Stone Too Good to Be True? (AGA vs. EGL Int''l)

[vardamann]

I recently found what seems to be a great deal on a stone at a retailer on Philadelphia's jeweler's row. The stone looks stunning (Hearts & Arrows, F/G, VS), is graded an excellent cut (1.1) by the Holloway cut advisor and is 20 to 30% cheaper than similar stones online. However, the stone was certified by EGL Israel, so I have my doubts about the authenticity of the certification. The jeweler offered to send the stone to Accredited Gem Appraisers (AGA) in Philadelphia for a third-party appraisal. Needless to say, AGA arrived at the same ratings as EGL and even appraised the stone for more than double the retail price. Now I'm wondering if I've found a deal that's too good to be true. I have a few questions which you might help answer:

1) I've noticed that GIA or AGS certified stones generally retail for more than EGL certified stones. If a jeweler can get a high quality stone GIA certified and sell the stone at a nice premium, why bother getting an EGL certification and selling at a lower price?
2) Is the AGA truly a third-party in this situation, especially since the jeweler sent the stone to the AGA for an appraisal? My worst fear is to open up the Philadelphia Inquirer next month and discover the AGA has secretly been in the pocket of jewelers for years (although I must note that these forums and various people I've met have good things to say about the AGA's professionalism and integrity).
3) Is it still reasonable for me to ask the jeweler for a GIA certification? The jeweler gave me several excuses why it's difficult to get a GIA certification (turnaround would take several weeks, much higher certification cost, GIA typically doesn't certify loose stones from retailers etc). I'm not sure whether the jeweler is merely giving me a stiff arm or getting a GIA certification truly isn't practical.
4) Would it improve the stone's integrity and appraisal value to inscribe the AGA certification number? For some reason, EGL never bothered to inscribe the stone with the certification number.

With the aforementioned stone and setting, I am already well above my ring budget, otherwise I would purchase a GIA certified stone. At what point should I have peace of mind in the quality of the stone? What would you do if you were in my shoes?

Thanks for your comments in advance!
Vardamann

 

[tyty333]

2)This was not an independent appraisal because the jeweler requested it and I assume also paid for. So to me its
not worth much.

3)Most of what the jeweler said about getting it GIA certified is true...except that GIA wont certify loose stones
from retailers.

4) Wont change the value of the stone but it is something nice to have to verify your stone. My stone does not
have an inscription and I dont worry about it. If I was to send my stone off to GIA to have it regraded I would
have them do it (I think). Otherwise...get a 20X scope and use your stones clarity map from it certification to
verify its your stone (actually I''m not sure if EGL has a map).

Have you looked at the prices of AGS/GIA stones that are 1 to 2 color/clarity levels down than the one you are looking
at? Pricewise this might be a better comparision but all stones must be evaluated on their own merits.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/15/2010 6:15:38 PM
Author:vardamann
I recently found what seems to be a great deal on a stone at a retailer on Philadelphia's jeweler's row. The stone looks stunning (Hearts & Arrows, F/G, VS), is graded an excellent cut (1.1) by the Holloway cut advisor and is 20 to 30% cheaper than similar stones online. However, the stone was certified by EGL Israel, so I have my doubts about the authenticity of the certification. The jeweler offered to send the stone to Accredited Gem Appraisers (AGA) in Philadelphia for a third-party appraisal. Needless to say, AGA arrived at the same ratings as EGL and even appraised the stone for more than double the retail price. Now I'm wondering if I've found a deal that's too good to be true. I have a few questions which you might help answer:

1) I've noticed that GIA or AGS certified stones generally retail for more than EGL certified stones. If a jeweler can get a high quality stone GIA certified and sell the stone at a nice premium, why bother getting an EGL certification and selling at a lower price?
2) Is the AGA truly a third-party in this situation, especially since the jeweler sent the stone to the AGA for an appraisal? My worst fear is to open up the Philadelphia Inquirer next month and discover the AGA has secretly been in the pocket of jewelers for years (although I must note that these forums and various people I've met have good things to say about the AGA's professionalism and integrity). AGA have an excellent rep so you can trust their opinion. They have also been in business a very long time.


3) Is it still reasonable for me to ask the jeweler for a GIA certification? The jeweler gave me several excuses why it's difficult to get a GIA certification (turnaround would take several weeks, much higher certification cost, GIA typically doesn't certify loose stones from retailers etc). I'm not sure whether the jeweler is merely giving me a stiff arm or getting a GIA certification truly isn't practical. It depends on you and if you can come to an agreement with the jeweller, if the stone graded higher then they might want to increase the price. If you ever wanted to try to resell the diamond then a GIA report would make a difficult undertaking a little easier perhaps.
4) Would it improve the stone's integrity and appraisal value to inscribe the AGA certification number? For some reason, EGL never bothered to inscribe the stone with the certification number. Inscriptions can be useful for identification purposes but thats about all.

