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Super Ideal Rounds

Yes, it’s cut well, but... what are your personal requirements for “eye clean”? See absolutely nothing from 12” face-up? 8”? 6”? You’ll definitely want to have this stone shipped out loose to ensure it meets your specifications, whatever they are.
 
yssie said:
Yes, it’s cut well, but... what are your personal requirements for “eye clean”? See absolutely nothing from 12” face-up? 8”? 6”? You’ll definitely want to have this stone shipped out loose to ensure it meets your specifications, whatever they are.
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Sorry for hijacking the thread :) @yssie , as far as I can see from you comments and threads , I saw that you had a pleanty of different clarity stones , SI-1-2 , and higher ones . Did your opinion change through the time ? Having big stones in “lower” clarity and higher ? Did you ever wish to exchange for better clarity (mind clean ) (I am taking about a 2 carat stone you have) thanks :))
 
That one would have way too many “ spots” that would drive me nuts. The inclusions are near the table and I doubt it would be eye clean.
 
Golden_bird said:
Sorry for hijacking the thread :) @yssie , as far as I can see from you comments and threads , I saw that you had a pleanty of different clarity stones , SI-1-2 , and higher ones . Did your opinion change through the time ? Having big stones in “lower” clarity and higher ? Did you ever wish to exchange for better clarity (mind clean ) (I am taking about a 2 carat stone you have) thanks :))
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I do! My >1ct stones range from SI2 to VVS2.

I was happy with a 2.7ct SI2 in a ring for many years. It actually isn’t an eyeclean stone from 8” face-up but the primary inclusion is prongable... prongable, with a specific orientation of prongs that hugely complicated my setting style preferences.

I decided that the next *ring* stone I bought would be at minimum VS2 to avoid the setting headaches. The stone that spoke to me happened to be a VS1. Now... I’ll happily wear SIs in earrings - anyone that close to my ears had better not be inspecting my earrings :mrgreen2: but for a ring, anything below a VS1 feels like a downgrade - the mental standard has been set, much to my purse’s dismay!

The VVS is a 2.1ct G OMB whose faceting I fell in love with. It’s much higher colour than I personally prefer, and since it won’t be going into a ring I’d really rather not have paid extra for unappreciably high clarity! But its patterning is just darling ::)
 
Thank you for the input everyone, much appreciated, I'll continue searching.

Other than Brian Gavin and Whiteflash, do others offer the Super Ideal Cut stones or comparable levels of cut quality?
 
yssie said:
I do! My >1ct stones range from SI2 to VVS2.

I was happy with a 2.7ct SI2 in a ring for many years. It actually isn’t an eyeclean stone from 8” face-up but the primary inclusion is prongable... prongable, with a specific orientation of prongs that hugely complicated my setting style preferences.

I decided that the next *ring* stone I bought would be at minimum VS2 to avoid the setting headaches. The stone that spoke to me happened to be a VS1. Now... I’ll happily wear SIs in earrings - anyone that close to my ears had better not be inspecting my earrings :mrgreen2: but for a ring, anything below a VS1 feels like a downgrade - the mental standard has been set, much to my purse’s dismay!

The VVS is a 2.1ct G OMB whose faceting I fell in love with. It’s much higher colour than I personally prefer, and since it won’t be going into a ring I’d really rather not have paid extra for unappreciably high clarity! But its patterning is just darling ::)
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Thank you @yssie ! I see what you mean ! Pricescope is dangerous place :mrgreen2: once you have something , in some time you need already the upgrade in size color clarity (no visible color,no visible inclusions from any distance )and if you don’t stop yourself at the right time ,your bank account can get a hit :roll I guess I need some treatment for “mind clean “ issues :lol-2:
 
Do check out CBI stones - I bought one for the good lady and it never fails to perform amazingly well!
 
What do you guys think of these? Only website I've come across with Super Ideals in my price range was Whiteflash.

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3969523.htm

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3947719.htm

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3408406.htm

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3227672.htm

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3947718.htm


Also, would you suggest using the website you purchase the diamond from for the setting, or going to a local store for that?

I'm not really crazy about the Whiteflash bands/settings.
 
