Splitting Hairs????

[crillman]

Hi All!

Fairly new to all of this but thanks to all of you I have learned a TON! HOWEVER, have plenty more to learn I'm sure infact I hear contradictory things all the time and want your opinions.

I believe I'm correct in saying that the proportions/cut play the largest role in creating a brilliantly sparkly diamond. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Long story short, I was at the jewels today and was asking him the importance of the of the proportions of the crown and pavilion, depth etc (ideal proportions) and he basically says that it doesn't matter, as long as the cut is "good" to "very good" you won't be able to tell the difference, "even for him" he says. He said he wouldn't be able tell the difference compared to the "ideal" cuts I was referring too unless he looked under a microscope/idealscope whatevers.....he said as long as its a good or very good then color/clarity is your main concern...which as far as i know, has nothing to do with how much is shines.

So is he right, does it make that big a difference?? I have found a couple of great diamonds with whiteflash, talked to reps, fall withing the right proportions, scores well on the HCA Idealscope etc.... But starting to wonder if he is right, is all that just splitting hairs, can you even "tell" the difference between all the carefull attention to proportions, vs simply relying on a "good" to "very good" cut. The truth is you can save a lot of money if you don't worry about the cut too much....Help??

Thoughts, insights, etc. Appreciate it!!!

 

[farmer gal]

I used to have a very good cut diamond, and now I have an ideal cut diamond and I can by far tell which one is better comparing the two. The ideal cut sparkles soo much more. But that being said there are very good cuts that have an excellent HCA score so they are out there.

 

[shihtzulover]

I think that most people here will tell you that yes, there is a major difference. Whether or not you can perceive that though, is up to you. Can you look at 'ideal' cuts (or GIA 'excellent' cuts with HCA scores below 2) next to the 'very good' and 'good' cuts? If so, then this might be a good idea, so that you can form your own opinion. If you do this, make sure to look at them in all different types of lighting - diamonds can look so different when viewing them with different lighting sources, so they will look very different once they are taken out of the jewelry store spotlighting. Many stores will let you take them outside to view them (often with a security guard), and they also sometimes have different types of lighting in their side offices.

Good luck, and happy diamond shopping!

 

[swingirl]

Did your jeweler offer to show you excellent, very good and good cuts so you could compare them? Or doesn't he carry any ideal or excellent cuts because, heck, he can't tell the difference anyway? I am guessing he is not a gemologist. It would be good if you could visit a jeweler that carries GIA excellent or AGS ideal cuts and let your own eyes decide whether or not you can see any difference.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I don't think I'd have any trust in a jeweler who said cut does not matter. I believe it does matter. And I would rather know in my mind that I bought an ideal cut from WF and wouldn't ever have to second guess my decision. My first diamond was a "good" cut and it is certainly not nearly as pretty as my ideal cut stone.

 

[stci]

I don't think I'd have any trust in a jeweler who said cut does not matter. I believe it does matter. And I would rather know in my mind that I bought an ideal cut from WF and wouldn't ever have to second guess my decision. My first diamond was a "good" cut and it is certainly not nearly as pretty as my ideal cut stone.

I think he said IF the diamond had very good cut, It's not the same.

I don't know why you always want to compare cause in the real life, you never compare one diamond cut with another. If you like it, had a good cut, color and clarity It's ok for me. I don't think Its's really important to pay tons of extra money to have the perfect cut. Just my 2 cents.

 

[0-0-0]

I don't think it's anywhere close to splitting hairs until at least hitting AGS Ideal cut grade. I can easily see differences even among GIA Excellent cut stones, even before coming on Pricescope. But I think the more relevant questions are whether you can tell and whether you care enough to pay for the difference. The only way to find out is to go look at lots of stones.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Sylvie, the jeweler said that he couldn't tell the difference between good, very good, and ideal/excellent cut and downplayed the importance of cut. That, to me, meant he was saying cut did not really matter.

In the typical jewelry stores that I visited when I was looking for my new diamond, they did not have many or any ideal cut stones. So naturally they were promoting good and very good cut stones since that is all they had. That is probably the case here, I suspect.

 

[slg47]

People tell me my diamond is the 'sparkliest' diamond they have ever seen. I believe this is due solely to the fact that it is an AGS0. The best way to determine what is important to you is to see different diamonds in person in different lighting environments.