With the aforementioned stone and setting, I am already well above my ring budget, otherwise I would purchase a GIA certified stone. At what point should I have peace of mind in the quality of the stone? What would you do if you were in my shoes? I would trust AGA's opinion in the appraisal but you don't sound comfortable....Maybe it might be best to look at some GIA graded stones before pulling the trigger.

Thanks for your comments in advance!
Vardamann

 

[vardamann]

Thanks for your comments so far!

 

[WinkHPD]

EGL Israel have one of the lowest reputations in the industry and the only way to know for sure what a real top tier lab such as GIA or AGS would grade the stone is to have it sent to one of them. Here is the deal I always made with my clients in those rare occassions when I showed a stone that was not either not papered or not from AGS or GIA.

Deal: I will send the stone to AGS or GIA, your choice, and if it comes back within one color or clarity grade of how I grade it, you pay for the report. If it comes back off by one or more grades in both color or clarity, or by more than one grade in either color or clarity, I will pay for the report and I will adjust the price to fit the new report.

Obviously I did not offer this deal if I was not already VERY comfortable with what I graded the stone to be.

Also. Am I the only one troubled by the high retail appraisal? I have never been a fan of double the cost appraisals, all they do is raise the cost of insurance, the insurance company will not pay more than it costs to acquire a stone of the same value, and with an EGL Israel report, you will never be likely to get as good a replacement stone as this one is purported to be. If you want to be properly protected, my opinion is you need a report form a top tier lab that states exactly what you have, especially in the cut parameters, so that you can receive what you deserve in the unfortunate event of a loss.

Just my thoughts.

Wink

 

[denverappraiser]

1) I've noticed that GIA or AGS certified stones generally retail for more than EGL certified stones. If a jeweler can get a high quality stone GIA certified and sell the stone at a nice premium, why bother getting an EGL certification and selling at a lower price?


EGL stones are not cheaper, they are graded differently. Comparing stones between GIA and EGL using the reported grade is not comparing apples to apples. The reason dealers get lab reports is because they help sell stones. The reason to get GIA is because they can trade on the brand name of GIA and the reason to get EGL is because the grades tend to be more attractive. The decision of which lab to choose is made strategically by experts and the objective is to maximize sales prices.


2) Is the AGA truly a third-party in this situation, especially since the jeweler sent the stone to the AGA for an appraisal? My worst fear is to open up the Philadelphia Inquirer next month and discover the AGA has secretly been in the pocket of jewelers for years (although I must note that these forums and various people I've met have good things to say about the AGA's professionalism and integrity).

I have great respect for the folks at AGA but I agree that this is not an independent appraisal precisely because the jeweler was the client. For what it’s worth, I would count AGA as a MUCH more reliable source than, say, the Philadelphia Inquirer, but it what you’re looking for is an independent 3rd party opinion, you haven’t got it yet.


3) Is it still reasonable for me to ask the jeweler for a GIA certification? The jeweler gave me several excuses why it's difficult to get a GIA certification (turnaround would take several weeks, much higher certification cost, GIA typically doesn't certify loose stones from retailers etc). I'm not sure whether the jeweler is merely giving me a stiff arm or getting a GIA certification truly isn't practical.

It does take a couple of weeks with shipping and all and it does cost money. Here’s their fee structure, you can decide for yourself it you think it's unreasonable:
http://www.gia.edu/lab-reports-services/fees_payment/lab_fees/DiamondFees-USD-Sep.pdf

They’ll accept work from anyone who will pay them. Everyone pays the same rates.
By all means it’s fair that the lab fees should be added to your cost, possibly even including a 'handling' charge.
My deal would be even harsher than Winks. They send it to GIA for grading and, if it comes back as good or better than what their chosen grader says then you buy the stone at the full asking price plus lab fees and shipping. Anything less, the deal’s off and they have a GIA report for use with the next customer if they want. They (and you) are welcome to make a counter offer for a new deal to buy the stone if you want but neither of you is under any obligation.

On caveat both this and Wink's deal. It's entirely possible, probable even, that they don't own the stone and the person who does may be unwilling to either have it tied up for the required time or to commit to the expense if it doesn't fly at GIA. They might even already have sent it in themselves and this is the reason they're selling it with EGLI paperwork. This puts the dealer in a nasty pickle. This may be a deal killer for that particular stone but I wouldn't necessarily hold it against the dealer.

4) Would it improve the stone's integrity and appraisal value to inscribe the AGA certification number? For some reason, EGL never bothered to inscribe the stone with the certification number.

No, although I think AGA offers an inscription service and you might want to inscribe the EGL number. It will have no affect on the value but it does sometimes make it easier to recognize the stone and it does tend to make people more comfortable. I don’t think it’s an expensive service.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[ButterRex]

I''m slightly confused as to whether the diamond was regraded and certified by AGA, or whether AGA just gave an appraisal.
Do you have a new certificate number or physical AGA-CERT?

For the experts out there....why wouldn''t an AGA-CERT be good enough in this scenario?

