Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the stone?

[carbonriot]

I'm very tempted to buy a J color stone, but it says strong white fluorescence. I've not seen the white fluorescence before and spent my time searching on Google and on Pricescope forums. There were a couple of others that asked this question, but I didn't see a good answer from anyone commenting on what exactly how white fluorescence affects a diamond. Any thoughts appreciated.

I've read many people commenting strong blue is good for J/I because it'll appear whiter, but what happens with white fluorescence?

 

[kenny]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

In ultraviolet light or light with strong UV content, such as sunlight, the stone will glow white.

I found a pic of Strong White Fluorescence from here ... http://www.fancydiamonds.net/diamond_education/diamond_fluorescence#.UXeFuL_A4qY

 

[carbonriot]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

Thanks for the quick reply, I was searching through google images earlier and I found something that wassimilar but I wasn't sure if that was just a white stone or something. Do you think it will affect a diamond's sparkle and have a higher likelihood of having the cloudy look that comes form the blue fluorescence?

Also after reading this page more, this picture may not be from a colorless stone, rather, a fancy color stone of some sort.

Thanks again!

 

[kenny]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

I'd ask the seller to take the stone outside in sunlight and describe what it looks like, and specifically whether it looks cloudy, milky or oily.

The stone above with strong white fluorescence is a green FCD but check out the pic below, which was in my link above.
This pic shows the body color of a diamond may have little or no effect on what color the stone fluoresces.

 

[Christina...]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

I agree with Kenny and would ask the vendor to assess the stone for you. That said, you shouldn't notice any effects of fluorescence in any lighting condition other than UV, so don't a expect a J to look 'whiter' in all lighting environments simply because it has fluorescence. BTW, I think it's really cool that you found a white one. I've never seen that before and would love to see photos if you decide to proceed!

 

[diamondloveaffair]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

Would you happen to have a link to the stone online or did you saw that in a store?

 

[Niel]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

Yes ask if the fluor causes any negative effects like milkiness or oiliness. But that is rare. Assuming its fine and a well cut stone I would be ALL OVER THIS!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

Same here. It would make it highly desirable to me!

 

[lambskin]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

I thought that blue fluorescence made a lower color stone appear whiter. I am now confused. For example, I thought that if one was to purchase a J color diamond that (with all things being equal) that the presence of blue fluorescence would make the color appear more white. I thought that this was the rational of the Brian Gavin blues.

 

[Niel]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

I thought that blue fluorescence made a lower color stone appear whiter. I am now confused. For example, I thought that if one was to purchase a J color diamond that (with all things being equal) that the presence of blue fluorescence would make the color appear more white. I thought that this was the rational of the Brian Gavin blues.

Yes this is all true for stones with fluor. In UV light (the light needed for the fluor to happen) it does effect the color to your eye. What's adding to your confusion?

 

[bunnycat]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

I thought that blue fluorescence made a lower color stone appear whiter. I am now confused. For example, I thought that if one was to purchase a J color diamond that (with all things being equal) that the presence of blue fluorescence would make the color appear more white. I thought that this was the rational of the Brian Gavin blues.

Fluor will help a stone face whiter in situations where the light source emits UV. Sunlight is the most obvious one, but fluorescent lighting like in office situations also emits UV (and so I'm guessing would CFL lighting) in addition to blacklights. So, you actually are in a position to appreciate the good effects of fluor more than you might think.

 

[carbonriot]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

I contacted B2C and they said that the gemologist said the stone looked cloudy and they wouldn't recommend it. I am still tempted to get it, the certificate looks pretty clean, but I guess it must have gotten a SI2 for a reason. But the price is right

Here is the Diamond and stats:

1.5 Ct., J, SI2, Excellent Cut with Excellent Symmetry and Polish

http://www.b2cjewels.com/Images//Certificate//3533769.pdf

http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-3533769-1.50-carat-Round-diamond-J-color-SI2-clarity.aspx

Would love to hear your thoughts.

 

[chrono]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

A milky or cloudy diamond doesn't appeal to me regardless of price because it affects the sparkle.

 

[yssie]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

If you read the article that's usually implicated as the source, GIA is very careful NOT to say that fluor (of any strength) is the sole, direct cause of haziness. I would love to know how that particular nugget became "common knowledge" because I worked with fluorescent markers of all sorts for years, understand perfectly well what fluorescence is, and can't come up with a single reason for why it might be (a sole, direct cause) of haziness in a diamond.

