Spread, Cut, and Carat

[Mashira]

Mmmkay, so my last post on here was about color, and I got wonderful answers. I've more or less decided that my color range will be
H-I. For those that don't know, I'm looking for a princess cut diamond. Now... here is where it gets tricky...

I have been looking a lot at carat weight, spread, and cut. The 'top view' is probably one of the most important things to me about
the overall look of the diamond, coming in just after cut. I did a little experiment and drew on a blank sheet of paper the size I
would like my diamond show from the top view. This came in at 6.8mm x 6.8mm Now the question is... how does this relate to carat weight,
considering different spreads? I have seen 1.6 carat princesses that have a spread of 6.5mm and I've also seen 1.9 carat princesses with
a spread of 6.5mm. This tells me that the depth, somehow, though not directly, effects the spread. My other concern would be how does
the spread effect the cut? I'm so lost on this topic... Lastly, to make it even more complicated... the diamond I am looking for needs
a l/w ratio of 1.00 to 1.02 because the setting puts it in an angle (sideways, see link below).

http://www.simongjewelry.com/details.php?products_id=2010&categories_id=23&

I'm losing my mind over here. I can't wrap my mind around these concepts. All I really know is that I want a 6.8mm spread in a 1.00 - 1.002
ratio with a beautiful cut so I guess the question is what carat range does that put me in? And with a budget of $8,500 is this reasonable?
(Other specs being H-I color, VS1-VS2 or possibly an eye clean SI1) Note: 'eye clean' to me means that I personally cannot see an inclusion
at 7-9 inches away.

*sighs and develops a throbbing headache*

Any help/advice/information would be very much appreciated!

 

[kenny]

To me good cut is the first priority.
Only AGS grades the cut of princess diamonds and AGS0 is their top grade.

So, let's find an AGS0 with is 6.8mm across.

 

[kenny]

Looking on Whiteflash, HPD and GOG I found 6.8mm AGS0 princesses are around 1.8 - 2 ct.

I'm afraid an AGS0, 6.8mm H/I VS1/SI1 will bust that $8,500 budget.

Either you must do one or more of the following . . .
Increase the budget
Go down in weight
Go down in clarity
Go down in color
Enter the stressful learning-intensive quagmire of finding that needle-in-the-haystack well-cut princess that did not get sent to AGS for the coveted AGS0 grade, or just compromise on cut.

 

[Mashira]

I''ve been trying to sort through GIA diamonds, but I''m finding it increasingly harder to do.
I apprecate the help very much, but I do have a question. Is there any way for me to search
through these sites with the mm size as opposed to the carat weight?

Also, I looked on Whiteflash, HPD and BlueNile and yes, the specs and attached carat weight
are definitely budget busters. [Except for some of the GIA''s but the cut is questionable there.]
I honestly think I''m at the lowest I''m willing to go on clarity.
I need to go in and look at a range of colors, to decide where I stand on that. Unfortunately,
it''s looking like that ''perfect'' 6.8mm is going to have to go

 

[kenny]

Is there any way for me to search through these sites with the mm size as opposed to the carat weight?

I doubt it.
Unfortunately PS's Search By Cut feature above under PRICES seems to be not working now, but that would have made it easier as it lists all the finds in a long list which includes width.

Unfortunately, it's looking like that 'perfect' 6.8mm is going to have to go

Take heart, it happens to all of us unless you are Oprah or Bill Gates.
But keep in mind that a well cut diamond will look larger since it returns so much light compared to poor cut.
Please do not compromise on cut.

GIA does not rate the cut quality of princess diamonds.
The polish and symmetry grades are NOT a grade of how well the diamond is cut; they are grades of other things.
Good cut is about the angles and proportions that result in good light return, patterning, fire, contrast, scintillation etc.

Personally I'd stick with AGS0 and compromise on everything else.
AGS simplified a very complicated evaluation process so I'd take advantage of that with a princess.
Cut is king when it comes to what affects the beauty of a diamond and AGS has made it easy to pick a well-cut princess.


It may be possible to find a well cut princess with GIA paper but you need to post ASET pics and all the specs here to get feedback from our Princess experts.

Edit: Oh, and carefully read the upgrade policies of the vendors you are considering.
You sound like you may join the upgrade crowd here some day.

 

[Mashira]

I'm actually a bit sentimental about the ring, so I doubt it will be changing

but
then again, you never know.

I'm looking at the vendors I was going through... and I have hit another problem.
Where on earth do I find AGS0 princess cuts? Everywhere I look is GIA, even Whiteflash.

 

[kenny]

At Whiteflash select the button for ACA Princess.
I believe they all have AGS reports and all earned the coveted AGS0 top cut grade.

At GOG you have to open each listing to see who graded it.

BTW, check out the Solasfera Princess cuts at GOG - Here is a video of it: Link
I've never seen one, but we have a Solasfera round that blows your head off with light.

Too bad PS Search feature isn't working because you can pick the grading lab one of the search criteria.