I like the 1.803 I/VS2 that you posted. Has a decent cut and is the only one that looks completely "eye-clean" from the video. Is there are reason you're sticking with WF? Do they have a setting you like, or are you interested in upgrading in the future? If you are interested in upgrading, then I would definitely recommend sticking with WF, as they have the best upgrade program in the business. But if this will be a forever stone, and if you're open to looking at equally well-cut non-branded stones, then I would take a look at this one.

https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/1.81-ct-H-VVS2-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond/D42216673?

VVS2 is a bit overkill for the clarity, but it is really well priced and has a great cut. Adiamor will provide IdealScope and ASET images for stones if you ask them, so it may be worth looking into this diamond if you'd like to save a bit of money.
 
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Here are two others that might be promising if you're OK with I color. Both hit the 2 carat mark.

https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/2.01-ct-I-VS1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond/D42161705?
https://www.fourmine.com/shop/diamond/182701703

The 2.01 has a knot, but this should be OK in a VS1 diamond, especially since it's not the grade-setting inclusion. I guess it depends on your color sensitivity though. Do you know if the intended recipient is OK with an I color? Have you looked at diamonds in person to get an idea of what your preferred color range is?
 
TreeScientist said:
I like the 1.803 I/VS2 that you posted. Has a decent cut and is the only one that looks completely "eye-clean" from the video. Is there are reason you're sticking with WF? Do they have a setting you like, or are you interested in upgrading in the future? If you are interested in upgrading, then I would definitely recommend sticking with WF, as they have the best upgrade program in the business. But if this will be a forever stone, and if you're open to looking at equally well-cut non-branded stones, then I would take a look at this one.

https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/1.81-ct-H-VVS2-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond/D42216673?

VVS2 is a bit overkill for the clarity, but it is really well priced and has a great cut. Adiamor will provide IdealScope and ASET images for stones if you ask them, so it may be worth looking into this diamond if you'd like to save a bit of money.
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All of my links are WF because that was simply the only ones I could find around my price range among the sponsored vendors that I was led to that had the "super ideal" cuts.

The lifetime trade up is a great benefit, but it isn't the #1 selling point for me.

TreeScientist said:
Here are two others that might be promising if you're OK with I color. Both hit the 2 carat mark.

https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/2.01-ct-I-VS1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond/D42161705?
https://www.fourmine.com/shop/diamond/182701703

The 2.01 has a knot, but this should be OK in a VS1 diamond, especially since it's not the grade-setting inclusion. I guess it depends on your color sensitivity though. Do you know if the intended recipient is OK with an I color? Have you looked at diamonds in person to get an idea of what your preferred color range is?
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She wants a Rose Gold Pave setting/band, so I think I color (from the ones I've seen in store) would be okay color wise with the pinkness of the rose gold.


With your recommendations above, none of them have ASET/IdealScope imaging available. Were the recommendations under the assumption that I should get those images before purchasing, or with Rounds, can you estimate rather clearly on light performance by it's cut specifications?
 
Vincent Renaut said:
or with Rounds, can you estimate rather clearly on light performance by it's cut specifications?
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No, you cannot, especially with the rounding on GIA reports. Even with AGS, it is always best to see the images.

Wink
 
So I've been using the following specs that I've found online to narrow down my searches for the best cuts, would you say these are accurate, inaccurate, or a bit too stringent?

Depth% - 61-62.5
Table% - 56-58
Crown Angle - 33.9-34.8
Pavilion Depth - 40.5-41
Girdle - Thin-slightly thick
Culet - None

Clarity has been SI1 and above with I color (since I'll be using rose gold)
 
As a tradesman it is improper for me to tell you my choice of numbers. I will say the ones you list are not the ones I would use, and even if you were using the numbers that I like best, I would never advise you to buy a diamond without looking at it, and also at the reflector images that so few people will provide.

Numbers, like the HCA can help you dismiss the dogs from your search, but they are not the answer to knowing how good the diamonds might look if they have the correctly balanced numbers. It is how precisely those numbers were applied, and with what degree of precision and perfect balance to create the largest possible virtual facets and thus the largest flashes of both white and colored light that will determine how the diamond looks to YOUR eyes.

When you have seen the reflector images and the diamonds that go with them enough times, you will begin to know pretty much what the diamond will look like.

Conversely, when you show me a report, I know which ones are probably dogs in little more than an instant, but once I have seen reports that have promise, then I need to see the reflector images to know if the diamond was put together well.

