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Strong Fluorescence in F color OK?

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g8erh8er

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
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Hi all. I''m new and have been doing quite a bit of research after discovering this site. I''ve found a nice 1.04 carat F color that scores .6 on the cut advisor. It''s an SI1, but the inclusions are minimal. Only problem is it has strong blue fluorescence according to the AGS report. While I know fluorescence can make a diamond appear even less colorless, will it do much to help a diamond that is already lacking most color? This diamond is priced about $400 below other comparible diamonds I have been looking at, and I think it''s due to the fluorescence.

Is the cloudiness effect of flour. even more apparent in diamonds of the F-G color range rather than diamonds in the I-H range?
 
I think if a diamond is going to be cloudy, it''s going to be no matter what the color grade is of the stone. I think that cloudiness is very rare. HERE is an interesting article about fluorescence. It should not detract from the beauty of your stone.
 
my understanding is that in fact ANY level of fluorescence is okay in any color IF--I repeat IF- it does not cause cloudiness or milkiness in various types of lighting envoronments..............fluorescence is a gift to almost any stone providing it does not affect the clarity of the crystal
 
I am currently looking to buy a stone F color with med blue Flour. I am little bit hesitating to buy that stone. I am going to talk to an appraiser from White Flash before I make my decision whether to buy or not. Remember my case is medium blue flour. Your scenario is a strong blue Flour. Personally I wouldn''t put my money on a high color (F) with strong blue flour. Cloudiness is rare, but when you are in an environment where the there is UV light, then your stone will glow blue, which some people like and some don''t. Since yours is strong blue flour, even at the slightest UV unvironment, it will have a blue tint. I would recommend maybe a faint or medium flour with stones G or higher. Strong flour with H, and very strong with stones I color or lower. You can read my other posts regarding Flouresence.
 
Date: 11/27/2004 5:16:31 PM
Author: kevinraja

Since yours is strong blue flour, even at the slightest UV unvironment, it will have a blue tint.
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... err... as in "fancy light blue" ?
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Date: 11/27/2004 5:16:31 PM
Author: kevinraja
I would recommend maybe a faint or medium flour with stones G or higher. Strong flour with H, and very strong with stones I color or lower.
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I was under the impression that very strong fl was generally accepted as a bad thing? That of all the fl grading levels, very strong fl was most likely to create cloudiness?
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Strong blue flurescence in an F color makes it "worth" at least 15% less than a comparable stone with "none." While many people think it ought not be that way, the market has spoken. Usually, however, fluorescent stones look just as nice or nicer than stones that don''t fluoresce, so if your concern is appearance rather than "value," don''t be put off by the blue.
 
I just bought an E diamond with strong blue flouresence. The diamond is not cloudy and looks beautiful.
 
MooseWendy would you like to substantiate that 15% figure?
 
garry

what are you inferring (really)?
 
Garry- I''m surprised to be asked to "substantiate" something which no one in the diamond trade would find particularly controversial. I suppose we could quibble over whether the right discount iis 10% or 15%, but I can''t imagine that''s your point. Keep in mind that I didn''t say that anything was wrong with most strong blue stones, only that the market value was significantly lower. If your only concern is the appearance of the stone, strong blue stones are great precisely because the market discounts them significantly for no good reason. If, however, you''re concerned about "value," you should be wary, since strong blue stones in high colors are, in fact, "worth" considerably less.
 
moosewendy

in your opinion-does faint fluor in a d color affect the price? how much?
 
Faint has no effect on the diamond''s appearance or on price. Medium has only a small effect on price, if any. Only strong and very strong are significantly discounted. Personally, I believe that this is irrational, since all the studies have indicated that very few fluorescent stones are cloudy, even if the fluorescence is very strong. Nevertheless, the discount is a fact of life. The only way to tell whether the fluorescence will make a stone cloudy is to see it, so if you''re buying sight unseen, then strong blue does involve a bit of a dice roll, though the odds are in your favor.
 
Date: 11/28/2004 2:51
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5 PM
Author: moosewendy
Strong blue flurescence in an F color makes it ''worth'' at least 15% less than a comparable stone with ''none.'' While many people think it ought not be that way, the market has spoken. Usually, however, fluorescent stones look just as nice or nicer than stones that don''t fluoresce, so if your concern is appearance rather than ''value,'' don''t be put off by the blue.
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At least 15% is not maybe 10%. and if Strong Blue is at least 15% then how much discount for Very SB?

MooseWendy can you please correctly estimate the discounts - the reason I ask is that you have knowledge but what you wrote appears to be a very big exaggeration - and if consumers read it and go out haggling, then Pricescope as a source of info will get a bad name.
 
Garry - the discounts for strong blues vary from vendor to vendor, and while some vendors will discount 15% or more, you are correct that some will discount as little as 5%. You cannot assume that because a stone has strong blue, the vendor will negotiate a substantially lower price.
 