Here are some videos from GOG that illustrate cut

rounds
http://vimeo.com/2225754

cushions
http://vimeo.com/4050209

princesses
http://vimeo.com/2050679

radiants
http://vimeo.com/19766698

 

[stci]

Sylvie, the jeweler said that he couldn't tell the difference between good, very good, and ideal/excellent cut and downplayed the importance of cut. That, to me, meant he was saying cut did not really matter.

In the typical jewelry stores that I visited when I was looking for my new diamond, they did not have many or any ideal cut stones. So naturally they were promoting good and very good cut stones since that is all they had. That is probably the case here, I suspect.

Is this true to say there are only top specialists who can see difference between a good, very good or ideal cut with the naked eyes? I think it is and this is why I said if the diamond sparkle a lot (like the majority of buyer want) + good color and clarity this is a winner. I don't want to pay for something nobody can see! One more time, the cut really matter if and only if it's a bad cut but choose from diamond who have good cuts and more don't worth tons of money. Do you understand what I mean?

Example:

I have 3 diamonds to look at.

1- Very good cut, H color, VS1 clarity, 1 ct

2- Good cut, H color, VS1 clarity, 1 ct

3- Excellent cut, H color, VS1 clarity, 1 ct

Will I choose the #3? No! Cause I will pay a fortune for something that nobody can see with the naked eyes.

 

[crillman]

I think that most people here will tell you that yes, there is a major difference. Whether or not you can perceive that though, is up to you. Can you look at 'ideal' cuts (or GIA 'excellent' cuts with HCA scores below 2) next to the 'very good' and 'good' cuts? If so, then this might be a good idea, so that you can form your own opinion. If you do this, make sure to look at them in all different types of lighting - diamonds can look so different when viewing them with different lighting sources, so they will look very different once they are taken out of the jewelry store spotlighting. Many stores will let you take them outside to view them (often with a security guard), and they also sometimes have different types of lighting in their side offices.

Good luck, and happy diamond shopping!

Thank you!

 

[crillman]

Did your jeweler offer to show you excellent, very good and good cuts so you could compare them? Or doesn't he carry any ideal or excellent cuts because, heck, he can't tell the difference anyway? I am guessing he is not a gemologist. It would be good if you could visit a jeweler that carries GIA excellent or AGS ideal cuts and let your own eyes decide whether or not you can see any difference.

He does carry all types and cuts, and supposidly been a jewler at this place for 18 years. Maybe he is just at the point of his career where he doesn't want to deal with somebody who asks too many questions and there are enough people in the world who just by a diamond without any discrimination. Not clue....whats even weirder is that he presented a couple of diamonds my way and i said no, and then asked him to keep looking and he said no thanks......which leads me to believe he doesn't care about hte person who discriminates.

 

[crillman]

I used to have a very good cut diamond, and now I have an ideal cut diamond and I can by far tell which one is better comparing the two. The ideal cut sparkles soo much more. But that being said there are very good cuts that have an excellent HCA score so they are out there.

I do agree with the idea that not all diamonds have to be the ideal cut to get a good score with HCA or to have great brilliance, but makes sense that a diamond that is cut right would reflect more light.

 

[crillman]

I don't think I'd have any trust in a jeweler who said cut does not matter. I believe it does matter. And I would rather know in my mind that I bought an ideal cut from WF and wouldn't ever have to second guess my decision. My first diamond was a "good" cut and it is certainly not nearly as pretty as my ideal cut stone.

I think he said IF the diamond had very good cut, It's not the same.

I don't know why you always want to compare cause in the real life, you never compare one diamond cut with another. If you like it, had a good cut, color and clarity It's ok for me. I don't think Its's really important to pay tons of extra money to have the perfect cut. Just my 2 cents.

I agree, I dont' need to spend tons of money for the "perfect" cut. But I want to make sure I get the most for my money. I wouldn't want to spend the price of a lexus for a toyota, if that makes sense.

 

[crillman]

Sylvie, the jeweler said that he couldn't tell the difference between good, very good, and ideal/excellent cut and downplayed the importance of cut. That, to me, meant he was saying cut did not really matter.

In the typical jewelry stores that I visited when I was looking for my new diamond, they did not have many or any ideal cut stones. So naturally they were promoting good and very good cut stones since that is all they had. That is probably the case here, I suspect.

