Sullivan makes good points about how gay community is blowing it

[sonnyjane]

IMHO the simple truth is many Americans fear equality. (And a small number of Aussies too).

Do you think they fear it? I’m not sure what about it they would fear. I honestly think it’s because many do not believe that all “men” are created equal, whether because of religion or upbringing.

 

[Maria D]

This isn't just about what people believe -- it's how they act. There are people in this world whose beliefs are counter to mine and I would not refuse them service because underneath all our differences we are human beings. That is what i've been trying to articulate all day -- we are the same underneath all the accoutrements of our native societies and cultures. And that should be the tie that binds us. Instead we adhere to beliefs that divide us.

The question becomes, were they refused service? From what I've read, the baker offered them a pre-made cake. He just would not make one they were trying to commission.

 

[Matata]

Do you children go to private schools?

I don't have children. You'll get no argument from me about the sad state of political leadership here. As far as tolerance, acceptance and respect go, there are groups here that say tolerance isn't enough and only acceptance will do. I don't agree. I'm not asking for a perfect world; I'm continuing to hope that our species will at least practice tolerance. Not even asking for respect. I don't respect religious dogma and will never accept it. At this point, it's difficult for me to tolerate its existence as well as those who believe but I have no choice so I persist in practicing tolerance even though I get angry and frustrated at times. My neighbor has a huge sign over his front porch that says "Jesus is the reason for the season" and I tolerate it although I want to tear it down, rip it to shreds, and stuff it up his arse. Maybe I'd be more tolerant of that sign if he didn't also have a half dozen Trump/Pence signs stuck in his front lawn last year

 

[Matata]

The question becomes, were they refused service? From what I've read, the baker offered them a pre-made cake. He just would not make one they were trying to commission.

I missed that when I read the article. It's splitting hairs. Was the pre-made cake made in his establishment? Was it made by him? What's the difference between the two cakes? One violates his belief and the other doesn't even though he knows the pre-made would be used in a wedding that is against his religion? It's spelled h - y - p - o - c - r - i - s - y.

 

[rainwood]

It's simple. You either believe it's wrong to discriminate against people because of their sexual orientation, or you believe it's okay. I believe it's wrong, and the laws in my state agree. We had a similar case, and the baker lost as she should have.

 

[arkieb1]

Do you think they fear it? I’m not sure what about it they would fear. I honestly think it’s because many do not believe that all “men” are created equal, whether because of religion or upbringing.

Yes, to be blunt there is some type of fear going on the threads we had about black lives matter T-shirts we actually had a small number of members stating that they are sick of the world that discriminates against white people, some BS arguments about reverse discrimination - that was their take on black lives matter. And when Trump was running I saw similar sentiments, that somehow political correctness has gone too far that's why they voted for Trump. So yes I think when there is some imagined threat to their way of life there is fear of the unknown, fear of change, fear of a whole host of things.

 

[arkieb1]

I don't have children. You'll get no argument from me about the sad state of political leadership here. As far as tolerance, acceptance and respect go, there are groups here that say tolerance isn't enough and only acceptance will do. I don't agree. I'm not asking for a perfect world; I'm continuing to hope that our species will at least practice tolerance. Not even asking for respect. I don't respect religious dogma and will never accept it. At this point, it's difficult for me to tolerate its existence as well as those who believe but I have no choice so I persist in practicing tolerance even though I get angry and frustrated at times. My neighbor has a huge sign over his front porch that says "Jesus is the reason for the season" and I tolerate it although I want to tear it down, rip it to shreds, and stuff it up his arse. Maybe I'd be more tolerant of that sign if he didn't also have a half dozen Trump/Pence signs stuck in his front lawn last year

I probably would have drawn vampire faces over their Trump/Pence signs late at night, after a few wines just for fun but that is my wicked obviously non tolerate personality at work

 

[monarch64]

Yes, to be blunt there is some type of fear going on the threads we had about black lives matter T-shirts we actually had a small number of members stating that they are sick of the world that discriminates against white people, some BS arguments about reverse discrimination - that was their take on black lives matter. And when Trump was running I saw similar sentiments, that somehow political correctness has gone too far that's why they voted for Trump. So yes I think when there is some imagined threat to their way of life there is fear of the unknown, fear of change, fear of a whole host of things.

