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Stone Margin and Pricing Question

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Dan W

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 14, 2017
Messages
6
Hi Everyone,

Popping the question soon, picked out the setting she likes, picked out a stone - now just need to negotiate the price. The jeweler has been helpful and I want to see him make money, but i do not want to be taken advantage of. What is the typical mark up on the stone portion of the ring? The GIA number of the stone is below, any best guess on what the jeweler is paying for this stone?

GIA # 1182277158

Thanks in advance for your help. A friend who got engaged recently raved about the help he received on this forum.

- Dan
 
Congrats on taking this step!

Has your intended seen this diamond, and let you know that she likes it? Have both of you had an opportunity to examine this diamond in an environment away from the jewelry store showroom lights (e.g., in daylight, or in office lighting)? If yes to both questions, then great, but if not, then you will probably want to reconsider this diamond...

FYI, this forum is the home to diamond enthusiasts who value cut quality and light performance (i.e., the ability of a diamond to sparkle) above all else. The diamond you have selected is not one that would be recommended by those who post here. However, if you have priorities other than getting a well-cut, sparkly diamond (i.e., if your main criterion is to hit 4 carats within your budget, no matter what the diamond actually looks like), then this diamond may be ok for you, and you will probably get a pretty cheap price because of the poor light performance and other issues.
 
Dan W said:
Hi Everyone,
GIA # 1182277158
Click to expand...
This is a good case study for learning about information that influences value behind industry doors.

ps-1182277158-4.05LSI2.jpg

While this diamond weighs 4.05 carats it was forced to reach that 4-carat value-benchmark with very deep cutting angles. In fact, at 10.08 mm, it will have the size-appearance of well-cut diamonds weighing around 3.70 carats. And that's only in the brightest lighting conditions, because the chosen angles allow so much light to pass through that, in normal and especially low lighting, it will go dark at the edges and look smaller. This means that in a low-lighted bar or restaurant, the wearer could extend her hand to show off a 4.05 carat diamond, but it may look smaller than someone else's 2.50-3.00 carat diamond which was cut with proper vertical mm spread and angles which promote light return.

I know it sounds crazy, because the cut grade is "Good." Consider this context: At present, nearly 70% of GIA graded diamonds for sale on the industry's largest B2B platform have the "Excellent" cut grade. You must descend to the bottom 10% to find Good, Fair and Poor. Why? Because the system is rather permissive. This helps diamond traders stay in business, but most consumers are unaware of the leniency in the system.

Here's an ASET simulation for the set of measurements provided. For the record, this is a candidate for AGS 10 in performance on their scale of 0 (best) to 10 (worst).

ps-1182277158-dc-aset.jpg

Other value-affecting factors:

L color also stipulates "Faint brown." This could indicate a leaning toward brown instead of yellow as the base. However, as historic mining areas deplete, more gem-quality rough have areas of microscopic brown or green tint. This can run from a harmless situation, seen only under magnification, to one so pervasive that transparency is affected. If benign it's no big deal in a color like L, but it's worth a question about the presence and/or severity of "brown," because that impacts value behind industry doors.

The SI2 clarity could be eye-clean, but it's impossible to know. If it's not eye-clean that's another value-affecting factor. There are two indented naturals could impact re-cut/repair in the case of damage. It's likely the diamond would need to be reduced in girdle diameter significantly. That's not always a consideration in trade valuation, but worth noting.

Strong Blue Fluorescence. We're hitting on all cylinders here. The trade discounts diamonds with SBF pretty heavily, so that influences value. Additionally, there are some SI2 features "not shown" within the diamond. In some cases, when fluorescence is excited by UV light (sunlight has this) such features within - usually clouds which are dense clusters of pinpoints - can become illuminated and create a hazy appearance. This is easy to check.

So, as it relates to value and what the diamond would trade for, professional to professional: I'd expect a price near the going rate for 10mm, rather than 4 carats, with a discounts for cut-quality reduction, brown and SBF.

Speaking as a principal for a company that cuts diamonds I have two summary thoughts: (1) The producing factory absolutely worked magic to get this bad boy to 4 carats. (2) Hiding inside this 4 carat L color I can imagine a sparkling, scintillating 3.50 carat swan ...well, pending confirmation about the brown and SBF. :cool:

Thanks in advance for your help. A friend who got engaged recently raved about the help he received on this forum. - Dan
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That's very cool. Welcome to Pricescope! Apologies if the information isn't what you expected. But with that said, I must underscore what drk14 already noted...

drk14 said:
FYI, this forum is the home to diamond enthusiasts who value cut quality and light performance (i.e., the ability of a diamond to sparkle) above all else. The diamond you have selected is not one that would be recommended by those who post here. However, if you have priorities other than getting a well-cut, sparkly diamond (i.e., if your main criterion is to hit 4 carats within your budget, no matter what the diamond actually looks like), then this diamond may be ok for you, and you will probably get a pretty cheap price because of the poor light performance and other issues.
Click to expand...
This is absolutely true. There is a home for every diamond out there.
 