Good point, and I do think he is used to the average uninformed consumer coming in just buying the "pretty diamond". That would make a lot of sense to me.....that and that he has been doing it toooooo long and doesn't have the time to care about somebody like me who is going to scrutinize the diamond, he gets enough business from the average shopper.

 

[crillman]

People tell me my diamond is the 'sparkliest' diamond they have ever seen. I believe this is due solely to the fact that it is an AGS0. The best way to determine what is important to you is to see different diamonds in person in different lighting environments.

Here are some videos from GOG that illustrate cut

rounds
http://vimeo.com/2225754

cushions
http://vimeo.com/4050209

princesses
http://vimeo.com/2050679

radiants
http://vimeo.com/19766698

WOW....great video, I'm looking at a round at that makes it real clear. Of course, I would be interested to know what they consider a "common" round....

 

[0-0-0]

Some more videos that may help, specific to rounds:

GIA Excellent vs GIA Very Good
http://vimeo.com/2901034

Comparing GIA Ex's of various flavors
http://vimeo.com/7826313

Hearts & Arrows to Non H&A (AGS Ideal/GIA Ex)
http://vimeo.com/4891812

 

[Pecel]

Have the same problem. Recently I've visited about 10 jewelers (pawn shops, brick-and-mortar jewelers, who for sure do not sell 3xEx H&A) and they all assured me the cut actually doesn't matter. After reading various sites I don't believe them anymore. Besides, I truly cannot afford D, IF stone. What is affordable for me is maybe H-I, SI1, but beacause 3xEx is not as expensive as I thought, I'm going to buy the perfect cut stone. I think it will be a better engagement diamond than e.g. G VS2 3xVG. Correct me if I'm wrong

 

[stone-cold11]

I have 3 diamonds to look at.

1- Very good cut, H color, VS1 clarity, 1 ct

2- Good cut, H color, VS1 clarity, 1 ct

3- Excellent cut, H color, VS1 clarity, 1 ct

Will I choose the #3? No! Cause I will pay a fortune for something that nobody can see with the naked eyes.

Depends on the information available. What if the good cut is with a very thick girdle, looking like a 0.8c stone instead of a 1c? What if the Ex cut is actually in the steep/deep proportions and the VG cut proportions is actually in the AGS Ideal cut range? Everything depends. Your example is useless as is.

The problem is you are buying for yourself, you can decide what you like best and buy from there. For guys, we usually are buying a proposal ring, as a gift. You want to buy a crappy stone for that?

 

[yennyfire]

My advice would be this: if you're not comfortable with what you're being told (and I DO think cut is critical), go somewhere else. I'd also make sure that you purchase from a place that has a 30 day return/exchange policy and I'd also pay with a credit card. That way, you have *some* recourse if you (or FI) aren't thrilled with what you've selected.

I also want to clarify something that Pecel said:

Besides, I truly cannot afford D, IF stone. What is affordable for me is maybe H-I, SI1, but beacause 3xEx is not as expensive as I thought, I'm going to buy the perfect cut stone. I think it will be a better engagement diamond than e.g. G VS2 3xVG. Correct me if I'm wrong

I think that you are confusing cut for clarity here. I would agree that you don't necessarily need to pay for a VVS/VS1 stone, but I would argue that getting an excellent cut is critical. If you get an eye clean (to your standards) stone (i.e. SI1 or VS2) that is ideal cut versus an eye clean stone that is a "good" cut, I would guess that you would be able to see a difference if you compare them side to side (or even on their own). Cut is king and is the one "C" I wouldn't compromise on.

 

[oldminer]

There is no question at all that the top cut range of diamonds is visibly differnet than lower cut grades. Most people will find that the top grades do appeal more to them than the other grades, but not everyone will see it that way. On the other hand, the vast majority of people buying a diamond today choose to purchase a diamond that would not score at the top end of cut. Some buy on impulse and just want a "diamond", some don't want to spend the time to shop properly, some don't care enough to learn about it. A growing minority have found out a considerabe amount of information on "cut". They understand the subject better than many retail jewelers and gemologists. I know its difficult to undertand how people involved in the diamond trade don't understand their main product, but it is a fact that keeps the diamond business mired in the 20th century style of business.