People on the whole fear lots of things, most of all CHANGE. It's how politicians get elected. It's how religious leaders remain in power. It's how dictators control the masses. Fear tactics.

It's very easy to appeal to human fear and make promises that assuage that fear for a limited time. Anyone can be manipulated. And it's far easier when you have mass numbers of people thinking alike.

SALES 101.

 

[kenny]

...I don't appreciate your bigotry ...

Calling out intolerance and bigotry is not intolerance and bigotry.

 

[GliderPoss]

This is an interesting lively debate and the article does make some key points such as "Live and let live"....

I think "freedom of speech/belief" must be considered on BOTH sides of the argument. Ie. Christians/Muslims/LGBT must find a balance of being faithful to their personal preferences/beliefs as well just being a good decent human being. It is equally important everyone to be considerate & understanding to those who do not share your views. It is entirely possible to agree to disagree, not everyone must be converted to your particular way of thinking!

The cake matter seems rather ridiculous to me and whilst I understand the principle of the matter - IMO it's a complete waste of court time/tax payers money...

 

[missy]

Who is this baker hurting by refusing to make same-sex wedding cakes? Or halloween cakes for that matter. I don't go to a kosher deli for a ham sandwich and do not feel affronted by the fact that I have to go elsewhere for one.

You are going way past the argument of this particular case if you think this baker is trying to take away the right of his customers to be gay. You are writing as if he is refusing to sell his offerings to people that are gay when that isn't the case. His argument is that he can't sell them a wedding cake because he can't make same-sex wedding cakes for religious reasons.

I think we may all be in for a surprise when even the more liberal SCJ's rule in favor of the baker.

It's not (just) about the cake. This is a big deal. It's about the cake and much much more.

Refusing your services to someone because they don't live and love according to the way you believe they ought to. Who are you to make you ruler of all that live and breathe? It is their RIGHT to marry and it is their right to pursue life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. At the very least no matter where you live in the USA it is your right to live with and love someone who is the same gender as you as long as they are of legal consenting age.

And they are doing it without causing you or anyone any ill harm. Yet you think it is OK for the baker to say hey I am discriminating against you based on this fact that has nothing to do with that baker in any way. That it is OK for this baker to act on his intolerant bigoted beliefs. Beliefs are one thing and they are yours. Actions affecting others are no longer within your private domain. You affect others in a negative way and there are (and should be) legal consequences.

And about harming others I was commenting on the analogy a poster drew about being a Nazi member or being in the KKK and being gay. Choosing to be a member of the KKK or the Nazi party is a hateful action based on bigotry and evil and violence. Being gay is none of those things. That was the point I was illustrating here. Though I could argue the action of the baker is one based on hate and hate based on for example who one loves is an action that hurts many. Hateful actions hurt more than just the person/people it is directed towards.

Yes people will always act based on fear but IMO people also act based on the false thought that they are superior and better than others. You are right arkieb1 they don't want equality and one of the reasons is because then they feel they are less so somehow. Lots of self righteous behavior from people who think they get to decide how others should live and it makes me ill.

Yes indeed to "Live and Let Live" when it isn't hurting anyone. Being a "good decent human being" (thanks HotPozzum) has nothing to do with one's sexual orientation. Being a good human being has nothing to do with if someone attends religious services on a regular basis or never attends any religious services. Being a good decent human being is helping others in need, in doing good in the world and in leaving the world if not a better place than certainly not a worse place. Though I would argue if you do nothing when you see injustices happening all over then you are not behaving the way a good decent human being should. Being a good decent human being doesn't mean others have to behave exactly the way you behave or have your belief system. Not at all. Being a good human being isn't that complex yet somehow it seems elusive to many of those in politics. At least from this human being's perspective.

we are the same underneath all the accoutrements of our native societies and cultures. And that should be the tie that binds us. Instead we adhere to beliefs that divide us.