I asked basically that same question in the Research section a long time ago and Garry made the observation that whilst fluor by itself may not be entirely to blame, it might exaggerate the effects of pervasive inclusions...


The point: the report on your stone says "Clarity grade is based on internal graining that is not shown". So I believe them if they say it "looks cloudy" despite the clean plot diagram. I think it'd be a neat curio stone but I wouldn't want it in my engagement ring.

ETA: article http://lgdl.gia.edu/pdfs/W97_fluoresce.pdf

 

[bunnycat]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

If you read the article that's usually implicated as the source, GIA is very careful NOT to say that fluor (of any strength) is the sole, direct cause of haziness. I would love to know how that particular nugget became "common knowledge" because I worked with fluorescent markers of all sorts for years, understand perfectly well what fluorescence is, and can't come up with a single reason for why it might be (a sole, direct cause) of haziness in a diamond.

I asked basically that same question in the Research section a long time ago and Garry made the observation that whilst fluor by itself may not be entirely to blame, it might exaggerate the effects of pervasive inclusions...


The point: the report on your stone says "Clarity grade is based on internal graining that is not shown". So I believe them if they say it "looks cloudy" despite the clean plot diagram. I think it'd be a neat curio stone but I wouldn't want it in my engagement ring.

ETA: article http://lgdl.gia.edu/pdfs/W97_fluoresce.pdf

I remember some time ago watching one of Rhino's vids where he discussed internal graining and it effect on a stone and remember seeing that the stone he was showing compared to a stone without a lot of graining actually had a slight "haze" to it under bright spotlights. I don't know what else to call it, but that's what it looked like to me, so maybe the graining is not playing well with the fluor (and unfortunately I can't look it up, because the computer I am on is old and won't view some of the vids anymore).

Some of the confusion with fluor seems to come from popular hearsay, and I know B/M chains still dub fluor as an automatic bad when in reality, fluor having a negative impact is uncommon, and it seems to come in to play with lower clarity stone, rather than the fluor itself being a problem, because I don't think fluor is a problem by itself (but I love fluor so I may be biased) contrary to what people are told.

 

[yssie]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

If you read the article that's usually implicated as the source, GIA is very careful NOT to say that fluor (of any strength) is the sole, direct cause of haziness. I would love to know how that particular nugget became "common knowledge" because I worked with fluorescent markers of all sorts for years, understand perfectly well what fluorescence is, and can't come up with a single reason for why it might be (a sole, direct cause) of haziness in a diamond.

I asked basically that same question in the Research section a long time ago and Garry made the observation that whilst fluor by itself may not be entirely to blame, it might exaggerate the effects of pervasive inclusions...


The point: the report on your stone says "Clarity grade is based on internal graining that is not shown". So I believe them if they say it "looks cloudy" despite the clean plot diagram. I think it'd be a neat curio stone but I wouldn't want it in my engagement ring.

ETA: article http://lgdl.gia.edu/pdfs/W97_fluoresce.pdf

I remember some time ago watching one of Rhino's vids where he discussed internal graining and it effect on a stone and remember seeing that the stone he was showing compared to a stone without a lot of graining actually had a slight "haze" to it under bright spotlights. I don't know what else to call it, but that's what it looked like to me, so maybe the graining is not playing well with the fluor (and unfortunately I can't look it up, because the computer I am on is old and won't view some of the vids anymore).

Some of the confusion with fluor seems to come from popular hearsay, and I know B/M chains still dub fluor as an automatic bad when in reality, fluor having a negative impact is uncommon, and it seems to come in to play with lower clarity stone, rather than the fluor itself being a problem, because I don't think fluor is a problem by itself (but I love fluor so I may be biased) contrary to what people are told.

That's the heart of my problem (and my ire isn't aimed at you bastet!!)
Until someone can explain WHY fluor causes haziness, it shouldn't be stated as fact.
If fluor + pervasive inclusions may cause haziness then that should be the party line, not the rote "stronger fluor can cause haziness" said however many ways sans any other detail or disclaimers that's inevitably brought up every time someone posts about a stone with fluor...
//rant over.

 

[kenny]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

Until someone can explain WHY fluor causes haziness, it shouldn't be stated as fact.