I will reiterate what others have said here. I think most people here would consider this to be a poorer quality stone. For all of the above reasons.

HOWEVER, if you have seen the stone and love it, then by all means go for it. People probably end up with stones like this all the time, I have no doubt jewelers pop out stones like this and show how big and cheap it is, and it sparkles under their lights. What I would do to look at fair pricing, would be to compare it to other stones available online. Go to blue nile or other sites with a large database of diamonds, enter the stats, and see what pops up price wise. Bear in mind, online tends to be much better pricing than B&M stores...but it does not mean you have to feel obligated to pay more to B&M. The B&M stores are not paying more for the diamonds than the online stores.

If you post the price here, you can get feedback about the price.

But note, most of the feedback here will probably be warning you about the stone, since it is a poorer quality stone. None of us have seen it though, if you love it, go for it! Just know diamond enthusiasts will point out several issues and probably advise getting a smaller stone with better cut than a larger stone with poor cut.
 
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lolov said:
...
HOWEVER, if you have seen the stone and love it, then by all means go for it. People probably end up with stones like this all the time, I have no doubt jewelers pop out stones like this and show how big and cheap it is, and it sparkles under their lights.
...
Bear in mind, online tends to be much better pricing than B&M stores...but it does not mean you have to feel obligated to pay more to B&M. The B&M stores are not paying more for the diamonds than the online stores.
...
But note, most of the feedback here will probably be warning you about the stone, since it is a poorer quality stone. None of us have seen it though, if you love it, go for it! Just know diamond enthusiasts will point out several issues and probably advise getting a smaller stone with better cut than a larger stone with poor cut.
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I disagree with this advice.


People without education in diamonds and what they should look like / perform like buy crap stones all the time, so it's ok to be one of them?

Bricks and mortar stores shouldn't charge more for stones than online vendors because they apparently have zero overheads associated with a physical store?

Because the members of a forum haven't seen a stone, they can't possibly make a judgement of it, even if all the science evident in the posts above is readily available and can be understood by anyone who takes the time to study it?

Recommending a person buys something because they 'love it', even having done no research or comparisons with stones that are cut properly and with complete disregard for the fact that it is likely overpriced, both in terms of for what it is and what else you could get for that budget?


Hmm.
 
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Have you seen the stone in person? It's basically a brown tinted and could potentially be milky (will look like it's straining to sparkle in certain lighting situations like out in sunlight) from the fluorescence and a very ordinary cut. Cut is the thing that gives a diamond the fire and sparkle. Something with a outstanding cut will have better edge to edge brightness and therefore appear on the hand visually as a larger stone than something that is a smucky cut. And on top of all that the stone is possibly not eye clean.

When something is priced at a bargain price like this would be for a 4 carat diamond, then it's usually for a reason. And it is truly a case of bigger is not always better when you could probably buy a smaller 3.00 to 3.50 carat much brighter cleaner more sparkly diamond for the money.
 
OoohShiny said:
I disagree with this advice.


People without education in diamonds and what they should look like / perform like buy crap stones all the time, so it's ok to be one of them?

Bricks and mortar stores shouldn't charge more for stones than online vendors because they apparently have zero overheads associated with a physical store?

Because the members of a forum haven't seen a stone, they can't possibly make a judgement of it, even if all the science evident in the posts above is readily available and can be understood by anyone who takes the time to study it?

Recommending a person buys something because they 'love it', even having done no research or comparisons with stones that are cut properly and with complete disregard for the fact that it is likely overpriced, both in terms of for what it is and what else you could get for that budget?


Hmm.
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Yes, sometimes you should buy things because you love them. You are making many poor assumptions. Please re-read my entire post. Not everybody is coming here to have others who may have different budgets and preferences telling them why they shouldnt love the stone they found and love.

From the OP "Popping the question soon, picked out the setting she likes, picked out a stone - now just need to negotiate the price."

He clearly said he picked out a stone. His post did not ask for people to insult his selection. So in a tasteful way some of us chose to let him know the concerns, but support him in whatever decision he makes that is right for him. Just because the decision may not be right for you does not give you the right to pass judgement on others.
 