 

[slg47]

ditto kenny, looks like 6.8 mm is not in your budget. focus on getting a top cut stone, and then see what the measurements are.

OR, if you want a round diamond, you can get the 6.8 mm (about 1.2 carat) because rounds are not cut as deeply as princess cuts.

 

[Mashira]

I know the princess cut tends to take a lot of weight for not as much spread. I can
appreciate the beauty of a RB, but it's just not the shape for me. I've been doing some
browsing and I've found these three.

The first one actually gives me a 6.2mm spread! [I can DEFINITELY live with that] I don't quite understand
the AGS grading that is provided so the question is... what do you guys think
about them?

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6491/#script

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/7125/

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/princess-cut-loose-diamond-2262604.htm?gb=1

Edit: This is also one I was looking at, but it doesn't have as much detail as the other vendors. I have sent
BlueNile an e-mail requesting the ASET, and Sarin but don't know if they will provide it/have it.

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-search?filter_id=0&track=head#diamonds_pid=LD01764195

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I would love to know how you can reject or select a diamond based only on a GIA report?

 

[tyty333]

Date: 6/30/2010 6:05:21 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
I would love to know how you can reject or select a diamond based only on a GIA report?

Gary's right (as usual)...you have to have images for a fancy cut. Papers just wont do it

.


Here is a square princess in your budget that looks pretty nice (1.71)
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS2-Premium-Cut-Princess-Diamond-1254742.asp
Some others worth taking a look at
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI1-Premium-Cut-Princess-Diamond-1255286.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS1-Ideal-Cut-Princess-Diamond-1167189.asp - square enough? Not to sure about the cut on this
one.
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-VS1-Premium-Cut-Princess-Diamond-1253107.asp - pretty
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-SI2-Premium-Cut-Princess-Diamond-1280680.asp - may be smaller then you want but pretty

Any SIs would need to be checked to see if eye-clean.

 

[kenny]

Mashira, this is what I was referring to; it's working now.

In the menu bar at the top of this screen click on the word, PRICES.
Then select Search by Cut.
Enter your preferences and for "Lab" deselect GIA and other.

All the princesses found will have AGS reports.
I assume they are all AGS0 but you should verify that.

From this screen you can click on the blue prices and it will take you to the vendor's listing for that stone.

IMHO this is the fastest and easiest way to find well-cut princess diamonds.
Plus you can quickly compare widths of several AGS0s on one screen.
You can also look for the shaowest one, which may be the widest one for the carat weight and the money.
Cool, huh?

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI Mashira,
Congrats!

Personally I would not limit myself to AGS graded stones- they are much less common.
Have you looked at stones GIA graded J color? That might allow your budget and size constraints to co-exist.

 

[Mashira]

Date: 6/30/2010 10:23:02 AM

Gary''s right (as usual)...you have to have images for a fancy cut. Papers just wont do it

.

Any SIs would need to be checked to see if eye-clean.

When you say ''papers just won''t do'' are you also including the GOG princess cuts in this statement?
I''m new to diamond buying and don''t profess to know nearly as much as any of you, but I was under the
impression that diamond buying online is ''okay'' and GOG was a good vendor to do it from because
of the ASET/Sarin papers and BrilliantScope images.

Kenny, thank you for that, I will definitely check it out!
RockDiamond, I believe I will be looking at GIA''s as well but I will need to do that
in person as opposed to buying online.

 

[yssie]

Date: 6/30/2010 3:56:18 PM
Author: Mashira


When you say 'papers just won't do' are you also including the GOG princess cuts in this statement?
I'm new to diamond buying and don't profess to know nearly as much as any of you, but I was under the
impression that diamond buying online is 'okay' and GOG was a good vendor to do it from because
of the ASET/Sarin papers and BrilliantScope images.

Kenny, thank you for that, I will definitely check it out!
RockDiamond, I believe I will be looking at GIA's as well but I will need to do that
in person as opposed to buying online.

You have three options if you want a well-cut princess:

1. Buy from one of the vendors specializing in well-cut princesses - wf's aca (or es if you find one with nice aset), hpd's crafted by infinity, gog
(all these stones will come w/ aset images, and even better you can have your rep eyeball your actual stone and get his/her professional opinion)
2. Search the many vendors and diamond brokers for AGS0 princesses.
3. Have your rep find sift through virtual princess inventory and find one they think looks promising, have it brought in, have images taken and have it inspected, and pronounce a verdict - this can get expensive depending on how many stones you wind up having brought in

 

[Rockdiamond]

Mashira,
Personally I'd put everything being discussed here in the same category- that being "taste based parameters". The mere fact that a diamond has an AGS report calling it 0 cut grade does not mean you will love it more than another diamond graded by GIA.
I find actual photos and videos far more informative than ASET/BS/IS etc.

None of this means you can't buy online, but I do suggest looking at some actual diamonds to see what you do prefer. The "Ideal" princess cuts with AGS grading tend to have smaller tables ( the largest facet on top of the diamond)
This is a look loved by some- but not all.