I agree with you, but as an aside I suspect truly understanding the reason would require a few advanced degrees in science.
Still I'd love to read it, try to anyway.

 

[yssie]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

Until someone can explain WHY fluor causes haziness, it shouldn't be stated as fact.

I agree with you, but as an aside I suspect truly understanding the reason would require a few advanced degrees in science.
Still I'd love to read it, try to anyway.

Maybe we'll get lucky and someone will cough up the big secret, and we can play at decoding it

 

[bcavitt]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

That's the heart of my problem (and my ire isn't aimed at you bastet!!)
Until someone can explain WHY fluor causes haziness, it shouldn't be stated as fact.
If fluor + pervasive inclusions may cause haziness then that should be the party line, not the rote "stronger fluor can cause haziness" said however many ways sans any other detail or disclaimers that's inevitably brought up every time someone posts about a stone with fluor...
//rant over.

From a GIA brochure/card on fluorescence:

"In rare cases, some diamonds with extremely strong flourescence may appear hazy or oily; fewer than 0.2% of the fluorescent diamonds submitted to GIA exhibit this effect."

While this doesn't explain why, it states GIA's position on haziness/fluorescence.

 

[Christina...]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

Here is GIA's study on blue fluorescence, of course I can't say how it relates to other colors.
http://lgdl.gia.edu/pdfs/W97_fluoresce.pdf

 

[bunnycat]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

That's the heart of my problem (and my ire isn't aimed at you bastet!!)
Until someone can explain WHY fluor causes haziness, it shouldn't be stated as fact.
If fluor + pervasive inclusions may cause haziness then that should be the party line, not the rote "stronger fluor can cause haziness" said however many ways sans any other detail or disclaimers that's inevitably brought up every time someone posts about a stone with fluor...
//rant over.

From a GIA brochure/card on fluorescence:

"In rare cases, some diamonds with extremely strong flourescence may appear hazy or oily; fewer than 0.2% of the fluorescent diamonds submitted to GIA exhibit this effect."

While this doesn't explain why, it states GIA's position on haziness/fluorescence.

Unfortunately, it doesn't mention anything about the relation of clarity with this, which may lead to the impression that any fluor causes haziness....

 

[yssie]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

That's the heart of my problem (and my ire isn't aimed at you bastet!!)
Until someone can explain WHY fluor causes haziness, it shouldn't be stated as fact.
If fluor + pervasive inclusions may cause haziness then that should be the party line, not the rote "stronger fluor can cause haziness" said however many ways sans any other detail or disclaimers that's inevitably brought up every time someone posts about a stone with fluor...
//rant over.

From a GIA brochure/card on fluorescence:

"In rare cases, some diamonds with extremely strong flourescence may appear hazy or oily; fewer than 0.2% of the fluorescent diamonds submitted to GIA exhibit this effect."

While this doesn't explain why, it states GIA's position on haziness/fluorescence.

This is a quote from a tutorial post that contains a simplified easy-to-swallow summary of the material in the Fluorescence Study referenced at the beginning of the paragraph - the study Christina linked. I don't care for the phrasing - correlation does not imply causation, though the ambiguous wording certainly lends itself to that conclusion - however I do believe the study referenced is intended to be the critical data source, and nowhere in the study itself does GIA draw this explicit conclusion (that fluorescence is, in some instances, the sole, direct cause of haziness). If it was intended otherwise I doubt it's an omission of error - the paper editors I've met are way too careful about CYA for that

I would honestly love to read an explanation - I don't care what the party line is, I care why!

 

[yssie]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

That's the heart of my problem (and my ire isn't aimed at you bastet!!)
Until someone can explain WHY fluor causes haziness, it shouldn't be stated as fact.
If fluor + pervasive inclusions may cause haziness then that should be the party line, not the rote "stronger fluor can cause haziness" said however many ways sans any other detail or disclaimers that's inevitably brought up every time someone posts about a stone with fluor...
//rant over.

From a GIA brochure/card on fluorescence:

"In rare cases, some diamonds with extremely strong flourescence may appear hazy or oily; fewer than 0.2% of the fluorescent diamonds submitted to GIA exhibit this effect."

While this doesn't explain why, it states GIA's position on haziness/fluorescence.

Unfortunately, it doesn't mention anything about the relation of clarity with this, which may lead to the impression that any fluor causes haziness....