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lolov said:
Yes, sometimes you should buy things because you love them. You are making many poor assumptions. Please re-read my entire post. Not everybody is coming here to have others who may have different budgets and preferences telling them why they shouldnt love the stone they found and love.

From the OP "Popping the question soon, picked out the setting she likes, picked out a stone - now just need to negotiate the price."

He clearly said he picked out a stone. His post did not ask for people to insult his selection. So in a tasteful way some of us chose to let him know the concerns, but support him in whatever decision he makes that is right for him. Just because the decision may not be right for you does not give you the right to pass judgement on others.
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But the point is that one cannot know if what one is feeling is love or lust (or just settling for 'good enough') without first having the experience of considering other options to enable comparisons to take place.

There are very, very few people who would go on a first date with the first person they've ever asked out and then ask that person to marry them there and then, or on the second date or third date. How would one know if someone more suited to them is out there without first meeting some of the large and varied population in the world? It's not like one even has to stay local and marry that plain-but-not-unattractive person from the next street - the internet means you can talk to people across the world and find other potential suitors that might be better suited.

Diamond shopping is no different. If you just visit the local store, see what they've got and buy the one you like most, you are ruling out literally the entire rest of the (diamonds in the) world and have no comparisons to compare the stone to. By using the internet, you can check out basically the entire stock of diamonds in the world - which means you can find and experience a range of options and find exactly what you really love.

Not only that, if the only and best advice people had on here was 'buy it if you love it!!1!', there would be no point to the forum - people might as well just not bother posting as, you know, as long as they love it, why bother considering anything else...
 
One of the most positive aspects of this forum is diversity. Here we have several different posters responding to different elements of the OP's post. All of us want to help.

lolov responded to "picked out the stone, now just need to negotiate price" - which makes complete sense if the OP's eyes and heart like this stone. No argument, as long as the OP is fully informed.

OoohShiny and arkieb1 expressed their educated concerns with the value proposition of the diamond, which is unarguably suspect.

I was responding to the subject line and OP query for "best guess what the jeweler is paying for the stone?"

For the record: I have access this diamond's b2b listing and know what the jeweler is being asked to pay the supplier. Disclosing this outright would be a jerk move as a professional, and would violate my TOS with the listing company anyway. Therefore I provided as much relevant information as I could, above, which is intended to satisfy the OP's request.

These replies can all work together. If the OP loves this diamond then the negotiation may best go forward. But negotiating price will require feedback on that initial question: "Best guess what the jeweler is paying?"

In this situation with so many discounts given behind industry doors; my analysis and feedback are intended to help with a negotiation, should the OP pursue that course.
 
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lolov said:
Yes, sometimes you should buy things because you love them. You are making many poor assumptions. Please re-read my entire post. Not everybody is coming here to have others who may have different budgets and preferences telling them why they shouldnt love the stone they found and love.

From the OP "Popping the question soon, picked out the setting she likes, picked out a stone - now just need to negotiate the price."

He clearly said he picked out a stone. His post did not ask for people to insult his selection. So in a tasteful way some of us chose to let him know the concerns, but support him in whatever decision he makes that is right for him. Just because the decision may not be right for you does not give you the right to pass judgement on others.
Click to expand...

Well if the person is 100% happy with the stone why come to a forum and ask advise, price included? We can't accurately state the retail value of this stone without knowing if it's eye clean, if it's impacted fluorescence, or by the internal graining (which very few diamonds are but it still could be) and by the fact it's an L and clearly states on the certificate it's tinted brown, without photos or seeing it in person I don't know how unpleasant that tint is.

I fully understand some people just want a large diamond for the money - best bang for the buck so to speak, they don't care jack about the colour and the cut, but buying something that basically even without seeing it I can tell is a smucky cut, possibly not eye clean and a big tinted brown hot mess I make no apologies for telling like it is..... it's not my cup of tea irrespective of how cheap it may or may not be and if it's not cheap and the OP hasn't paid for it yet perhaps we can find something that is a much better stone for his hard earned dollars.
 
The jeweler has been helpful and I want to see him make money, but i do not want to be taken advantage of.
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This jeweler does not deserve any money from you. He is deceitful, not helpful.

The "You see it, love it, go for it" advice is valid for a reasonably quality product. This stone is not. It is cut with poor craftmanship.

Estimating a fair price is hard for a stone like this. If I had a stone like this, it would be recut for sure. So my offer to the vendor would be the price of 3.7c L SI2 minus recut cost, shipping costb grading fee plus other cost.
 