Yes to this. Yes yes yes.

 

[ksinger]

I'm in a hurry today, so my own thoughts: this country was not founded for the purpose of being some beacon of tolerance or social mobility, not even in its most idealistic moments. Religion, of course, factors heavily into that. But that is side topic. In the category of not my own thoughts, this passage keeps coming to mind with all the talk in here of most people having a seemingly ineradicable need to have someone to feel superior to.

"Franklin understood that maintaining class differences had its own appeal. In the Pennsylvania Gazette, the newspaper he edited, an article was published in 1741 that exposed why people preferred having a class hierarchy to having none. Hierarchy was easily maintained when the majority felt there was someone below them. "How many," the author asked, "even of the better sort," would choose to be "Slaves to those above them, provided they might exercise an arbitrary and Tyrannical Rule over all below them?"
(italics by the author)

White Trash. The 400-Year Untold History of Class in America. by Nancy Isenberg
p 76-77

 

[Maria D]

It's not (just) about the cake. This is a big deal. It's about the cake and much much more.

Refusing your services to someone because they don't live and love according to the way you believe they ought to. Who are you to make you ruler of all that live and breathe? It is their RIGHT to marry and it is their right to pursue life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. At the very least no matter where you live in the USA it is your right to live with and love someone who is the same gender as you as long as they are of legal consenting age.

And they are doing it without causing you or anyone any ill harm. Yet you think it is OK for the baker to say hey I am discriminating against you based on this fact that has nothing to do with that baker in any way. That it is OK for this baker to act on his intolerant bigoted beliefs. Beliefs are one thing and they are yours. Actions affecting others are no longer within your private domain. You affect others in a negative way and there are (and should be) legal consequences.

And about harming others I was commenting on the analogy a poster drew about being a Nazi member or being in the KKK and being gay. Choosing to be a member of the KKK or the Nazi party is a hateful action based on bigotry and evil and violence. Being gay is none of those things. That was the point I was illustrating here. Though I could argue the action of the baker is one based on hate and hate based on for example who one loves is an action that hurts many. Hateful actions hurt more than just the person/people it is directed towards.

Yes people will always act based on fear but IMO people also act based on the false thought that they are superior and better than others. You are right arkieb1 they don't want equality and one of the reasons is because then they feel they are less so somehow. Lots of self righteous behavior from people who think they get to decide how others should live and it makes me ill.

Yes indeed to "Live and Let Live" when it isn't hurting anyone. Being a "good decent human being" (thanks HotPozzum) has nothing to do with one's sexual orientation. Being a good human being has nothing to do with if someone attends religious services on a regular basis or never attends any religious services. Being a good decent human being is helping others in need, in doing good in the world and in leaving the world if not a better place than certainly not a worse place. Though I would argue if you do nothing when you see injustices happening all over then you are not behaving the way a good decent human being should. Being a good decent human being doesn't mean others have to behave exactly the way you behave or have your belief system. Not at all. Being a good human being isn't that complex yet somehow it seems elusive to many of those in politics. At least from this human being's perspective.




Yes to this. Yes yes yes.

I didn't get past the bolded. This baker does not feel he refused his services because he provides baked goods and he offered them baked goods.

 

[missy]

Maria D I am on the go on the subway with spotty reception but will answer your question if I remain connected...the baker didn't offer all the services he provides to heterosexuals but services on his terms. So he is discriminating pure and simple and last time I looked that is not legal and more importantly IMO not ethical. IMO.

 

[AGBF]

I thought the article was very thoughtful, but it ignored a basic tenet of the legal argument. It was predicated on the premise that the baker was an artist. One aspect of the case was that the baker should not be forced to "speak" what he did not believe. Baking a cake is not speech. The person dictating the writing is the speaker. We would not allow the operator of a printing press to determine what was in a book. Therefore, the baker should not determine what is written on a cake. If I were on The Supreme Court, I would rule based on that.