Yeah - this is the thread I was talking about [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/what-causes-haziness-in-some-stones-w-fluor.156221/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/what-causes-haziness-in-some-stones-w-fluor.156221/[/URL]

 

[arkieb1]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

Hi,

I have seen a RB with strong blue Fluorescence in a shop once that did look less transparent than other stones with similar cuts it was a GIA triple ex cut and it wasn't exactly oily or milky looking but it really didn't have the fire and sparkle that it should have. Saying that it was less transparent than similar stones is the best way I can describe it, it was like it was trying to be really brilliant but just couldn't be.... I have seen another stone with strong blue fluorescence and it was amazing made it look much whiter face up and it had a slight blue glow in the sunlight.

I was under the impression stones with white fluorescence and yellow fluorescence should be avoided unless it's a yellow or other fancy coloured diamond where it can enhance the colour. I have seen one small diamond with white fluorescence once and it was milky. Very milky like that frozen spit type of look you get when stones are heavily included. It might be worth getting just to examine for fun, but I wouldn't buy a stone like that to own.

 

[bunnycat]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

Hi,

I have seen a RB with strong blue Fluorescence in a shop once that did look less transparent than other stones with similar cuts it was a GIA triple ex cut and it wasn't exactly oily or milky looking but it really didn't have the fire and sparkle that it should have. Saying that it was less transparent than similar stones is the best way I can describe it, it was like it was trying to be really brilliant but just couldn't be.... I have seen another stone with strong blue fluorescence and it was amazing made it look much whiter face up and it had a slight blue glow in the sunlight.

I was under the impression stones with white fluorescence and yellow fluorescence should be avoided unless it's a yellow or other fancy coloured diamond where it can enhance the colour. I have seen one small diamond with white fluorescence once and it was milky. Very milky like that frozen spit type of look you get when stones are heavily included. It might be worth getting just to examine for fun, but I wouldn't buy a stone like that to own.

One trouble with this assumption is that not all GIA XXX are the same (ie- just because it's a GIA XXX doesn't make it a showstopper). There's a wide range in XXX) And again, there may be other issues that contributed to the effect that you may not have been aware of (like maybe graining or some type of inclusion like clouds) so really, you can't just say strong fluor causes milkiness just because you saw a diamond that had strong fluor and looked odd. There may have been (and probably were) a lot of other factors involved. That's kind of like concluding that because you saw one Granny Smith apple with a soft spot at the store, all GS apples must have soft spots....

 

[GreenBling]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

I contacted B2C and they said that the gemologist said the stone looked cloudy and they wouldn't recommend it. I am still tempted to get it, the certificate looks pretty clean, but I guess it must have gotten a SI2 for a reason. But the price is right

Here is the Diamond and stats:

1.5 Ct., J, SI2, Excellent Cut with Excellent Symmetry and Polish

http://www.b2cjewels.com/Images//Certificate//3533769.pdf

http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-3533769-1.50-carat-Round-diamond-J-color-SI2-clarity.aspx

Would love to hear your thoughts.

I would'nt consider a stone that even the seller recommends against -- that, i know for sure!

 

[arkieb1]

Re: Strong White Fluorescence, how does that affect the ston

"One trouble with this assumption is that not all GIA XXX are the same (ie- just because it's a GIA XXX doesn't make it a showstopper). There's a wide range in XXX) And again, there may be other issues that contributed to the effect that you may not have been aware of (like maybe graining or some type of inclusion like clouds) so really, you can't just say strong fluor causes milkiness just because you saw a diamond that had strong fluor and looked odd. There may have been (and probably were) a lot of other factors involved. That's kind of like concluding that because you saw one Granny Smith apple with a soft spot at the store, all GS apples must have soft spots...."

Normally I would agree with you but I also saw the certificate, I asked to see it, because I was intrigued by the stone, it was a triple xxx GIA with H & A and it would have fallen into the range of AGS Ideal O. It was immaculately cut it had NO surface OR internal graining. It had no clouds and from memory, it was a VVS2. It is the ONLY stone I have ever seen like it, that was that well cut that truly was impacted not enhanced by strong blue fluorescence. There is probably only a small percentage of them out there, but they are out there. I actually think it was really groovy that I got to see it!!!!

I have also seen stones with both surface and internal graining and it did not look like either, when you loupe them or put them under a scope they have things that look like fine lines that run along inside the diamond or on the surface that can impact transparency, this was different again.