This is why many of the retailers highly recommended here are some of the few that provide those images with every diamond.

Wink
 
Vincent Renaut said:
All of my links are WF because that was simply the only ones I could find around my price range among the sponsored vendors that I was led to that had the "super ideal" cuts.

The lifetime trade up is a great benefit, but it isn't the #1 selling point for me.



She wants a Rose Gold Pave setting/band, so I think I color (from the ones I've seen in store) would be okay color wise with the pinkness of the rose gold.


With your recommendations above, none of them have ASET/IdealScope imaging available. Were the recommendations under the assumption that I should get those images before purchasing, or with Rounds, can you estimate rather clearly on light performance by it's cut specifications?
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Ah yes, with Rose Gold, and I should be fine.

With round diamonds, you can get a fairly good idea (a "ballpark") of the light return from the geometry of the diamond as well as looking at pictures and videos. But there are certain aspects of you performance that you cannot determine from pictures/videos alone. So yes, you should ask the vendors to provide you with IdealScope images. Most vendors can provide them for you. :)
 
Wink said:
As a tradesman it is improper for me to tell you my choice of numbers. I will say the ones you list are not the ones I would use, and even if you were using the numbers that I like best, I would never advise you to buy a diamond without looking at it, and also at the reflector images that so few people will provide.

Numbers, like the HCA can help you dismiss the dogs from your search, but they are not the answer to knowing how good the diamonds might look if they have the correctly balanced numbers. It is how precisely those numbers were applied, and with what degree of precision and perfect balance to create the largest possible virtual facets and thus the largest flashes of both white and colored light that will determine how the diamond looks to YOUR eyes.

When you have seen the reflector images and the diamonds that go with them enough times, you will begin to know pretty much what the diamond will look like.

Conversely, when you show me a report, I know which ones are probably dogs in little more than an instant, but once I have seen reports that have promise, then I need to see the reflector images to know if the diamond was put together well.

This is why many of the retailers highly recommended here are some of the few that provide those images with every diamond.

Wink
Click to expand...

Thank you for the breakdown.

I honestly found those numbers from a few searches online. I don't plan on the numbers alone being a deciding factor for final purchase, but as you said, just a way to get the initial dogs out of the bunch so that I may be able to spend time digging further into the stones that meet the basic criteria.

Several posters have pointed me towards Brian Gavin Signature, IDP, and WF ACA for rounds super ideal cuts.

The current selections for those specific categories aren't really that plentiful, so I was trying to see if there were some other options out there whose brilliance and light performance falls under those same characteristics as the Super Ideals above, they just didn't have the specific brand name attached to them.

Could you give me your opinion and/or point me in the right direction as to what you would recommend for guidelines on simply "getting rid of the dogs"?

Thank you again for the input!
 
Vincent Renaut said:
Thank you for the breakdown.

I honestly found those numbers from a few searches online. I don't plan on the numbers alone being a deciding factor for final purchase, but as you said, just a way to get the initial dogs out of the bunch so that I may be able to spend time digging further into the stones that meet the basic criteria.

Several posters have pointed me towards Brian Gavin Signature, IDP, and WF ACA for rounds super ideal cuts.

The current selections for those specific categories aren't really that plentiful, so I was trying to see if there were some other options out there whose brilliance and light performance falls under those same characteristics as the Super Ideals above, they just didn't have the specific brand name attached to them.

Could you give me your opinion and/or point me in the right direction as to what you would recommend for guidelines on simply "getting rid of the dogs"?

Thank you again for the input!
Click to expand...

Recommended numbers will vary from person to person. But in general, when considering GIA rounding, you should stick to these numbers:

Depth: 60.5-62.3% Many (like myself) like to stick with depth under or at 62%. As long as the rest of the angles are complementary though, it's OK if the depth is a bit above 62%. It usually means a bit of weight is hid in a thicker girdle.
Table: 54-57%
Crown Angle (CA): 34.0-35.0 Sometimes 35.5 CA can be OK if paired with a 40.6 PA and if performance is verified with IS/ASET images.
Pavilion Angle (PA): 40.6-41.0 40.6 PA usually works best with 34.5-35.0 CA. 41.0 PA usually works best with 34.0-34.5 CA. 40.8 PA can work with any CA between 34.0-35.0.