Diamonds which don't meet ideal cut standards may look better to some clients than top cut stones. I suppose that beauty is in the eye of each beholder and that no one wants you to spend money on a diamond you don't like as much as another stone. What you choose should be a personal choice, but comparing finely cut diamonds to stones graded lower is a smart thing to do before you make a decision. You can't predict what you'll like the most until you examine a meaningful sample. You can buy an ideally cut diamond pretty much sight unseen, but if you want the widest range of choices, then you should widen the range of cut quality you compare to better understand what it is all about.

The entire business of diamonds is all about splitting hairs. Nothing else I'm aware of has such a finely tuned grading system that has such a strong effect on market value. Diamonds are one of the few items that are generally not sold in bulk to consumers, but are priced one at a time and under an arbitrary scheme which isn't always totally logical. Splitting hairs is crucial to the process of diamond valuation and selection.

 

[yennyfire]

Pecel, I think I read your post wrong, I apologize.

 

[marcy]

What we did when we first went shopping for a diamond was ask them to bring out a 0, 1, 2 make (ideal, very good and good) but not tell us which was which. We both zeroed in on the ideal cut immediately. Then we compared all their ideal cuts to pick out my diamond. That way you can see which one appeals to you.

 

[MissGotRocks]

Jewelers want to sell what they have in stock. A lot of them don't have top of the line ideal cut stones because the public at large doesn't want to pay the price for them if they don't appreciate the difference. Lots of folks have never seen the difference and being asked to pay premium is just something they're not interested in doing. I've seen several stores 'dumbing' down their stones with less than stellar cuts, EGL certs instead of GIA/AGS certs, etc. My guess is that the diamond price increases force them to carry what appeals to the average diamond buyer. Most diamond buyers are average; many folks here have learned to appreciate the difference thus the 'splitting hairs' over well cut stones.

If your jeweler had AGS0 stones to offer as well as very good or good cut stones, I'd be willing to consider that he was being fair in his opinion that cut wasn't everything. I don't think this is the case.

There are tons of pictures on this forum of excellent cut diamonds. Look at them and compare them to what you are being shown. If you can see a difference, then the proof lies within your own eyes. Whether or not you choose to spend the additional money on them is your choice and like all other purchases, you have to decide on which factors are most important to you.

 

[crillman]

There is no question at all that the top cut range of diamonds is visibly differnet than lower cut grades. Most people will find that the top grades do appeal more to them than the other grades, but not everyone will see it that way. On the other hand, the vast majority of people buying a diamond today choose to purchase a diamond that would not score at the top end of cut. Some buy on impulse and just want a "diamond", some don't want to spend the time to shop properly, some don't care enough to learn about it. A growing minority have found out a considerabe amount of information on "cut". They understand the subject better than many retail jewelers and gemologists. I know its difficult to undertand how people involved in the diamond trade don't understand their main product, but it is a fact that keeps the diamond business mired in the 20th century style of business.

Diamonds which don't meet ideal cut standards may look better to some clients than top cut stones. I suppose that beauty is in the eye of each beholder and that no one wants you to spend money on a diamond you don't like as much as another stone. What you choose should be a personal choice, but comparing finely cut diamonds to stones graded lower is a smart thing to do before you make a decision. You can't predict what you'll like the most until you examine a meaningful sample. You can buy an ideally cut diamond pretty much sight unseen, but if you want the widest range of choices, then you should widen the range of cut quality you compare to better understand what it is all about.

The entire business of diamonds is all about splitting hairs. Nothing else I'm aware of has such a finely tuned grading system that has such a strong effect on market value. Diamonds are one of the few items that are generally not sold in bulk to consumers, but are priced one at a time and under an arbitrary scheme which isn't always totally logical. Splitting hairs is crucial to the process of diamond valuation and selection.

Thank you, I think that really makes sense and about sums it up. Although, from what I have seen so far, splitting hairs is a real thing, but ony at the top of the top, at least from what I have observed.

 

[crillman]

What we did when we first went shopping for a diamond was ask them to bring out a 0, 1, 2 make (ideal, very good and good) but not tell us which was which. We both zeroed in on the ideal cut immediately. Then we compared all their ideal cuts to pick out my diamond. That way you can see which one appeals to you.

That would be nice, but probably going to buy online....maybe have them pick??