 said:
TheRedSpinel,
The earth cooks CS for us too. Sometimes it can be naturally irradiated, pressurized and heated to look wonderful when mined from the ground. It's all about how you look at it. :cheeky:
Exactly. And this is the case with Lake Baringo Rubies. The stones were heated by nature as they were spewed from a volcano and scattered about on the surface. THese stones if sent in to most labs will come back we a report indicating HEAT, but they were not heated by man.
And that's the whole point, they were not heated by man. This is why consumers care about the origin and all other available info about gems, so in the above case you would know what heat means.

Re the aqua I really can't remember the links I read but after that nugget of info I'm just glad I didn't get it :D
 

minousbijoux

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PrecisionGem|1452873998|3976365 said:
Chrono|1452861698|3976289 said:
TheRedSpinel,
The earth cooks CS for us too. Sometimes it can be naturally irradiated, pressurized and heated to look wonderful when mined from the ground. It's all about how you look at it. :cheeky:
Exactly. And this is the case with Lake Baringo Rubies. The stones were heated by nature as they were spewed from a volcano and scattered about on the surface. THese stones if sent in to most labs will come back we a report indicating HEAT, but they were not heated by man.
I like this image and wish I were in the vicinity right after the volcano was finished with its spewing. :bigsmile:
 

PrecisionGem

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These Lake Baringo stones are often found by the Masai after a rain which washes them to the surface. The stones are really pretty, but for the most part small. I had a Masai show me a nice parcel he found, fantastic red color, but they were all 2 carat and smaller, many less than 1. These stones are often not good shapes for high yield, so they were just too small for me. I did buy I think 1 or 2 of the largest.
 

mouseclock

Rough_Rock
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Just wanted a update and help here, instead of opening another new topic.

I understand there are trade shows for gems. Can some of you please recommend me some good shows for gems business? Have plenty of like 2mm rounds, 6x4 kinds of items in precious stones.
 
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Even if some treatments are currently not identifiable they might become detectable in the future and then those gems that were treated will loose greatly against those that are 100% natural. The same happened with rubies and sapphires as I understand it. Some 50+ years ago, they all sold at the same price until new technology in the gem-labs or simple awareness made it possible to distinguish the natural from the treated. Or those beryllium sapphires that sold as natural padparadschas for full prices until the labs learned to identify the treatment and then they lost all their value. Every time a new treatment becomes detectable, the market splits into treated and untreated, right? Perhaps in 10 years low-heat will become easily detectable and then you would be happy to have bought untreated ones today. I'm rather biased after reading all of Ed''s articles, but it seems to me that buying only untreated stones is the safest bet for the future.
 

PrecisionGem

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The safest bet for the future is to NOT consider buying gemstones an investment. Since the election, the stock market has been a much better investment than buying gemstones. The average person if they decide to sell a stone will most likely end up selling well below wholesale, and most likely they bought above wholesale. Also, as the original poster here has found out, it's not that easy to sell off you stones, your stocks on the other hand can be unload with just a few clicks of the mouse.
 

mastercutgems

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Investments are always a risk; but I for one would rather have a diverse portfolio with many different types of investments as it is just more sound as we all know that had invested in the stock market many years ago and even recently they can turn south in the blink of an eye and many times all you have is paper... For starting a fire it is great but go to the local corner and see what it will get you??? On the other hand even at 1/2 the original value in hard times it could be the difference between starvation and a filled tummy, gallon of fuel, etc... stranger things have happened.

But I think when you buy a good solid item with value since time began is always a sound place to put excess funds or disposable income. some stock, some gold, some silver, some land, some gems, some art... It is all part of a well rounded financial portfolio..

IF a person chose to invest in a gem for anything other than personal love of the mineral; buy something that is tried and true for the most popular demand; good ruby, good blue sapphire, fine green emerald, fine white diamond... And a report from an accredited lab is always a good attachment to any gem that you invest more than a grand in... They all will have some intrinsic value to someone at any given time. As a ole country boy I was always taught " do not put all your eggs in one basket" and that holds true to this day..

But just one humble opinion.

Most Respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified
Supreme Master Gem Cutter
#96CGE42
 
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PrecisionGem|1489665800|4140824 said:
The safest bet for the future is to NOT consider buying gemstones an investment. Since the election, the stock market has been a much better investment than buying gemstones. The average person if they decide to sell a stone will most likely end up selling well below wholesale, and most likely they bought above wholesale. Also, as the original poster here has found out, it's not that easy to sell off you stones, your stocks on the other hand can be unload with just a few clicks of the mouse.
Surely, you are 100% correct. As a end-consumer buying retail you always loose short-term. Get a new a $100K mercedes and drive one week, and resell for $75k. Short-term gains are probably impossible.
However, I do believe in long-term value storage and increase with high-quality gems (as was my wine collection if I hadn't drunk it up). I'm thinking in terms of generations time-wise. It may take 50 years for inflation and increase in value to cover my retail-extra-cost but at some point in the future my heirs will have something of true value in hand; and beauty. Much better than the Merc. and they do cost nada in-between, need no maintenance, tax or storage space. Plus I have all the fun and my grandkids will enjoy them too.
 