Having said that, I have great respect for Mr. Sullivan's viewpoint and do not know that anyone should have pushed this one, poor, Christian baker into a corner by bringing the case. Sometimes we do have to let our neighbors have quirks as long as they are not trying to hurt us. And he was not trying to keep same sex people from exercising their legal rights to marry, nor was he bullying them or ridiculing them or writing graffiti on their buildings. He was not calling for anyone else to boycott their business. I do not believe he intended them harm. But that is just my opinion. Obviously.

AGBF

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Calling out intolerance and bigotry is not intolerance and bigotry.

Kenny, it's taken me a couple of days to come back to this thread. I have given it a lot of thought over the last couple of days. Your sweeping comments to condemn those with Christian or religious beliefs made me feel how you probably have felt when people say things against gays. One comment was directed towards Christians which has since been moderated and the other referred to the brainwashed religious people. That's pretty much the definition of bigotry, Kenny. From dictionary.com:

Bigotry: "stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own."

But what I want to remind you is, religious people are not all the same! Many Christians would have made the cake! But I do feel there would be cakes I would have to refuse, like the one Maria posted above, as a great example. I'd hate to have to lose my business due to that refusal, but I wouldn't make that cake, and there would be others, too. I am just glad I am not a baker. I imagine the SC will rule against the baker, but we ALL will lose some freedom if they do.

I care about you, Kenny. I just want you to realize maybe we all have some areas of prejudice.

 

[kenny]

Discriminating against people for how they were born is wrong.
A religion teaching it doesn't make it any less wrong.

I'm sick and tired of religions getting a pass to harm people, especially when it's twisted into being 'moral'.
Religions shouldn't be allowed to teach things that end up harming groups of people.

IMO if they don't stop violating tax payers' civil rights they must lose their tax exempt status.

I will not stop pointing out wrong doing just because religions instruct it.
Pointing out bigotry does not make one a bigot.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

Kenny you are blaming religions as a whole but even religious believers have a mind if they choose to use it and think outside of what is taught to them. So really it's the individuals who are to blame, for example I am a believer but I don't subscribe to all the beliefs of my religion.

It is up to the individual what they take away from any religion and how they choose to apply that to their daily life. Not everyone that is a believer is a sheep, some of us can actually think for ourselves.

 

[telephone89]

It's always interesting to me to see how christianity gets a (almost) free pass in the US. If a muslim or jewish baker refused this cake, or something related to their religion, they'd probably wake up with spray paint all over the exterior. But because you're of this one special religion? Oh, youre protecting your free speech
No one is saying that ALL religious people are bad or intolerant, but when you USE THE ACTUAL RELIGION to spread this hatred, then yes, I think its justified.

I agree with you @kenny - religion in general gets a pass, but certainly some religions are held to a stricter standard (lets not get into which one is praising a child molester )

Anyways, to the article, I'm glad it's going to supreme court. One thing I think people might be missing as well is that the gay couple filed a complaint, and then the baker is the one who is appealing and taking it through all levels of the court. It is not the gay couple trying to shut down this guys bakery (as some pps have alluded to).

Kenny, I imagine the SC will rule against the baker, but we ALL will lose some freedom if they do.

I completely disagree. I think if they rule for the baker, that will embolden people of all faiths to discriminate further. A big portion of this case is - where is the line? What about other wedding vendors, are they free to discriminate as well? Florists, make up artists? What about venues? Caterers? How far will this spread? This needs to be shut down immediately.

 

[kenny]

Each city needs several bakeries.
Each should be run by one group and serve only that group.
Better yet, walls around exclusive communities would prevent members from having to even see the heathens.

Such is intolerance and bigotry.
Religions should get to teach whatever they want.
Right?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

It's always interesting to me to see how christianity gets a (almost) free pass in the US. If a muslim or jewish baker refused this cake, or something related to their religion, they'd probably wake up with spray paint all over the exterior. But because you're of this one special religion? Oh, youre protecting your free speech
No one is saying that ALL religious people are bad or intolerant, but when you USE THE ACTUAL RELIGION to spread this hatred, then yes, I think its justified.