Same thing with J color.
Some people are very color sensitive, and can't stand to see any warmth in the color- while others love the warmer tone a J color gives- some love it better than a D.
If you're in that group, you'll get a much larger diamond for your money.

 

[tyty333]

Date: 6/30/2010 3:56:18 PM
Author: Mashira

Date: 6/30/2010 10:23:02 AM

Gary''s right (as usual)...you have to have images for a fancy cut. Papers just wont do it

.

Any SIs would need to be checked to see if eye-clean.

When you say ''papers just won''t do'' are you also including the GOG princess cuts in this statement?
I''m new to diamond buying and don''t profess to know nearly as much as any of you, but I was under the
impression that diamond buying online is ''okay'' and GOG was a good vendor to do it from because
of the ASET/Sarin papers and BrilliantScope images.

Kenny, thank you for that, I will definitely check it out!
RockDiamond, I believe I will be looking at GIA''s as well but I will need to do that
in person as opposed to buying online.

No, what I meant to be saying was you need to have pictures of the stones. A certification without pictures
will not tell you enough about a fancy cut to know whether you will like the look of it or not. GOG is good (very good)...
they have pictures, aset/ideal scope images , video and pretty much anything you would need. Places like Bllue Nile do not
have pictures/aset/ideal scope images so you dont really know what you are getting with a fancy cut.

I hope that clears it up.

 

[Mashira]

Gotcha, thanks! I''ll be looking on WF and GOG for diamonds that meet my criteria.
A question: some of WF GIA diamonds do not have ASET/IS images but are listed as
''very good'' in cut. How does one determine this with a GIA paper that doesn''t
grade the cut? Where might they be getting this information? Is it merely an
opinion?

 

[kenny]

Princess cuts have several rows of pavilion facets.
That's why they are too mathematically complex for a tool like HCA, which only works for rounds with simpler pavilions.

I would only consider AGS0 Princess cuts.
AGS has done the work for you.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 6/30/2010 8:12:12 PM
Author: kenny
Princess cuts have several rows of pavilion facets.

That''s why they are too mathematically complex for a tool like HCA, which only works for rounds with simpler pavilions.


I would only consider AGS0 Princess cuts.

AGS has done the work for you.

This is for emerald cuts, but similar rules apply

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 6/30/2010 8:12:12 PM
Author: kenny

I would only consider AGS0 Princess cuts.

AGS has done the work for you.

I would overrule that because many princess cuts can not pass the Ideal sym and polish (stoopid) AGS 0 standard.
So look at AGS stones dinged for that as well as GIA and other graded stones.
Even EGL stones which you can sometimes find a stone that is only 1 grade color and clarity lower then the paper says.
Then you can use the paper to light a campfire.

 

[kenny]

But you have to spend zillions of hours learning tons and tons if you venture away from AGS0.

AGS0 offers some threshold of safety - the only safe bet for newbies.

Sure, if you are Garry Hollaway or John Pollard you don't need AGS0 because you've spent years developing your knowledge.

Garry, are you going to hold her hand and find her a well-cut non AGS stone?... I didn't think so.
And if you are, will you also take the time to do this for every princess shopper in the future like KarlK used to be able to do so in the past.

Make no mistake, locating a well cut non-round diamond requires tons of learning or psychic powers.
I think AGS0 is a valid way for a newbie to pick a princess.

 

[Mashira]

Right now I''m looking at ASG0 stones, but I have not set them as the end-all and be-all of
princess cut diamonds in my mind. While I would love to get an AGS0 stone and be sure of it''s cut, the
supply simply is not enough to meet my demands, and the price because of this is not within
my budget.

I am willing to put in hundreds of hours of study and sift through thousands of diamonds.
I know that sounds a bit grand, but the fact of the matter is that it is true, that is why we
are looking so early (still around six months until the diamond is actually needed) So what
I am doing here is trying to get myself as educated as possible so that when I do find a stone
I know what I should be looking for, and will not need anyone to ''hold my hand'', though I''m
sure I will need plenty of advice (but that is what this forum is about).

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 6/30/2010 9:50:36 PM
Author: kenny
But you have to spend zillions of hours learning tons and tons if you venture away from AGS0.


AGS0 offers some threshold of safety - the only safe bet for newbies.


Sure, if you are Garry Hollaway or John Pollard you don''t need AGS0 because you''ve spent years developing your knowledge.


Garry, are you going to hold her hand and find her a well-cut non AGS stone?... I didn''t think so.

And if you are, will you also take the time to do this for every princess shopper in the future like KarlK used to be able to do so in the past.


Make no mistake, locating a well cut non-round diamond requires tons of learning or psychic powers.

I think AGS0 is a valid way for a newbie to pick a princess.

Garry is only saying to consider AGS1 stones dinged for finish, with is not detectable to the naked eyes, so what is wrong with that?