PrecisionGem

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You are using the example of a $100,000 car. Very bad investment. Let's take the same example of Apple Stock. Had you 20 years ago invested just $10,000 in Apple stock, today you would over 2.3 million dollars. There is no way your stones would ever have such gains. For the most part you are buying at retail price, and will need to sell at wholesale. So you are already looking at a big loss that any increase in value must over come. The bottom line, these things are pretty to look at, useless for any practical thing, and a bad investment.
 

mastercutgems

Shiny_Rock
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Well aside from dollars and cents; They bring you JOY and that; is priceless ;-) LOL

I enjoy my gems but they have been a good investment; gems in rough or cut that I bought 25 years ago have been the catalyst for me to feed my family for 15 years; so it was not a bad investment. But like what has been alluded to you must buy as close to raw wholesale as possible. It takes years to learn the gems, a trade of cutting and marketing them; many thousands of dollars to get lab reports, etc. It is called smart investment when you research the item you wish to invest in before you invest...

BUT; they are not a bad investment IF you do your homework; just like stock; I can go out and buy bad stock that is getting ready to drop for some reason and you will lose your rear end... So is the same with gems, gold, silver, land, etc.; do not do your homework on any investment and you will more-than-likely lose your shirt...

So whatever you choose to invest in; whether it be of the heart or the pocketbook; do it wisely and a forum like this is for that reason; it is to educate the populous into making more sound investments in a colored gem; that hopefully will bring you joy everytime you wear it instead of depression from making a bad choice that came from not knowing any better.

So continue to help one another to make the best educated decision within their means for a particular gem. Enjoy it as that will be worth more than money any day as a smile is a priceless commodity in these days.



Most respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified
Supreme Master Gem Cutter
#96CGE42
 

PrecisionGem

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Dana, you are in the business, and adding value to your rough by cutting it. For you cut stones, you traveled overseas, bought below wholesale and can make a profit. But for the typical consumer, they are buying at retail. So if Normanintheskywithsapphires buys a $20,000 sapphire at retail, the wholesale price is most likely $10,000. Gemstones historically have followed the inflation rate, so assume 3% inflation, it would take 23 years for his stone to reach on the wholesale market what he paid for it, and then he would only break even. That is a horrid investment. He would have done much better buying bonds, or even just putting his money in a CD. At least he would have no problem getting his hands on the money if he wanted or needed it.

Selling a stone is not a given. I know people trying to sell stones that are taking a long time to sell, and are selling for less than they paid for them. Bad investment. Don't think of gemstones as an investment, think of them as a luxury item. Why are the pawn shops full of jewelry? What kind of return on their 'investment' did people get at the pawn shop? But gems because you want them, not because you think they are an investment.
 

mastercutgems

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But Gene you miss my point... Invest with education behind it... You can make bad choices even in stock, land, gold, etc... Yes there are many pawn shops filled with very poor quality gems... Is it the consumers fault they did not buy with an educated background in the said product before they committed to the sale or did they just go into any willy nilly retail jewelry store and buy it to satisfy a whim???

Well if they did they usually got less than if they had researched the market and what was a going price for said item; example with me; 35 years ago at the ripe ole age of 21 years old I went into a modern chain store and bought my Mom a pair of amethyst post ear rings for her birthday as it is her gem birthstone... I was clueless; I came out the door with a 2mm pair in 10K gold for 125.00 and at that time that was good money.. Did I get took; well on a monetary sense YES... did my Mom love them; YES so money was NOT wasted... But as for an investment in monetary means only YES it was BAD!!! But that was my fault not the chain store; they relied on me not doing my homework.. And I did not and I made a bad investment; my fault with the help of a not-so-caring salesperson ...

But as time went on I wanted to learn why things were so costly and I did my homework; bought lapidary journal and rock and gem magazine to start with and studied; found out I could buy a pair 10x that big in 14k gold for the same price... I then began to educate myself on the gems which led into cutting. But what I am trying to get across anyone can learn to buy wholesale or close.

You cannot tell me that the savy gem buyers on this forum do not try to get their high end gems at the best price they can??? They haggle as good if not better than we do. So I guess that is why so many( and the numbers are staggering) of the retail brick and mortar stores are dropping out of the marketplace like flies in the dead of winter. People are becoming more educated in gems, gold prices, etc. and there is less and less money or pieces of the gem pie to go around...

But the entire premise of my statements seemed to be overlooked; INVEST WISELY and with education like from this forum in your arsenal of acquiring colored gems...

I know people personally that have lost millions on gems, stock market, gold, silver, land, etc. and I also know people that have done very well in all listed above. One thing the winners all had in common; they researched the item they invested their monies in; the others were talked into things by slicks that had motives of their own; but at the end of the day; IF they had done their own research in their investment it would have turned out much better in the end... That is all I am saying.