I wonder if any of you regulars who are good with spread sheets, graphing and number crunching could devise any testing methods to find the pricing effects of fluoro form the diamond listings on Pricescope?
It would be especially good to see the effect by color and by strength of fluoro.
 
Garry, perhaps organized in a format such as this?

(1998 Rapaport - I may have gotten this image from one of your posts?)

98fluoro.jpg
 
Great idea John.
But some graphs to show the distribution of say 0% to 10% or whatever would be cool.

I often wonder if Rap reports this data - or creates the pricing?

PS that list could be proprietary and may need authorization?
 
Date: 11/30/2004 1:30:43 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

I often wonder if Rap reports this data - or creates the pricing?
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Food for thought.

I got that image from another thread at some point a while back.
No indication of copyright, but better to play it safe - thanks.
(emailed Leonid)
 
Cool

For an example of strangeness - what has clarity and fluoro got to do wiith the price of eggs in a fish market?
 
Gary:

That answer is obvious. It keeps creative people like you intrested in the world - where you find all kinds of usefull tidbits for us.

Perry
 

I just ran a small stats for 1.0-1.49 ct F-G-H color Rounds, GIA, reasonable table and depth, very good/good polish and symmetry.


IF-VVS VS SI
Faint 1.4% 0.2% 1.1%
Medium 1.8% 3.7% 3.3%
Strong 6.1% 6.2% 7.5%

Keep in mind: this is limited stats so these numbers are just for indication.

 

Same as above but color I, J and K; clarity VS-SI


Faint +0.3%
Medium -1.4%
Strong -1.5%
 
Also food for thought. If an I color diamond appears whiter because of strong blue, wouldn''t the average public find "value" in that? Thus making it more saleable to the buying public?

Case in point, when I went to view my stone, another estate jeweler walked in (yes, that biz is very incestuous - we all buy from one another for our "specialty"). The jeweler was floored at the price & subsequent specs on color. At that point I had decided it was the one; but, he mentioned that if I didn''t take it that he may have a client for it. He seemed to think that it had bang for the buck. I''ve often refered to my stone as a bluff stone - big, appealing yet not the finest of quality on paper.

Regarding the IF thing - I would think that since the industry views Fluor as a flaw - then that would translate to wanting something without any flaws - hence the discount for the *perceived* flaw of fluor.

I just don''t get the industry stance on this issue. Can it simply be clouded in the whole blue white scandal?
 
The negative view of fluorescence is demand driven, not a rational thought out industry "stance." The upper portion of the food chain (debeers, manufacturers, wholesalers) would very much prefer that fluorescence not be discounted, since the discount diminishes the value of a significant portion of their merchandise. The bad rap for fluorescence came from retailers trying to make their competition look bad by telling customers " I would never sell a fluorescencent stone." In order to protect their reputations, many reputable stores started to resist fluorescence so that the competition couldn''t bad mouth them. Unfortunately, all efforts by the industry, GIA, etc to educate consumers as to the real meaning of fluorescence have failed. The negative P.R., though unfair, became the dominant force in the market, forcing people to discount blues in order to sell them.
 
Then, if this isn''t an industry stance, please explain why these blue white (blue fluor) stones were in such high demand prior to the scandal. I see it as a direct cause and effect. Prior to the "scandal", demand was great for these blue white stones. The industry created the controversay. The industry can choose to continue to shy away from such stones as to not to appear to promote these "blue whites".

It''s a dinosaur view - but it doesn''t surprise me.
 
What I find interesting is that the CFR does not prohibit the use of the term "Blue-White Diamond." It only restricts its use to specific stones that exhibit a very specific form of fluorescense. I have not seen anyone advertising these stones - yet they must exist.

Might be I''m interested in them...

Perry
 
Leonid,

Was that a discount to the price or premium? What about for 1.5-1.99 GHI.
Thanks
 
Date: 11/30/2004 2
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3:18 PM
Author: perry
What I find interesting is that the CFR does not prohibit the use of the term ''Blue-White Diamond.'' It only restricts its use to specific stones that exhibit a very specific form of fluorescense. I have not seen anyone advertising these stones - yet they must exist.

Might be I''m interested in them...

Perry
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Yes, they exist; but, following the controversy, I doubt anyone will tout them. Shame, as they really do have a special quality. One which I like. But, it does have an effect. Some cutters claim that a stone with such effect can not be cut to precise ideal proportions. Don''t know if that is true also. A little birdy told me that.
 
All of that goes to the P.R. issue, which is grounded in what retailers tell their customers (and what the more educated customers read in books or learn in forums like pricescope). Since the "industry" cannot help getting fluorescent stones out of the ground, the discount applied to strong blue stones costs diamond manufacturers a fortune. If there is an industry "stance" coming from a source other than retailers, where do you think it emanates from? Can it be found in any materials put out by Debeers, any of the major diamond bourses, or any of the major labs. I don''t think so. On the contrary, the GIA has put out materials debunking the fluoresence myth.
 
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