I think the point that @Wink was trying to make though is that these guidelines are just a starting point. A diamond's geometry can fall within these guidelines and score well on the HCA but still have pretty bad light performance. That's because there's a lot more to diamond cut than just averaged crown and pavilion dimensions. A LOT more.

So you should use these dimensions as a guideline to weed through diamonds on the open market, but ultimately you should rely on the reflector images (IdealScope, ASET, and/or H&A scope) to make an informed decision on your final choice, and you will also need to look at it in person to decide if it suits you. Even among well cut diamonds, there are different "flavors" to performance. And just like ice cream, different people will prefer different flavors of diamonds. Some like crown heights on the higher side, while some like them on the lower side. Some like smaller tables while some like larger. The differences in performance between well cut diamonds with different geometries may be subtle, but they are definitely there. So even when it comes to SuperIdeals, you may prefer one particular diamond to another. That's why you should always buy a diamond from a company with a good return program just in case you don't like it. Luckily, pretty much all of the online vendors now offer 30 day return policies, so you don't have any risk involved when ordering to see how you like the IRL performance. :)
 
TreeScientist said:
Recommended numbers will vary from person to person. But in general, when considering GIA rounding, you should stick to these numbers:

Depth: 60.5-62.3% Many (like myself) like to stick with depth under or at 62%. As long as the rest of the angles are complementary though, it's OK if the depth is a bit above 62%. It usually means a bit of weight is hid in a thicker girdle.
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Interestingly, if the girdle is normal, a higher depth from a small table (higher CH) or higher pavilion can have better spread than a lower depth larger table.

I agree with everyone else the numbers you posted aren't helpful, the guide from @TreeScientist is much better.
 
yssie said:
Yes, it’s cut well, but... what are your personal requirements for “eye clean”? See absolutely nothing from 12” face-up? 8”? 6”? You’ll definitely want to have this stone shipped out loose to ensure it meets your specifications, whatever they are.
Click to expand...

Completely agree with this... if she’s got hawk eyes... you must do this.

My future fiancé was checking out diamonds in showrooms and would jam that diamond ring right up to her face. She has near-perfect vision without corrective lenses or LASIK.

The sales person and I would say “hey you’re not supposed to do that... maybe a foot away is normal” but she’d just look super closely anyway since she was going to wear this every day..

I also ended up with a shitshow thread here where I was puzzled how so many people said VS was eye clean, but my fiancé kept seeing issues with the VS stones shown to her.

Two Morals for me ...

1. let her see the diamond you’re buying in person or just go with VVS+.

2. don’t ask Price Scope for input on diamond clarities.
 
holeydonut said:
Completely agree with this... if she’s got hawk eyes... you must do this.

My future fiancé was checking out diamonds in showrooms and would jam that diamond ring right up to her face. She has near-perfect vision without corrective lenses or LASIK.

The sales person and I would say “hey you’re not supposed to do that... maybe a foot away is normal” but she’d just look super closely anyway since she was going to wear this every day..

I also ended up with a shitshow thread here where I was puzzled how so many people said VS was eye clean, but my fiancé kept seeing issues with the VS stones shown to her.

Two Morals for me ...

1. let her see the diamond you’re buying in person or just go with VVS+.

2. don’t ask Price Scope for input on diamond clarities.
Click to expand...
.

Rarely are VS diamonds not eye clean, especially VS1. If the stones were GIA/AGS graded, well cleaned. Could she still notice the imperfections consistently on a blind test in similar diamonds?
 
gm89uk said:
.

Rarely are VS diamonds not eye clean, especially VS1. If the stones were GIA/AGS graded, well cleaned. Could she still notice the imperfections consistently on a blind test in similar diamonds?
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I agree with this, and I don't think @holeydonut ever really clarified in that thread whether or not his GF could differentiate VS1 from VVS diamonds in a blind test. I think the VVS was in many ways a "mind-clean" issue there.

I do think that some caution must be taken when recommending SI clarities, especially in this size range, as "eye-clean" can vary depending on the individual's eyesight and their definition of eye-clean. I would venture to guess that at 2 carats, most people with good eyesight would be able to pick out inclusions in just about every SI diamond if they really scrutinized and held the stone right up to their face. But in "good" SI diamonds that have been vetted by SuperIdeal vendors, I don't think you would ever notice the inclusions in everyday viewing situations.