I agree with you @kenny - religion in general gets a pass, but certainly some religions are held to a stricter standard (lets not get into which one is praising a child molester )

Anyways, to the article, I'm glad it's going to supreme court. One thing I think people might be missing as well is that the gay couple filed a complaint, and then the baker is the one who is appealing and taking it through all levels of the court. It is not the gay couple trying to shut down this guys bakery (as some pps have alluded to).


I completely disagree. I think if they rule for the baker, that will embolden people of all faiths to discriminate further. A big portion of this case is - where is the line? What about other wedding vendors, are they free to discriminate as well? Florists, make up artists? What about venues? Caterers? How far will this spread? This needs to be shut down immediately.

I think it is incredible that you think one particular religion is the one who has gotten the free pass when bakers, florists, and venue owners of that particular religion have specifically been targeted with legal action! This guy isn't the only one. I can guarantee you that other bakeries with owners of other religions have refused to bake certain cakes. They just haven't been pursued legally.

I totally get your point and to an extent realize this is a complicated situation. Those who do not value religious freedom will never get the other viewpoint. All people of that particular religion are NOT going to make the same decision as the baker, but again, I am certain there are some cakes I would not make, and I'll bet there'd be some that every person here would find it hard or impossible to make based on personal beliefs, religious or not. My daughter is an artist, and I cannot imagine her being forced to accept commissions for work that would go against her core beliefs.

Would you want to be forced to design and paint Trump's campaign signs? I have a feeling many would want to refuse that job.

 

[pearlsngems]

I would have baked and decorated that wedding cake however the couple wished, but there certainly are things I would not agree to write on a cake, in another situation.

It's complicated, and no matter how the Supreme Court decides, there will be both good and bad ripple effects down the road.

 

[House Cat]

I agree that making a KKK or Nazi celebration cake isn't analogous. But it's not that this baker wouldn't serve a customer with the inherent trait of being gay. He's not denying anyone the "right" to his service based on a belief system, he's just refusing to make same-sex wedding cakes and halloween cakes.

Years ago I remember Calvin Klein was asked on a talk show why he didn't design clothing in plus sizes. (I think it was on the Oprah show.) His response was that his design aesthetic was not suited to that body type. The response did not go over well. He felt that there were other designers that were more attuned to designing for that market. Should he have been sued? Being plus size can also be an inherent trait. Why should larger women be forced to go somewhere else to buy clothing?

Just playing devil's advocate...I think the baker should have just baked the damned cake or the couple should have just gone somewhere else.

Years ago, people tolerated behavior like Cavin’s, who currently designs plus sized clothing, btw. More recently, when the CEO of Abercrombie & Fitch told an interviewer that he didn’t want overweight people wearing his brand and that he only wanted “young and hot people” wearing it, the backlash was great. The people took action and decided to donate all of their A&F clothing to the homeless. People even went to thrift stores, bought the brand and then donated those clothes to the homeless. Young and hot indeed. A&F’s stock plummeted and the brand has never recovered. This is the more modern attitude toward exclusion.

For this gay couple, it isn’t just a cake. It is about being hurt and excluded over and over again throughout their lives. They wanted to stand up for themselves. I never judge someone for that.

I do prickle at a person who wants to reduce someone’s personal battle to the lowest common denominator. I find that behavior to be a pathway to bullying. First reduce the feelings, then minimize the plight, lastly belittle the person. We all know this is about so much more that a stupid cake.

 

[AGBF]

MariaD pointed out that one cannot go into a kosher deli and expect to order a ham sandwich. If one goes into a kosher bakery, one has to buy the products they make there, too. I know because I do that routinely. (My Roman Catholic sister-in-law and both my nieces are lactose intolerant and the only way that we can safely obtain cakes and cookies for large parties for them is by buying parve bakery items at a strict Jewish kosher bakery. For those who are unfamiliar with Jewish dietary laws, observant Jews must keep meat and dairy products separate. Parve items can be eaten with meat or dairy meals, so they must not contain any dairy products. The cakes that taste like buttercream or whipped cream have no actual cream in them.)