I'm aware that @Dan W probably feels like he's walked into a room and triggered an argument, so I think we should ask the usual questions to Dan:

What is the budget?
What are your colour/clarity/carat expectations and desires?
What are your partner's colour/clarity/carat expections?!
(What are the 'social norms' in your social circle?)
Can you post a link to the setting?

:)
 
I've been following this thread with great interest, even more so after @John Pollard chimed in with his comments.

@Dan W, I would take heed of what John has mentioned about this stone. I put in the parameters within the HCA and it came back with a score of 5+ assuming that it had very good or higher grades for polish, symmetry, etc. Given that it is only a good cut, it would be even lower than a 5.

I hope that the jeweller has the ability to source other stones for you because this stone truly is a dog of a stone just based off the specs (not even basing an opinion off a visual).
 
Based upon the responses to this thread it seems like I have come to the right place. I appreciate that you are all very passionate about diamonds - I know nothing about them, never intend to become an expert, and am just looking for someone trustworthy to provide honest advice so I can do right by my finance without getting screwed in the process. Is that too much to ask from a jeweler? lol

Buying the stone next week. Budget for the stone is $20-$25k. The finance and I would like no defects to the untrained naked eye but we do not value one rating over another unless it will be noticeable in everyday routine life. For instance going into this I was expecting large differences between colors, but even side by side under light I could not tell the difference. No stated carrot requirement but would like to be in the 3+ range.

Here are the list of stones the jeweler has shown me for consideration

6205807028 – 3.53 – saw this one, thought it looked good – asking price $23 k
2185197058 – 3.69 but shallow cut for larger top – saw this one, when I studied side by side from the one above it was a hair bigger and seemed to spark just a bit less – Asking price $29 k
3255796185 – 3.57 – asking price $25k
1182277158 – the 4.05 in original post – asking price $25k

Thoughts on these stones, their quality, and price. ie. Am I doing right by my fiancé and not being screwed?

Thanks everyone.
 
I'll look at the newly listed stones in a minute.

But did you take that first L stone out into natural lighting or regular indoor lighting or were you viewing it in jewelers lighting? Because in jewelers lighting, you can't see color differences, but in natural light or in incandescent or fluorescent lighting, I can guarantee you that anyone with normal vision can see the difference between an I color, for example, and a L color with brown undertone. We are concerned because the stone is not well cut which has the greatest affect on the diamond's beauty, and then L with brown is a dingy looking stone. The clarity is questionable in a stone that large, too. I don't think most people seeing the stone would have a positive reaction (at least in their minds). Big is fairly meaningless if the stone isn't pretty.

I am going to also express concern about the diamond vendor who is selling you this stone and not warning you of the problems with it. Just out of curiosity, does this vendor allow returns? Do you have a 10 day or greater return policy for any reason? Because reputable jewelers will offer that or more.

I would really encourage you to let us help you find some really nice stones within your budget. I think almost anyone here would tell you they'd rather have a well cut 2.5 ct J color diamond over a 4 ct (facing up smaller) poorly cut, brown L SI2. That would be a stone that people would say, "Wow, that's a gorgeous diamond!"
 
Unfortunately, GIS report check is down until midnight eastern time tonight.

I'll just ask, are any of these stones Excellent cut? Because as John explained above, the majority of GIA stones are graded Excellent, and some actually are excellent and some what we'd consider good but not desirable. I wouldn't consider anything under excellent for that reason.

If none are excellent cut, then I think most of us will recommend starting over. We can show you the best stones your money can buy within your budget. And I'd recommend J color and SI1 at least.
 
Attached are the GSA reports for the 3 new stones in my last post if it is helpful. Clarity is not the best but these are the only copies of i have.

Have not viewed the stones in sunlight, but will now.

6205807028 - 353.jpeg

2185197058 - 369.jpeg

3255796185 - 357.jpeg
 
Can you post a photo of the stone?
 
Below are photos of the 6205807028 – 3.53 and 2185197058 – 3.69. Do not have photos of the other two.

IMG_20170614_155414661.jpg

IMG_20170614_160254678.jpg

IMG_20170614_155254808.jpg
 
Off hand, the first report you posted is going to be better than the original stone. It scores very good for light return, fire, scintillation, and spread. We normally recommend Excellent for the first three of those, but very good is better than your original stone. Of course, we don't know if this stone is eyeclean. But at least it doesn't say brown.

The second one needs to be eliminated. Flat top, large table, little crown. I am sorry because at least that one has good clarity.