However, I seriously doubt that most people could pick out inclusions in a properly-graded* VS1 round brilliant no matter how close to their eyes they held the diamond. The human eye has a limited focal distance, and thus resolution, that would make it just about impossible to identify small imperfections on the micrometer scale (which is the scale of VS1 inclusions).

TLDR to the OP: Don't worry about eye-cleanliness at the VS1 clarity grade. Most normal humans (aka those without superhuman, microscopic vision) will never be able to identify a VS1 inclusion with the naked eye.

*Sure, there may be that one in a thousand example that slips through the cracks, and has a visible inclusion despite receiving a VS1 grade. But this is definitely the exception, not the rule.
 
TreeScientist said:
I agree with this, and I don't think @holeydonut ever really clarified in that thread whether or not his GF could differentiate VS1 from VVS diamonds in a blind test. I think the VVS was in many ways a "mind-clean" issue there.

I do think that some caution must be taken when recommending SI clarities, especially in this size range, as "eye-clean" can vary depending on the individual's eyesight and their definition of eye-clean. I would venture to guess that at 2 carats, most people with good eyesight would be able to pick out inclusions in just about every SI diamond if they really scrutinized and held the stone right up to their face. But in "good" SI diamonds that have been vetted by SuperIdeal vendors, I don't think you would ever notice the inclusions in everyday viewing situations.

However, I seriously doubt that most people could pick out inclusions in a properly-graded* VS1 round brilliant no matter how close to their eyes they held the diamond. The human eye has a limited focal distance, and thus resolution, that would make it just about impossible to identify small imperfections on the micrometer scale (which is the scale of VS1 inclusions).

TLDR to the OP: Don't worry about eye-cleanliness at the VS1 clarity grade. Most normal humans (aka those without superhuman, microscopic vision) will never be able to identify a VS1 inclusion with the naked eye.

*Sure, there may be that one in a thousand example that slips through the cracks, and has a visible inclusion despite receiving a VS1 grade. But this is definitely the exception, not the rule.
Click to expand...



Completely agree about the science and pragmatism of what someone should expect with VS1. But I also believe that dirty diamonds cause the mind to play tricks.

The easiest way for the man to be "mind clean" is to read Price Scope.

The easiest way for her to be "mind clean" is to let her see the diamond herself as shipped from the super-ideal vendor.
 
gm89uk said:
.

Rarely are VS diamonds not eye clean, especially VS1. If the stones were GIA/AGS graded, well cleaned. Could she still notice the imperfections consistently on a blind test in similar diamonds?
Click to expand...


Completely agree with ya. But I made the dumbest decision ever to prove VS1 was clear by having her see GIA rated diamonds in showrooms. Backfired very badly since the diamonds were kind of dusty/dirty. Maybe some jewelry stores put dirty VS1s in their gallery to force people to upgrade to VVS... who knows.

Anyway, I think having a loose stone shipped from a super-ideal vendor would have saved me a ton of headache, and helped get a slightly larger stone since VVS is a bit overkill.
 
holeydonut said:
Completely agree with ya. But I made the dumbest decision ever to prove VS1 was clear by having her see GIA rated diamonds in showrooms. Backfired very badly since the diamonds were kind of dusty/dirty. Maybe some jewelry stores put dirty VS1s in their gallery to force people to upgrade to VVS... who knows.

Anyway, I think having a loose stone shipped from a super-ideal vendor would have saved me a ton of headache, and helped get a slightly larger stone since VVS is a bit overkill.
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Some people are very near sighted. I am not sure that this necessarily means they are not far sighted too. But if you can focus much closer than about 10 inches (the 'least distance of distinct vision' according to the field of optometry), then you are on the nearsighted part of the spectrum. We sometimes have customers that can focus at 4" ! Such people can see inclusions with their naked eye that the vast majority of us cannot.
 
Texas Leaguer said:
Some people are very near sighted. I am not sure that this necessarily means they are not far sighted too. But if you can focus much closer than about 10 inches (the 'least distance of distinct vision' according to the field of optometry), then you are on the nearsighted part of the spectrum. We sometimes have customers that can focus at 4" ! Such people can see inclusions with their naked eye that the vast majority of us cannot.
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Unfortunately I am one of those ppl who can focus at 4 inches , I don’t know if that a blessing or a curse . I see too much of everything in diamond and real life too .:cry2:
 
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