One cannot order a parve carrot cake in the bakery I frequent, for example. It simply cannot be made by that bakery. Or the bakery will not make it. I do not know which it is. I have often wished I could get a carrot cake for my family, but I cannot. I doubt that the bakery's objection to making a parve carrot cake is religious. It is probably just too difficult to execute. I really do not think that the law could force a Jewish bakery to mix kosher and non-kosher utensils and ingredients, though. I would think that doing that would be seen as an infringement on freedom of religion. So I do think that Jewish and Muslim businesses (because Muslims butcher according to Halal practices and Jews according to kosher practices and their methods are similar enough to allow them to buy from each others' butchers) do need protection from the Constitution just as do Christian businesses.

AGBF

 

[House Cat]

MariaD pointed out that one cannot go into a kosher deli and expect to order a ham sandwich. If one goes into a kosher bakery, one has to buy the products they make there, too. I know because I do that routinely. (My Roman Catholic sister-in-law and both my nieces are lactose intolerant and the only way that we can safely obtain cakes and cookies for large parties for them is by buying parve bakery items at a strict Jewish kosher bakery. For those who are unfamiliar with Jewish dietary laws, observant Jews must keep meat and dairy products separate. Parve items can be eaten with meat or dairy meals, so they must not contain any dairy products. The cakes that taste like buttercream or whipped cream have no actual cream in them.)

One cannot order a parve carrot cake in the bakery I frequent, for example. It simply cannot be made by that bakery. Or the bakery will not make it. I do not know which it is. I have often wished I could get a carrot cake for my family, but I cannot. I doubt that the bakery's objection to making a parve carrot cake is religious. It is probably just too difficult to execute. I really do not think that the law could force a Jewish bakery to mix kosher and non-kosher utensils and ingredients, though. I would think that doing that would be seen as an infringement on freedom of religion. So I do think that Jewish and Muslim businesses (because Muslims butcher according to Halal practices and Jews according to kosher practices and their methods are similar enough to allow them to buy from each others' butchers) do need protection from the Constitution just as do Christian businesses.

AGBF

I’m good with labeling these Christian businesses who don’t want to serve certain populations so that we can protect the public. How about “Christian Bigot Bakery?” “Misguided Christian Bakery?” “Westboro Bakery?”

I can get behind that. This way good people won’t give these businesses their money.

 

[Calliecake]

You are on a roll @House Cat . This is about sooo much more than a cake.

 

[missy]

MariaD pointed out that one cannot go into a kosher deli and expect to order a ham sandwich. If one goes into a kosher bakery, one has to buy the products they make there, too. I know because I do that routinely. (My Roman Catholic sister-in-law and both my nieces are lactose intolerant and the only way that we can safely obtain cakes and cookies for large parties for them is by buying parve bakery items at a strict Jewish kosher bakery. For those who are unfamiliar with Jewish dietary laws, observant Jews must keep meat and dairy products separate. Parve items can be eaten with meat or dairy meals, so they must not contain any dairy products. The cakes that taste like buttercream or whipped cream have no actual cream in them.)

One cannot order a parve carrot cake in the bakery I frequent, for example. It simply cannot be made by that bakery. Or the bakery will not make it. I do not know which it is. I have often wished I could get a carrot cake for my family, but I cannot. I doubt that the bakery's objection to making a parve carrot cake is religious. It is probably just too difficult to execute. I really do not think that the law could force a Jewish bakery to mix kosher and non-kosher utensils and ingredients, though. I would think that doing that would be seen as an infringement on freedom of religion. So I do think that Jewish and Muslim businesses (because Muslims butcher according to Halal practices and Jews according to kosher practices and their methods are similar enough to allow them to buy from each others' butchers) do need protection from the Constitution just as do Christian businesses.