Anything can be a GOOD or a BAD investment if done without knowledge..

Sorry for the long winded explanation of what I was trying to get across ;-) LOL

Nothing said or taken on my end offensively; All in fun and LOVE :love:

Most respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified
Supreme Master Gem Cutter
#96CGE42
 

PrecisionGem

Brilliant_Rock
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People on Pricescope are not buying investment grade stones, or even what I would consider high end gems. To me, high end gems are $25,000 and up. I have yet to see anything here that would be something that would be sold on auction at Christie's.

I stand by my statements that an investment should be something that can quickly be turned into cash. How many people have stones sitting on LoupeTroup for months trying to sell them, many prices less than they paid for them.

Individual stocks can be risky but a well planned out diverse portfolio of mutual funds will do much better than gemstones any day, and can quickly be turned into cash if needed.
 

skoons6694

Rough_Rock
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PrecisionGem|1489753455|4141165 said:
You are using the example of a $100,000 car. Very bad investment. Let's take the same example of Apple Stock. Had you 20 years ago invested just $10,000 in Apple stock, today you would over 2.3 million dollars. There is no way your stones would ever have such gains. For the most part you are buying at retail price, and will need to sell at wholesale. So you are already looking at a big loss that any increase in value must over come. The bottom line, these things are pretty to look at, useless for any practical thing, and a bad investment.


Buying and selling individual stocks is a rigged game and no novice should be doing it. By your example, yes, someone who purchased apple stock would be wealthy. In the same respect, if someone 20 years ago purchased all the paraiba tourmaline they could get their hands on, that person would be wealthy as well. Go back to that same 20 years and see how many of those tech companies like apple are no longer around and trust me when I say, there were many times when apple wasn't guaranteed to survive the downturn. Look up Exodus Communications which was one of the largest internet data storage companies. They went belly up during the tech downturn. Look up Infospace which was the leader in internet technology for cell phones 15 years ago ( a cutting edge idea back then which most people thought would never happen). I believe they went bankrupt as well or were bought out for pennies on the dollar. People lost their entire retirements in the stock market during the early 2000's.

I would never recommend anyone and I mean anyone purchase individual stocks unless they could afford to loose every cent they've invested. Mutual funds are a different story, but individual stocks are a huge no, no, especially tech stocks. Just my opinion, however, I've seen the goods times and bad.
 

PrecisionGem

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skoons6694|1489844822|4141520 said:
PrecisionGem|1489753455|4141165 said:
You are using the example of a $100,000 car. Very bad investment. Let's take the same example of Apple Stock. Had you 20 years ago invested just $10,000 in Apple stock, today you would over 2.3 million dollars. There is no way your stones would ever have such gains. For the most part you are buying at retail price, and will need to sell at wholesale. So you are already looking at a big loss that any increase in value must over come. The bottom line, these things are pretty to look at, useless for any practical thing, and a bad investment.


Buying and selling individual stocks is a rigged game and no novice should be doing it. By your example, yes, someone who purchased apple stock would be wealthy. In the same respect, if someone 20 years ago purchased all the paraiba tourmaline they could get their hands on, that person would be wealthy as well. Go back to that same 20 years and see how many of those tech companies like apple are no longer around and trust me when I say, there were many times when apple wasn't guaranteed to survive the downturn. Look up Exodus Communications which was one of the largest internet data storage companies. They went belly up during the tech downturn. Look up Infospace which was the leader in internet technology for cell phones 15 years ago ( a cutting edge idea back then which most people thought would never happen). I believe they went bankrupt as well or were bought out for pennies on the dollar. People lost their entire retirements in the stock market during the early 2000's.

I would never recommend anyone and I mean anyone purchase individual stocks unless they could afford to loose every cent they've invested. Mutual funds are a different story, but individual stocks are a huge no, no, especially tech stocks. Just my opinion, however, I've seen the goods times and bad.
I think you mean had the person purchased $10,000 or Paraiba tourmaline 20 years ago. Could they sell those stones today for $2.3 million? No.

But I do encourage everyone to buy as many gemstones, especially precision cut ones as they can possible afford! Dig into your retirement and 401 accounts buy buy buy!
 

smitcompton

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Hi All,

IMO, both Dana and Gene have points to consider. I agree more with Gene and hope others understand gems, at discussion on pricescope, are not investment grade stones. Therefore, you should not expect an increase in value for the majority of stones we buy on here. I have seen some on Loupe troupe ask only that they get back only what they paid for the gem. Some succeed, others do not. I look for a bargain. If I have to pay the cost, I'd rather go to the original vendor to buy a gem.

While I do not expect to even get my money back if I sell, I console myself with the thought that if I bought now, I would pay more. So retail gem prices do go up each year, but I have my collection from 10 yrs ago, so I'm happy. Prices do go up, up ,up.
So be prudent in what you buy and buy because you think its beautiful.

Annette
 
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