I''ve read some of the threads on AGA and it seems like the consensus is that an AGA certification is just as reputable as an AGS or GIA cert....it''s just that the market perception isn''t there. But either way, it''s better than the EGL-Israel cert right?

 

[Lula]

Date: 3/16/2010 10:26:19 AM
Author: denverappraiser



EGL stones are not cheaper, they are graded differently. Comparing stones between GIA and EGL using the reported grade is not comparing apples to apples.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Appraisals in Denver

This is such an important statement, Neil. Before you pay for an EGL G VS2, and think you're getting a great deal, compare the price of the EGL stone to a GIA or AGS J or K color and SI2 or I1 or I2 stone. The price for the EGL stone will no doubt look less like a good deal to you.

Also, GIA and AGS give cut grades; I'm not sure if EGL does.

 

[oldminer]

AGA is my old lab which I sold in January 2008 to Chris DiCamillo. He is well trained and not in the pocket or under the control of any sellers. However, one may question the potential for local bias in favor of a frequent customer such as your jeweler.

The high appraisal could relect a non-Jeweler's Row retail value and be correct, but you surely do not need to buy twice as much insurance as the stone cost you and "feel good" reports are pretty much a waste of time for knowledgable shoppers. At one time such high values were more common. You could have a great value, but I would suggest you be careful about 100% faith in the color and clarity grades without an AGS or GIA report. When I made AGA reports, I did everything possible to mimic GIA results and I know Chris would want to do that, too. How well he is able to do it, I can't say for certain, since I am no longer there every day and in charge. Being cautious, as has already been suggested, is probably very good advice for you.

 

[Dreamer_D]

If you are interested in this diamond then have is appraised by a truly independent appraiser whom you select before the sale is final. If this chekcs out then you may have found a good diamond for you!

 

[vardamann]

I have a physical report from AGA with an appraisal number. The report contains the diamond ratings, stone topography and appraisal valued. AGA told me the appraisal report contains all of the information included in a certification plus an appraised value.

 

[vardamann]

I appreciate everyone''s suggestions. I ended up deciding between two stones with very similar specs: the aforementioned EGL stone (1.5 round, excellent cut, F, VS2) and a GIA stone (1.5 round, very good cut, E, SI1). I actually thought the EGL stone was slightly more brilliant than the GIA stone but remained nervous about the EGL certification. I decided to get a third party appraisal from David Atlas (aka Old Miner) who now operates a lab in a Philadelphia suburb.

I must commend David for being very cordial and professional throughout the entire process. First of all, he insisted that I pay for the cost of the appraisals (which the jeweler agreed to reimburse me). Second of all, after I explained to him that I don''t have a car, David offered to pick up the stones from the jeweler because he was running some errands in the city. After reviewing the stones, he sent me detailed appraisals including SARIN cut grade and light performance analyses. For the most part, David agreed with both stone certifications and told me to pick the stone I liked the most. I ended up selecting the EGL stone because it graded slightly higher and is 25% cheaper than the GIA stone.

David, thank you for all of your help! Working with you definitely provided me with more peace of mind.

Best
Vardamann

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 3/26/2010 6:16:30 PM
Author: vardamann
I appreciate everyone''s suggestions. I ended up deciding between two stones with very similar specs: the aforementioned EGL stone (1.5 round, excellent cut, F, VS2) and a GIA stone (1.5 round, very good cut, E, SI1). I actually thought the EGL stone was slightly more brilliant than the GIA stone but remained nervous about the EGL certification. I decided to get a third party appraisal from David Atlas (aka Old Miner) who now operates a lab in a Philadelphia suburb.

I must commend David for being very cordial and professional throughout the entire process. First of all, he insisted that I pay for the cost of the appraisals (which the jeweler agreed to reimburse me). Second of all, after I explained to him that I don''t have a car, David offered to pick up the stones from the jeweler because he was running some errands in the city. After reviewing the stones, he sent me detailed appraisals including SARIN cut grade and light performance analyses. For the most part, David agreed with both stone certifications and told me to pick the stone I liked the most. I ended up selecting the EGL stone because it graded slightly higher and is 25% cheaper than the GIA stone.

David, thank you for all of your help! Working with you definitely provided me with more peace of mind.

Best
Vardamann

I am glad it worked out for you! Out of curiosity, what was his color and clarity grade of the EGL diamond?

I am glad you choce the better cut stone by the way

I would recommend and EGL stone that was better cut over GIA any day, cert issues or no cert issues.

 

[vardamann]

David Atlas graded the EGL stone as an excellent cut F VS2, which was the same grading as EGL and AGA. My primary concern was getting a reputable third-party to verify that the stone was in-line with the previous gradings.

 

[sarah95]

Thanks for updating this thread with your decision and results of Dave Atlas''s appraisal. I too used AGA for an appraisal -had a diamond sent to them from USA Certed Diamonds. It''s so hard to trust people in the diamond industry, but AGA was very professional and helpful in my situation. Would you mind sharing the name of the retailer where you purchased your stone?