AGBF

But Deb if a person who isn't Jewish or one who is non observant enters the deli and asks to be served the same sandwich as that butcher serves a Jewish person that customer will get that sandwich. Hamless and all. He/She won't be told by the butcher sorry we don't serve non observant or non Jewish individuals here. But wait here's a pre prepared atheist sandwich I can serve you. There you go.

 

[jordyonbass]

I’m good with labeling these Christian businesses who don’t want to serve certain populations so that we can protect the public. How about “Christian Bigot Bakery?” “Misguided Christian Bakery?” “Westboro Bakery?”

I can get behind that. This way good people won’t give these businesses their money.

I brought that up initially in this thread; there's more than one bakery/wedding celebrant/reception venue in this world, if someone wants to wave their flag high enough saying they won't serve the community that's their own issue since there is another company that is willing to do business with them. I can't see why any business proprietor would turn away a customer willing to spend money, that simply isn't good business.

I know a vegan that builds meat smokers for a living, I used to serve alcohol during a 2 year period where I had completely refrained from alcohol, I don't understand why it is so hard to separate beliefs from business for some people.

 

[telephone89]

I think it is incredible that you think one particular religion is the one who has gotten the free pass when bakers, florists, and venue owners of that particular religion have specifically been targeted with legal action! This guy isn't the only one. I can guarantee you that other bakeries with owners of other religions have refused to bake certain cakes. They just haven't been pursued legally.

I totally get your point and to an extent realize this is a complicated situation. Those who do not value religious freedom will never get the other viewpoint. All people of that particular religion are NOT going to make the same decision as the baker, but again, I am certain there are some cakes I would not make, and I'll bet there'd be some that every person here would find it hard or impossible to make based on personal beliefs, religious or not. My daughter is an artist, and I cannot imagine her being forced to accept commissions for work that would go against her core beliefs.

Would you want to be forced to design and paint Trump's campaign signs? I have a feeling many would want to refuse that job.

Yes, I absolutely think this religion gets a free pass. And rightfully so they are getting legal action, they are breaking the law. Hence the point of this thread

It is indeed a complicated situation, but I do not agree that one religion [or any] should be able to allow citizens to discriminate. No idea what happened to church and state here, that always seems to get convoluted whenever certain religions get involved.

 

[Maria D]

But Deb if a person who isn't Jewish or one who is non observant enters the deli and asks to be served the same sandwich as that butcher serves a Jewish person that customer will get that sandwich. Hamless and all. He/She won't be told by the butcher sorry we don't serve non observant or non Jewish individuals here. But wait here's a pre prepared atheist sandwich I can serve you. There you go.

Interesting analogy! I don't feel it exactly hits the mark because it's not a ceremonial sandwich that only Jews are supposed to eat. (Not that *I* believe the ceremony/institution of marriage is only for straights, but that is what our Colorado baker believes.) Anyway, it got me wondering if an Orthodox Jewish baker would bake a wedding cake for an interfaith marriage. So I googled that and found this intriguing article:

http://jewishjournal.com/opinion/david_benkof/228275/must-jewish-baker-decorate-agunahs-wedding-cake/

From the article:

The remarriage of agunot* gives traditional rabbis and laypeople nightmares, and they schvitz nonstop to prevent mamzerim. The Orthodox Jews I know would not only refuse to provide such events with creative services – like baking cakes or writing calligraphy for ketubot (marriage certificates) – but many would resist providing non-creative services like catering and wedding halls as well.

As with Masterpiece, nobody is discriminating against agunot. Orthodox Jewish bakers would gladly sell them bagels or hamentashen. They just can’t participate in an event they abhor.

*a woman who has not received a religious divorce.

If anyone is interested in the transcript of the oral arguments of the SC case, you can find it here:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/05/politics/scotus-oral-arguments-transcript/index.html

I find it fascinating to read how the SCJ's are picking this apart even more than we are!