Third one probably will have performance issues due to poor clarity. (additional clouds, twining wisps, and surface graining not shown on the clarity plot). It's too deep, crown angle too high, etc.

As far as viewing in natural light, I mean outdoor light but not in the sun.
 
The smaller one is the better cut of those two. It's a 60/60 stone. I would be concerned about the clouds as they are listed as the first inclusion and also the cert lists additional clouds not shown. You can do much better.
 
In the stone pictures you just posted, that top picture shows the 3.69 with the flat top on the left. Don't you see how unattractive that stone is with a flat top?
 
Dan W said:
Here are the list of stones the jeweler has shown me for consideration

6205807028 – 3.53 – saw this one, thought it looked good – asking price $23 k
2185197058 – 3.69 but shallow cut for larger top – saw this one, when I studied side by side from the one above it was a hair bigger and seemed to spark just a bit less – Asking price $29 k
3255796185 – 3.57 – asking price $25k
1182277158 – the 4.05 in original post – asking price $25k

Thoughts on these stones, their quality, and price. ie. Am I doing right by my fiancé and not being screwed?

Thanks everyone.
Click to expand...

Will check those new stones you've given the report numbers for once GIA report check is back up and running again.

In the meantime, I've taken the liberty of searching inventory at James Allen and Blue Nile and there are very few stones with good proportions that look decent at that price range that are over the 3.5ct range (at least by my searching through the inventory). There are well cut makes around the $26k mark but which are at around the 3-3.49ct mark.

It's 12:30am now here in Australia on Sunday morning so I'm going to get some kip and will look again later today.
 
Example of a beautiful stone close to your max budget. It's K color and you can see in these very accurate color videos that K is light yellow but faces up pretty white when the stone is very well cut.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...k-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2813016

This stone would be visibly more beautiful than any of the ones you have listed.

And here's a nice 3.5!
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...k-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2371357

If you want size and a nice quality diamond, that last one is about as good as it gets.
 
diamondseeker2006 said:
Example of a beautiful stone close to your max budget. It's K color and you can see in these very accurate color videos that K is light yellow but faces up pretty white when the stone is very well cut.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...k-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2813016

This stone would be visibly more beautiful than any of the ones you have listed.

And here's a nice 3.5!
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...k-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2371357

If you want size and a nice quality diamond, that last one is about as good as it gets.
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Nice finds :)

I can just see the twinning wisps on the 20x zoom setting on the second one but it's very clean-looking! That first one is good as well, nice and clean on/under the table :)
 
Dan W said:
Below are photos of the 6205807028 – 3.53 and 2185197058 – 3.69. Do not have photos of the other two.

IMG_20170614_155414661.jpg

IMG_20170614_160254678.jpg

IMG_20170614_155254808.jpg
Click to expand...
I think these photo show how badly cut 2185197058 – 3.69. is.
Yes, it has a big spread. But look how flat it is. The most of carat weight is below the girdle.
It is like buying a huge basement suite.....
 
I just want to chime in and say that I agree with everything said so far by fellow PSers. The jeweler is offering you poor cut quality stones, such that are absolutely NOT worth the $23-30k price tag!!

DS 3.5 K SI1 find is amazing!! Please get that instead! If a simple pavè setting like the ones pictured is what you are considering, there are plenty of those online. Based on the picture, I am actually not even a fan of the bulky prong work and the bulky head. Here are some similar and arguably better options on JAs website:
https://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/e...e-gold-petite-pave-engagement-ring-item-56273
https://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/e...t-pave-wire-basket-engagement-ring-item-53157
 
I'm not going to weigh in on the different stones except to say any of the linked ones are better than what that jeweller is offering you especially that K 3.5 DS found.
I would like to comment on the jeweller and what they've demonstrated to you - you've got a sizeable amount to spend and instead of respecting that and showing you stones which would make spending that amount of money worth your while, they've shown you poorly cut, quite included stones. I would not be comfortable continuing to work with someone who has demonstrated their willingness to palm their duds off onto you. Unless they don't know any better, in which case they shouldn't be selling such expensive things!
You want to do right by your fiancée, please stop working with this ripoff merchant and go with one of the PS-recommended vendors who won't happily try and sell you a bad diamond. The setting you've shown the stones in looks quite easy to reproduce and also not a great example of the standard Tiffany head with pave shank itself. You can do so much better with James Allen or Whiteflash or CBI or Brian Gavin, all of whom will sell you something spectacular that will make your fiancée beam with delight whenever she looks at it.
 
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